A second referrendum

A forum for all things Cardiff City

Would you now trust the British Parliament to hold an honest and true referrendum on the EU ?

1. Yes
25
30%
2. No
57
70%
 
Total votes : 82

Re: A second referrendum

Postby WelshBluebird » Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:40 pm

epping blue wrote:So your saying, we voted to leave so now the question is how we leave ? Mays deal or no deal.


Or any number of other options that could still be on the table if it wasn't for May's "red lines".

The reality is, the deal May has got is basically the best that anyone could have got when you consider the red lines that she put in place.

If you take those red lines away, whilst still leaving the EU, there are other options there. The problem is that we should have decided as a country what we wanted BEFORE starting article 50, and not after.
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Re: A second referrendum

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Re: A second referrendum

Postby T1JMO » Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:41 pm

Bluebirdforlife77 wrote:The Second vote should be.

A. Remain in eu.

B. Leave with no deal.

Simple let’s see what the nation really wants.


It's not a best of 3! The only vote left is this:



A) Sign the £40bn deal

OR

B) Leave with No Deal
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Re: A second referrendum

Postby pembroke allan » Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:52 pm

Bluebirdforlife77 wrote:The Second vote should be.

A. Remain in eu.

B. Leave with no deal.

Simple let’s see what the nation really wants.




The nation voted leave what part of that is unclear? You are proposing to have same referendum again just like Ireland and several other countries who's politicians didn't accept the democratic will of the people they had several referendums until they got the result they wanted! Your advocating the same. Another referendum should only have questions on leaving as then democracy would have prevailed .
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Re: A second referrendum

Postby T1JMO » Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:03 pm

pembroke allan wrote:
Bluebirdforlife77 wrote:The Second vote should be.

A. Remain in eu.

B. Leave with no deal.

Simple let’s see what the nation really wants.




The nation voted leave what part of that is unclear? You are proposing to have same referendum again just like Ireland and several other countries who's politicians didn't accept the democratic will of the people they had several referendums until they got the result they wanted! Your advocating the same. Another referendum should only have questions on leaving as then democracy would have prevailed .


Standard Remainer logic 'We don't agree with the democratic vote, let's do it again until we do"

The only question left on the table is "Deal or No Deal?"
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Re: A second referrendum

Postby pembroke allan » Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:12 pm

T1JMO wrote:
pembroke allan wrote:
Bluebirdforlife77 wrote:The Second vote should be.

A. Remain in eu.

B. Leave with no deal.

Simple let’s see what the nation really wants.




The nation voted leave what part of that is unclear? You are proposing to have same referendum again just like Ireland and several other countries who's politicians didn't accept the democratic will of the people they had several referendums until they got the result they wanted! Your advocating the same. Another referendum should only have questions on leaving as then democracy would have prevailed .


Standard Remainer logic 'We don't agree with the democratic vote, let's do it again until we do"

The only question left on the table is "Deal or No Deal?"



It was wasn't it? Been saying all along a 2nd referendum if they want one should only have questions on leaving as then the democratic will off the people will be served :thumbup:
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Re: A second referrendum

Postby rumpo kid » Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:23 pm

Once all the spotty kids in the Labour Party realise Corbyn/Momentum don’t want a 2nd Referendum, and want to leave the EU, cue the fireworks..
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Re: A second referrendum

Postby dogfound » Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:27 pm

WelshBluebird wrote:
dogfound wrote:WE have literally no idea...correct you do not.
its hard to believe that a group of people that generally potray themselves as the nations brain trust can not grasp the meaning of a single word. LEAVE. but eh oh.


Oh so I don't know but you magically do know exactly what kind of Brexit 17 million people want?
Ok in that case I ask how many leave voters wanted a Norway / Switzerland type deal?
How many wanted something like May's deal?
How many want no deal at all?
Oh you don't know? Thought not!




do you know the meaning of leave ? thought not
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Re: A second referrendum

Postby pembroke allan » Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:39 pm

dogfound wrote:
WelshBluebird wrote:
dogfound wrote:WE have literally no idea...correct you do not.
its hard to believe that a group of people that generally potray themselves as the nations brain trust can not grasp the meaning of a single word. LEAVE. but eh oh.


