Independence

Let's just remember that Leanne Wood isn't calling for an independence referendum. She is calling for a national conversation of the way forward.

Region of England, independence or everything in between. Surely that is a valid and sensible discussion to have and not let English elites do it for us again!

Without trying to flog a dead horse by keeping this thread going, I will add that the sleeping beast of English identity will not slumber through another ScotRef.

Polls show that it is rising, with UKIP likely targeting it by campaigning for an English parliament.

This will be interesting cos the ‘god save the queen’ types in Wales will no longer be able to hide behind their Britishness

Why would we want independence? We are one of the poorest countries in Europe. We will be ruled by austerity-driven, banker- benefiting Tories for years to come.
We export water and energy and are actually self-sufficient in terms of agriculture.
They closed down the pits, ironworks ( with a few exceptions) and left us with very little in terms of manufacturing.

Why wouldn't we want independence.?.....We have nothing to lose, except Westminster cuts and a class-ridden society.

Let's have a laugh! who's paying for wag? who's paying for nhs? Who's paying the benefits? The List is endless!! ohh I know who's going to pay for all these things the workers in higher tax 50% of income more, haven't even mentioned the companies who will bale out of Wales ? Westminster gives us many billions ££££s which Welsh people will have to find? Self sufficient my arse, like said got to laugh?

All the Nationalists post is meaningless empty rhetoric about evil Saxons and Tory bankers, not one of you has set out how an independent Wales would function, no economic argument, no details of what type of industry Wales would have, in fact nothing of substance at all. Here's the thing bankers are greedy bastards irrespective of their nationality, a Welsh CEO will not be anymore generous to his workers than an English one, a Welsh politician will not be anymore honest than an English one. Do you really think everything would change for the ordinary man if Wales was "free".

All the Nationalists post is meaningless empty rhetoric about evil Saxons and Tory bankers, not one of you has set out how an independent Wales would function, no economic argument, no details of what type of industry Wales would have, in fact nothing of substance at all. Here's the thing bankers are greedy bastards irrespective of their nationality, a Welsh CEO will not be anymore generous to his workers than an English one, a Welsh politician will not be anymore honest than an English one. Do you really think everything would change for the ordinary man if Wales was "free".

Totally agree

All the Nationalists post is meaningless empty rhetoric about evil Saxons and Tory bankers, not one of you has set out how an independent Wales would function, no economic argument, no details of what type of industry Wales would have, in fact nothing of substance at all. Here's the thing bankers are greedy bastards irrespective of their nationality, a Welsh CEO will not be anymore generous to his workers than an English one, a Welsh politician will not be anymore honest than an English one. Do you really think everything would change for the ordinary man if Wales was "free".

I think Adam Price covers lots of your point in this excellent essay.

Welsh independence has long been something of a minority sport.
Indeed, to have spent most of my adult life – and perhaps even more surprisingly – a good chunk of my childhood – thinking about, dreaming about, writing about the independence of my country – is to mark me out as a little bit odd, let’s be frank.
However, I’ve often pondered the fact that in most other countries it would be the other way round: not believing in the independence of your country would be a strange position to take.
I guess that’s why the number of independent countries continues to rise at an accelerating pace: of the almost 200 sovereign states in the world today over half achieved their independence since World War II.
Being a stateless nation isn’t that much fun to be honest, and that’s why a good proportion of the 60 or so nations left in the ‘still-colonised club’ are queuing up to “yexit”. But not so far we Welsh? Why does the rest of the world view independence so differently from us? And could this change?
Well, to answer the last question I’d start by saying this. There’s a tendency for discussions on Welsh independence to divide along lines that seem to suggest either it will be easy or that it will be impossible.
Neither of these statements are true, of course, and they perhaps reflect that the issue often falls prey to closed-mind thinking and pre-determined conclusions. Honesty alert here. There are some really difficult, thorny issues that we will need to solve, both on our journey towards independence and in the years following. But though they are significant, and must not be underestimated, they should not be exaggerated either.
Let’s take one of them, the current fiscal deficit (according to the most detailed analysis to date) of around £15bn a year. Now that deficit is a serious issue and reflects Wales’ underlying lackluster economic performance in recent years (of which more in a second). But what that figure most decidedly is not is the fiscal balance of a post-independence Wales.
As analysis conducted by the respected Common Weal think tank in Scotland has argued, that deficit is slashed by billions when we take into account a whole series of factors which would apply in the case of an actually independent state.
This includes the fact that UK state pensions accumulated up to the point of independence would remain the responsibility of the successor Westminster state; that contribution to past debt repayments would be reduced by an agreement over the distribution of net assets; that expenditure on things like defence would be much lower etc.