Oh so I don't know but you magically do know exactly what kind of Brexit 17 million people want?
Ok in that case I ask how many leave voters wanted a Norway / Switzerland type deal?
How many wanted something like May's deal?
How many want no deal at all?
Oh you don't know? Thought not!




do you know the meaning of leave ? thought not


That's what I thought leave means leave in what form didn't matter :old:
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Re: A second referrendum

Postby WelshBluebird » Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:54 pm

dogfound wrote:do you know the meaning of leave ? thought not


It means no longer being a member of the EU.

It says nothing about the single market, the customs union, freedom of movement, the NI border, EU citizens rights in the UK, UK citizens rights in the EU, trade between the UK and the EU, flights between the UK and the EU, the ability of British airlines to operate internal EU flights, Euratom, etc etc etc. All of those things have to be decided somehow, the decisions made will impact our future relationship with the EU and member countries, even among leaver voters there are different opinions of what we should do for many of those things, and they all have to be decided before we leave the EU in 2 months time.

pembroke allan wrote:That's what I thought leave means leave in what form didn't matter :old:


Well except it does matter. For businesses, for people who want to travel abroad, for supply lines to supermarkets and shops, for foreign tourists who want to visit in the UK, for EU citizens who already live in the UK, for UK citizens who live in the EU etc etc.

If it doesn't matter to you then how about we leave the EU but stay in the customs union, the single market, continue with freedom of movement etc etc? Or would you not be happy with that? In which case that is exactly why these things need to be discussed and decided upon. If you are happy for MP's to make those decisions for you then fine, but I am not. I believe the British people should have a voice in those things.
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Re: A second referrendum

Postby thomasblue » Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:25 pm

Its no shock that the people shouting for a second referendum are the ones who stand to gain from it not possibly lose

The SNP only want it so it sets a presitent for them to have a second independance vote.

Labour want it so they can call a General Election and move into #10

I dont particulary like Teresa May but at least she is trying and understands democracy. Whether we like the version of brexit or not
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Re: A second referrendum

Postby dogfound » Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:49 pm

WelshBluebird wrote:
dogfound wrote:do you know the meaning of leave ? thought not


It means no longer being a member of the EU.

It says nothing about the single market, the customs union, freedom of movement, the NI border, EU citizens rights in the UK, UK citizens rights in the EU, trade between the UK and the EU, flights between the UK and the EU, the ability of British airlines to operate internal EU flights, Euratom, etc etc etc. All of those things have to be decided somehow, the decisions made will impact our future relationship with the EU and member countries, even among leaver voters there are different opinions of what we should do for many of those things, and they all have to be decided before we leave the EU in 2 months time.

pembroke allan wrote:That's what I thought leave means leave in what form didn't matter :old:


Well except it does matter. For businesses, for people who want to travel abroad, for supply lines to supermarkets and shops, for foreign tourists who want to visit in the UK, for EU citizens who already live in the UK, for UK citizens who live in the EU etc etc.

If it doesn't matter to you then how about we leave the EU but stay in the customs union, the single market, continue with freedom of movement etc etc? Or would you not be happy with that? In which case that is exactly why these things need to be discussed and decided upon. If you are happy for MP's to make those decisions for you then fine, but I am not. I believe the British people should have a voice in those things.




its like a general election ,you might have voted for the party that ends up in government but not agree with all their policies. and no doubt if that party has received 17 million votes it does not mean 17 million people want the exact same thing but it does mean it is that party they want in government. nobody in their right mind from a party that lost would then suggest another vote with multiple choice questions for which bits of policy they want from the new government. its laughable just as your nonsense is.

have a feeling you know this because it takes so little thought.?
btw knowing a result is not magical. not accepting a result is anti democratic or down right stupid though.
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Re: A second referrendum

Postby diggerjames » Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:06 pm

I hope not. The first one was badly set up. In a democracy if you had such a close vote the result would not be black or white it would be a messy grey colour and we would all have the chance to vote again in 4-5 years time.
So I my opinion you cannot have first past the post for such a major decision where there is no coming back from, such as Brexit or say Scottish/Welsh Independence. You cannot ignore the view of 49.9% of the voters just because you reached 50.1% that is not democracy. This will lead to unrest and in the case of Independence who knows where it would stop.
In any club or organisation you will find in their constitution that a major decision will require a substantial majority to carry the vote. So I believe the first referendum should have had a winning post of at least 60% so that the losing side would accept that they are in the minority.
By the way I voted to leave, not with a deal just to leave. However I am not comfortable with such a narrow winning margin.
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Re: A second referrendum

Postby WelshBluebird » Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:07 pm

For those who oppose a 2nd vote, have a guess who said the following:
"We could have two referendums. As it happens, it might make more sense to have the second referendum after the renegotiation is completed".

Or who said this:
"n a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way"

I bet it'll surprise you considering their positions now!

dogfound wrote:its like a general election ,you might have voted for the party that ends up in government but not agree with all their policies. and no doubt if that party has received 17 million votes it does not mean 17 million people want the exact same thing but it does mean it is that party they want in government. nobody in their right mind from a party that lost would then suggest another vote with multiple choice questions for which bits of policy they want from the new government. its laughable just as your nonsense is.

have a feeling you know this because it takes so little thought.?
btw knowing a result is not magical. not accepting a result is anti democratic or down right stupid though.


1 - Referendums are very different to general elections.
2 - Yes, many people would have voted for one "side" for many different reasons. That is exactly the problem! Anyone trying to implement Brexit has literally no idea what the people who voted leave really want. Do they want to leave with no deal, do they want a close relationship like Norway / Switzerland?
3 - The answer to 2 is what a new vote would give us. I am not saying we put every bit of policy to the public. But surely we should be able to give the general direction you want? If you are worried about any "leave" vote getting diluted then use a numbered preference system where voters can put in order their preferred situations. That would give you a much better feeling for what the country actually wants.
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Re: A second referrendum

Postby Sven » Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:16 pm

WelshBluebird wrote:For those who oppose a 2nd vote, have a guess who said the following:
"We could have two referendums. As it happens, it might make more sense to have the second referendum after the renegotiation is completed".

Or who said this:
"n a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way"

I bet it'll surprise you considering their positions now!

dogfound wrote:its like a general election ,you might have voted for the party that ends up in government but not agree with all their policies. and no doubt if that party has received 17 million votes it does not mean 17 million people want the exact same thing but it does mean it is that party they want in government. nobody in their right mind from a party that lost would then suggest another vote with multiple choice questions for which bits of policy they want from the new government. its laughable just as your nonsense is.

have a feeling you know this because it takes so little thought.?
btw knowing a result is not magical. not accepting a result is anti democratic or down right stupid though.


1 - Referendums are very different to general elections.
2 - Yes, many people would have voted for one "side" for many different reasons. That is exactly the problem! Anyone trying to implement Brexit has literally no idea what the people who voted leave really want. Do they want to leave with no deal, do they want a close relationship like Norway / Switzerland?
3 - The answer to 2 is what a new vote would give us. I am not saying we put every bit of policy to the public. But surely we should be able to give the general direction you want? If you are worried about any "leave" vote getting diluted then use a numbered preference system where voters can put in order their preferred situations. That would give you a much better feeling for what the country actually wants.


What did the people who voted 'Remain' want as a unit, then? :?

They voted that way for many reasons too, but you're suggesting only Remainers had a clear view of the future when it's clear that wasn't the case; hence (for starters) David Cameron's attempt to change our relationship in 2015 which showed the UK Government wasn't 'happy' with things

For me, after what the EU has done to us in negotiations the real 'Brits' are the ones who have the courage to 'give it a go' rather than watch this (and other) countries identities be ebbed away by a not so subtle EU machine that cares not for you but for itself!