This doesn’t eliminate the deficit but it brings it closer to levels comparable to that which the UK is itself currently funding as a percentage of national income: and no-one is arguing the UK can’t be independent, pre or post-Brexit.
The deficit argument is one example of a particularly Welsh complex: the inverted self-confidence of a nation that is convinced that it cannot be a success. This is so deeply ingrained that beliefs – that we are too small or too poor to be independent – appear to us self-evident facts even when contradicted by the world we see around us.

Of the top 20 richest countries in the world today, 14 of them are small countries. Far from being too poor to be independent, doesn’t the logic point in the opposite direction: it’s our very lack of independence – and the ability to be agile and innovative, using the full range of tools and policy levers that only the independent nation has at its disposal – that has condemned our people to inter-generational poverty.
And on certain indices – trade in goods, for example – it’s Britain that’s in massive deficit not us.
Beyond the raw data of the polls I detect that people are increasingly open to the idea of Welsh independence, perhaps at this stage just as a dream, an alternative reality like the imaginary independent Wales in the novels of Jasper Fforde or Malcolm Pryce.

Welcome to the world of the indy-curious, to quote a phrase of Wales’ most interesting political movement of the moment, Yes Cymru. To see if you belong in their ranks then conduct a quick thought experiment: imagine by some miracle of medical science you’re transported, mind and body intact, to Wales in the year 2050. (God knows, some of us reading this may actually get there.)

And imagine that this Wales is independent. Does your heart miss a beat with a mini throb of pride – bloody hell, we did it! – or a sense of sadness and loss?
And imagine that when you open your eyes you see a Wales that may not be the richest in the world – Singapore perhaps it’s not – but a country that’s wealthy in other ways: whose people have good jobs, with decent public services, where trust in democracy is high and a sense of community has been restored.
Small countries are, after all, pretty good at this wellbeing business, consistently topping the UN’s Human Development Index.
Aren’t you a little inspired, or at the very least intrigued?
Our nation’s destiny – our destination – is increasingly clear. UK 2.0 – not Empire 2.0 – is where we are headed as soon there will only be two countries left in this crumbling union. We don’t want to be the sad one at the end of the party that doesn’t know when to leave.

We need a plan that’s clear about the direction of travel, but – honesty alert number two – maybe recognises that we cannot do it all in one go. Wales needs an ante-room to independence. It’s not the Assembly, but it’s something like the Irish Free State 100 years ago, the Dominion status floated recently by Elystan Morgan within Labour and the “free association” suggested a decade ago within Plaid by Rhodri Glyn Thomas.

A Free Wales now, independence next could be an idea that gathered momentum. Whatever the speed of our progress, the alternative is not the status quo.
It is to be an impoverished and patronised peninsula in Greater England’s wake. For Wales, see Scotland or Cornwall? It’s we now too must choose.

His excellent essay is full of holes. Reduced defence spending?..if an independent Wales wished to remain in NATO it would be required to spend 2% of its GDP on defence.
Pensions are basically something we have on credit, we wouldn't be able to reduce contributions because we have some credits left in the Westminster pot or future generations would have no pensions at all.
I'm struggling for time ATM but it really is a load of shite and if your not discerning enough to see through the flaws in it I'm pissin in the wind.

All the Nationalists post is meaningless empty rhetoric about evil Saxons and Tory bankers, not one of you has set out how an independent Wales would function, no economic argument, no details of what type of industry Wales would have, in fact nothing of substance at all. Here's the thing bankers are greedy bastards irrespective of their nationality, a Welsh CEO will not be anymore generous to his workers than an English one, a Welsh politician will not be anymore honest than an English one. Do you really think everything would change for the ordinary man if Wales was "free".