NO to a new vote and YES to carrying out the will of the majority in the way Cameron said would happen! :ayatollah:
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Re: A second referrendum

Postby pembroke allan » Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:24 pm

Sven wrote:
WelshBluebird wrote:For those who oppose a 2nd vote, have a guess who said the following:
"We could have two referendums. As it happens, it might make more sense to have the second referendum after the renegotiation is completed".

Or who said this:
"n a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way"

I bet it'll surprise you considering their positions now!

dogfound wrote:its like a general election ,you might have voted for the party that ends up in government but not agree with all their policies. and no doubt if that party has received 17 million votes it does not mean 17 million people want the exact same thing but it does mean it is that party they want in government. nobody in their right mind from a party that lost would then suggest another vote with multiple choice questions for which bits of policy they want from the new government. its laughable just as your nonsense is.

have a feeling you know this because it takes so little thought.?
btw knowing a result is not magical. not accepting a result is anti democratic or down right stupid though.


1 - Referendums are very different to general elections.
2 - Yes, many people would have voted for one "side" for many different reasons. That is exactly the problem! Anyone trying to implement Brexit has literally no idea what the people who voted leave really want. Do they want to leave with no deal, do they want a close relationship like Norway / Switzerland?
3 - The answer to 2 is what a new vote would give us. I am not saying we put every bit of policy to the public. But surely we should be able to give the general direction you want? If you are worried about any "leave" vote getting diluted then use a numbered preference system where voters can put in order their preferred situations. That would give you a much better feeling for what the country actually wants.


What did the people who voted 'Remain' want as a unit, then? :?

They voted that way for many reasons too, but you're suggesting only Remainers had a clear view of the future when it's clear that wasn't the case; hence (for starters) David Cameron's attempt to change our relationship in 2015 which showed the UK Government wasn't 'happy' with things

For me, after what the EU has done to us in negotiations the real 'Brits' are the ones who have the courage to 'give it a go' rather than watch this (and other) countries identities be ebbed away by a not so subtle EU machine that cares not for you but for itself!

NO to a new vote and YES to carrying out the will of the majority in the way Cameron said would happen! :ayatollah:



The EU clearly state that they want a federal Europe which means handing over all countries economic and social procceses no say on immigration ect ect and of course the euro currency will be mandatory. That's what remaining in EU will mean if a new vote was to remain! Any deal is far better than losing our sovereignty to unelected mandarins in Brussels :thumbup:
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Re: A second referrendum

Postby WelshBluebird » Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:40 pm

Sven wrote:What did the people who voted 'Remain' want as a unit, then? :?


They voted that way for many reasons too, but you're suggesting only Remainers had a clear view of the future when it's clear that wasn't the case; hence (for starters) David Cameron's attempt to change our relationship in 2015 which showed
the UK Government wasn't 'happy' with things[/quote]

Which is why any such vote like we had in 2016 and like I think we should have to actually decide what we should do should be a multiple choice rank by preference vote as is used for quite a few other voting systems in the UK. You can then get an actual real picture of what people want.

Sven wrote:For me, after what the EU has done to us in negotiations


Errr like what? They haven't done anything to us for crying out loud.

Sven wrote:NO to a new vote and YES to carrying out the will of the majority in the way Cameron said would happen! :ayatollah:


Ok so what is the will of the majority? Leave with May's deal? Leave without a deal? Leave with a deal similar to Norway? OR don't you know?

pembroke allan wrote:The EU clearly state that they want a federal Europe which means handing over all countries economic and social procceses no say on immigration ect ect and of course the euro currency will be mandatory. That's what remaining in EU will mean if a new vote was to remain! Any deal is far better than losing our sovereignty to unelected mandarins in Brussels :thumbup:


Such a situation is much more likely with us out of the EU than in it.
People seem all too willing to forget we actually held a position of power in the EU. If they wanted to force us to use the Euro for example, they already would have.
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Re: A second referrendum

Postby snoopystorm » Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:19 pm

The EU see the U.K. as a cash cow, it’s our money that is basically keeping them afloat. The deal offered benefits them a lot more than it benefits the UK. The government was right to reject the deal, now we leave on the 29th with No Deal, they are not going to budge on the deal, even Macron has gone live and said we have 3 options but the EU is under no pressure to negotiate or support the U.K. government.

According to Macron we

1: leave with No Deal

2: we ask to negotiate a new deal

3: extends from 2 where we ask for a longer leaving period and work towards a new deal that is fairer for all
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Re: A second referrendum

Postby WelshBluebird » Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:24 pm

snoopystorm wrote:The EU see the U.K. as a cash cow, it’s our money that is basically keeping them afloat


The UK as a whole? We do pay more in than we get back directly. But that ignores the benefits of being in the EU. As for a cash cow? Hardly.

And when you look at Wales specifically? Wales gets back more than what we pay. Sure Westminster could use the money it will have to help us out instead of the EU doing so, but is anyone here naive enough to think Wales will actually see any of that money?

snoopystorm wrote:The deal offered benefits them a lot more than it benefits the UK


How exactly?
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Re: A second referrendum

Postby Bluebirdforlife77 » Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:26 pm

pembroke allan wrote:
Bluebirdforlife77 wrote:The Second vote should be.

A. Remain in eu.

B. Leave with no deal.

Simple let’s see what the nation really wants.




The nation voted leave what part of that is unclear? You are proposing to have same referendum again just like Ireland and several other countries who's politicians didn't accept the democratic will of the people they had several referendums until they got the result they wanted! Your advocating the same. Another referendum should only have questions on leaving as then democracy would have prevailed .


It’s all very unclear that’s why we in the mess we are. I voted leave and leave alone. Not with a deal half in half out that’s not leave. You may be happy being a half leave half remained but I wasn’t.
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Re: A second referrendum

Postby snoopystorm » Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:27 pm

Worth a read....
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Re: A second referrendum

Postby WelshBluebird » Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:29 pm

Bluebirdforlife77 wrote:It’s all very unclear that’s why we in the mess we are. I voted leave and leave alone. Not with a deal half in half out that’s not leave. You may be happy being a half leave half remained but I wasn’t.


How would it not be leave? We would no longer be members of the EU. Hence we would have left.
Half remained would be a deal like Norway / Switzerland - a much closer relationship to the EU than May's deal.
So again, for god knows what number time, I ask what was wrong with May's deal that you don't like?
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Re: A second referrendum

Postby snoopystorm » Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:30 pm

WelshBluebird wrote:
snoopystorm wrote:The EU see the U.K. as a cash cow, it’s our money that is basically keeping them afloat


The UK as a whole? We do pay more in than we get back directly. But that ignores the benefits of being in the EU. As for a cash cow? Hardly.

And when you look at Wales specifically? Wales gets back more than what we pay. Sure Westminster could use the money it will have to help us out instead of the EU doing so, but is anyone here naive enough to think Wales will actually see any of that money?

snoopystorm wrote:The deal offered benefits them a lot more than it benefits the UK


How exactly?



We’re in the top 4 countries paying the highest amount into the EU, the deal offered means the EU still get the financial gain with no financial return, where as the government could redistribute the money the EU wants back into the UK
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Re: A second referrendum

Postby WelshBluebird » Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:30 pm

snoopystorm wrote:Worth a read....


Also worth noting the source. A eurosceptic "think tank" (read "lobby group").
No evidence in that piece at all for the numbers being claimed.
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Re: A second referrendum

Postby WelshBluebird » Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:31 pm

snoopystorm wrote:We’re in the top 4 countries paying the highest amount into the EU, the deal offered means the EU still get the financial gain with no financial return, where as the government could redistribute the money the EU wants back into the UK


Errr what?