I think Adam Price covers lots of your point in this excellent essay.

Welsh independence has long been something of a minority sport.
Indeed, to have spent most of my adult life – and perhaps even more surprisingly – a good chunk of my childhood – thinking about, dreaming about, writing about the independence of my country – is to mark me out as a little bit odd, let’s be frank.
However, I’ve often pondered the fact that in most other countries it would be the other way round: not believing in the independence of your country would be a strange position to take.
I guess that’s why the number of independent countries continues to rise at an accelerating pace: of the almost 200 sovereign states in the world today over half achieved their independence since World War II.
Being a stateless nation isn’t that much fun to be honest, and that’s why a good proportion of the 60 or so nations left in the ‘still-colonised club’ are queuing up to “yexit”. But not so far we Welsh? Why does the rest of the world view independence so differently from us? And could this change?
Well, to answer the last question I’d start by saying this. There’s a tendency for discussions on Welsh independence to divide along lines that seem to suggest either it will be easy or that it will be impossible.
Neither of these statements are true, of course, and they perhaps reflect that the issue often falls prey to closed-mind thinking and pre-determined conclusions. Honesty alert here. There are some really difficult, thorny issues that we will need to solve, both on our journey towards independence and in the years following. But though they are significant, and must not be underestimated, they should not be exaggerated either.
Let’s take one of them, the current fiscal deficit (according to the most detailed analysis to date) of around £15bn a year. Now that deficit is a serious issue and reflects Wales’ underlying lackluster economic performance in recent years (of which more in a second). But what that figure most decidedly is not is the fiscal balance of a post-independence Wales.
As analysis conducted by the respected Common Weal think tank in Scotland has argued, that deficit is slashed by billions when we take into account a whole series of factors which would apply in the case of an actually independent state.
This includes the fact that UK state pensions accumulated up to the point of independence would remain the responsibility of the successor Westminster state; that contribution to past debt repayments would be reduced by an agreement over the distribution of net assets; that expenditure on things like defence would be much lower etc.

This doesn’t eliminate the deficit but it brings it closer to levels comparable to that which the UK is itself currently funding as a percentage of national income: and no-one is arguing the UK can’t be independent, pre or post-Brexit.
The deficit argument is one example of a particularly Welsh complex: the inverted self-confidence of a nation that is convinced that it cannot be a success. This is so deeply ingrained that beliefs – that we are too small or too poor to be independent – appear to us self-evident facts even when contradicted by the world we see around us.

Of the top 20 richest countries in the world today, 14 of them are small countries. Far from being too poor to be independent, doesn’t the logic point in the opposite direction: it’s our very lack of independence – and the ability to be agile and innovative, using the full range of tools and policy levers that only the independent nation has at its disposal – that has condemned our people to inter-generational poverty.
And on certain indices – trade in goods, for example – it’s Britain that’s in massive deficit not us.
Beyond the raw data of the polls I detect that people are increasingly open to the idea of Welsh independence, perhaps at this stage just as a dream, an alternative reality like the imaginary independent Wales in the novels of Jasper Fforde or Malcolm Pryce.

Welcome to the world of the indy-curious, to quote a phrase of Wales’ most interesting political movement of the moment, Yes Cymru. To see if you belong in their ranks then conduct a quick thought experiment: imagine by some miracle of medical science you’re transported, mind and body intact, to Wales in the year 2050. (God knows, some of us reading this may actually get there.)

And imagine that this Wales is independent. Does your heart miss a beat with a mini throb of pride – bloody hell, we did it! – or a sense of sadness and loss?
And imagine that when you open your eyes you see a Wales that may not be the richest in the world – Singapore perhaps it’s not – but a country that’s wealthy in other ways: whose people have good jobs, with decent public services, where trust in democracy is high and a sense of community has been restored.
Small countries are, after all, pretty good at this wellbeing business, consistently topping the UN’s Human Development Index.
Aren’t you a little inspired, or at the very least intrigued?
Our nation’s destiny – our destination – is increasingly clear. UK 2.0 – not Empire 2.0 – is where we are headed as soon there will only be two countries left in this crumbling union. We don’t want to be the sad one at the end of the party that doesn’t know when to leave.

We need a plan that’s clear about the direction of travel, but – honesty alert number two – maybe recognises that we cannot do it all in one go. Wales needs an ante-room to independence. It’s not the Assembly, but it’s something like the Irish Free State 100 years ago, the Dominion status floated recently by Elystan Morgan within Labour and the “free association” suggested a decade ago within Plaid by Rhodri Glyn Thomas.

A Free Wales now, independence next could be an idea that gathered momentum. Whatever the speed of our progress, the alternative is not the status quo.
It is to be an impoverished and patronised peninsula in Greater England’s wake. For Wales, see Scotland or Cornwall? It’s we now too must choose.

If thus is what your basis of your argument we are all doomed if looneys like you are ever in charge

Tools and Policy levers..indy curious, UK 2.0.....if I put crap like that in a Business Plan, I'd be booted up the arse, and deservedly so.

Guess what Gog, Adam Price has never had to turn a penny in his life. All he has ever done is talk in institutions, whilst others do the work.

Why doesnt he start a business - y'know, start the revolution. Because he couldnt.

Trump talks as much shite as Adam Price, difference is Trump has done the mileage.

And still no one has really explained why we need independence. We are physically attached to england who are in turn physically attached to scotland. We are not disconnected by thousands of miles of ocean. We can drive to the far ends of the country within 14 hours. You can barely cross a state in some countries over that time frame. We DO have a national identity. But we are lucky to have TWO national identities. We do very well out of the union. Sure its not perfect but ultimately politicians have to toe a line where in any given situation a sizeable proportion of the public will be pretty pissed off by their choices.

All this evil tory bashing wears thin.
1) Wales has a labour led assembly. We keep voting for them.
2) Labour were in charge of Westminster for a fair few years prior to the conservatives. They TOO had a tendency to encourage bankers. Indeed some would argue they did more and there is evidence that the conservatives have done more to reign in tax avoidance and other such issues that labour under blair ever did. There is a reason for that. The big bankers generate large sums of money. Large sums of money can be taxed. Tax can be spent. We can argue about the ethics and moralities. We can argue about how they avoid paying tax. But thats the long and short of what they did and why they did it. They git bitten but that isnt the conservatives fault solely. Governments change and they tend to flip flop one way or the other.
Also - I voted conservative at the last election. I am not alone. Even in Wales many people did so. There are conservative MPs and AM's. Bleating about wanting independence because the conservatives are in power smacks of ignoring election results to me.

We ARE self determining. We DO have a voice. We DO have an excellent standard of living. The language which is of principal importance to a lot of people IS given equal status. We have rights only ever dreamed of a generation ago and ones very much NOT extended to other countries.

If you do not like the conservatives dont vote for them. If they still get in its because more people disagree with you!!! Trying to take your ball home is not the answer. Making a compelling opposing argument is.
Insulting people for a lack of pride in their country for not wanting the same thing as you or knocking the English is NOT the answer.

All the Nationalists post is meaningless empty rhetoric about evil Saxons and Tory bankers, not one of you has set out how an independent Wales would function, no economic argument, no details of what type of industry Wales would have, in fact nothing of substance at all. Here's the thing bankers are greedy bastards irrespective of their nationality, a Welsh CEO will not be anymore generous to his workers than an English one, a Welsh politician will not be anymore honest than an English one. Do you really think everything would change for the ordinary man if Wales was "free".

I think Adam Price covers lots of your point in this excellent essay.