The deal means nothing of the sort.
It means we would pay the amount we are committed to pay for the next couple of years, yes. But we already committed to paying that. We can't all of a sudden say we aren't. Contracts don't work like that. Regardless it certainly doesn't mean what you are claiming.
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Re: A second referrendum

Postby Bluebirdforlife77 » Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:32 pm

WelshBluebird wrote:
Bluebirdforlife77 wrote:It’s all very unclear that’s why we in the mess we are. I voted leave and leave alone. Not with a deal half in half out that’s not leave. You may be happy being a half leave half remained but I wasn’t.


How would it not be leave? We would no longer be members of the EU. Hence we would have left.
Half remained would be a deal like Norway / Switzerland - a much closer relationship to the EU than May's deal.
So again, for god knows what number time, I ask what was wrong with May's deal that you don't like?


Because when I voted leave I wanted out no deal no nothing just leave like was promised. Now the deal is half in half out it’s not leave not even close.
To answer your question everything is wrong with it.
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Re: A second referrendum

Postby snoopystorm » Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:34 pm

WelshBluebird wrote:
snoopystorm wrote:We’re in the top 4 countries paying the highest amount into the EU, the deal offered means the EU still get the financial gain with no financial return, where as the government could redistribute the money the EU wants back into the UK


Errr what?

The deal means nothing of the sort.
It means we would pay the amount we are committed to pay for the next couple of years, yes. But we already committed to paying that. We can't all of a sudden say we aren't. Contracts don't work like that. Regardless it certainly doesn't mean what you are claiming.


Junker already stated that when we leave the funding to the Welsh farmers ceases.... I hear this on a daily basis, so why pay in if they’re not paying out???

I say leave with no deal and they can sort their own finances out without our input
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Re: A second referrendum

Postby pembroke allan » Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:34 pm

snoopystorm wrote:Worth a read....




Said all along germany France are petrified of a no deal as it will bankrupt half of the EU, why do you tThink they are hinting at a no brexit deal? Everyone knows we will be financially better of out of EU in long term and not strapped to a lot of semi bankrupt states like Italy greece and Ireland :old:
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Re: A second referrendum

Postby snoopystorm » Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:34 pm

Bluebirdforlife77 wrote:
WelshBluebird wrote:
Bluebirdforlife77 wrote:It’s all very unclear that’s why we in the mess we are. I voted leave and leave alone. Not with a deal half in half out that’s not leave. You may be happy being a half leave half remained but I wasn’t.


How would it not be leave? We would no longer be members of the EU. Hence we would have left.
Half remained would be a deal like Norway / Switzerland - a much closer relationship to the EU than May's deal.
So again, for god knows what number time, I ask what was wrong with May's deal that you don't like?


Because when I voted leave I wanted out no deal no nothing just leave like was promised. Now the deal is half in half out it’s not leave not even close.
To answer your question everything is wrong with it.



Same as I feel
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Re: A second referrendum

Postby WelshBluebird » Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:35 pm

Bluebirdforlife77 wrote:
Because when I voted leave I wanted out no deal no nothing just leave like was promised. Now the deal is half in half out it’s not leave not even close.


Nothing was promised though. Leave just meant no longer be a member of the EU. It could still mean a whole load of other things. That is why some people want a second vote - to work out what options people actually wanted.

And how is it half in half out.

Bluebirdforlife77 wrote:To answer your question everything is wrong with it.


Care to give an example?
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Re: A second referrendum

Postby WelshBluebird » Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:36 pm

snoopystorm wrote:Junker already stated that when we leave the funding to the Welsh farmers ceases.... I hear this on a daily basis, so why pay in if they’re not paying out???

I say leave with no deal and they can sort their own finances out without our input


Err well yes of course it would cease. That funding is as part of us being a EU member. Why on earth would we still get that funding once out of the EU?

And why pay in? Because we have committed to. Think of it like a contact. We have already promised to pay that money.
WelshBluebird
 
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