Welsh independence has long been something of a minority sport.
Indeed, to have spent most of my adult life – and perhaps even more surprisingly – a good chunk of my childhood – thinking about, dreaming about, writing about the independence of my country – is to mark me out as a little bit odd, let’s be frank.
However, I’ve often pondered the fact that in most other countries it would be the other way round: not believing in the independence of your country would be a strange position to take.
I guess that’s why the number of independent countries continues to rise at an accelerating pace: of the almost 200 sovereign states in the world today over half achieved their independence since World War II.
Being a stateless nation isn’t that much fun to be honest, and that’s why a good proportion of the 60 or so nations left in the ‘still-colonised club’ are queuing up to “yexit”. But not so far we Welsh? Why does the rest of the world view independence so differently from us? And could this change?
Well, to answer the last question I’d start by saying this. There’s a tendency for discussions on Welsh independence to divide along lines that seem to suggest either it will be easy or that it will be impossible.
Neither of these statements are true, of course, and they perhaps reflect that the issue often falls prey to closed-mind thinking and pre-determined conclusions. Honesty alert here. There are some really difficult, thorny issues that we will need to solve, both on our journey towards independence and in the years following. But though they are significant, and must not be underestimated, they should not be exaggerated either.
Let’s take one of them, the current fiscal deficit (according to the most detailed analysis to date) of around £15bn a year. Now that deficit is a serious issue and reflects Wales’ underlying lackluster economic performance in recent years (of which more in a second). But what that figure most decidedly is not is the fiscal balance of a post-independence Wales.
As analysis conducted by the respected Common Weal think tank in Scotland has argued, that deficit is slashed by billions when we take into account a whole series of factors which would apply in the case of an actually independent state.
This includes the fact that UK state pensions accumulated up to the point of independence would remain the responsibility of the successor Westminster state; that contribution to past debt repayments would be reduced by an agreement over the distribution of net assets; that expenditure on things like defence would be much lower etc.

This doesn’t eliminate the deficit but it brings it closer to levels comparable to that which the UK is itself currently funding as a percentage of national income: and no-one is arguing the UK can’t be independent, pre or post-Brexit.
The deficit argument is one example of a particularly Welsh complex: the inverted self-confidence of a nation that is convinced that it cannot be a success. This is so deeply ingrained that beliefs – that we are too small or too poor to be independent – appear to us self-evident facts even when contradicted by the world we see around us.

Of the top 20 richest countries in the world today, 14 of them are small countries. Far from being too poor to be independent, doesn’t the logic point in the opposite direction: it’s our very lack of independence – and the ability to be agile and innovative, using the full range of tools and policy levers that only the independent nation has at its disposal – that has condemned our people to inter-generational poverty.
And on certain indices – trade in goods, for example – it’s Britain that’s in massive deficit not us.
Beyond the raw data of the polls I detect that people are increasingly open to the idea of Welsh independence, perhaps at this stage just as a dream, an alternative reality like the imaginary independent Wales in the novels of Jasper Fforde or Malcolm Pryce.

Welcome to the world of the indy-curious, to quote a phrase of Wales’ most interesting political movement of the moment, Yes Cymru. To see if you belong in their ranks then conduct a quick thought experiment: imagine by some miracle of medical science you’re transported, mind and body intact, to Wales in the year 2050. (God knows, some of us reading this may actually get there.)

And imagine that this Wales is independent. Does your heart miss a beat with a mini throb of pride – bloody hell, we did it! – or a sense of sadness and loss?
And imagine that when you open your eyes you see a Wales that may not be the richest in the world – Singapore perhaps it’s not – but a country that’s wealthy in other ways: whose people have good jobs, with decent public services, where trust in democracy is high and a sense of community has been restored.
Small countries are, after all, pretty good at this wellbeing business, consistently topping the UN’s Human Development Index.
Aren’t you a little inspired, or at the very least intrigued?
Our nation’s destiny – our destination – is increasingly clear. UK 2.0 – not Empire 2.0 – is where we are headed as soon there will only be two countries left in this crumbling union. We don’t want to be the sad one at the end of the party that doesn’t know when to leave.

We need a plan that’s clear about the direction of travel, but – honesty alert number two – maybe recognises that we cannot do it all in one go. Wales needs an ante-room to independence. It’s not the Assembly, but it’s something like the Irish Free State 100 years ago, the Dominion status floated recently by Elystan Morgan within Labour and the “free association” suggested a decade ago within Plaid by Rhodri Glyn Thomas.

A Free Wales now, independence next could be an idea that gathered momentum. Whatever the speed of our progress, the alternative is not the status quo.
It is to be an impoverished and patronised peninsula in Greater England’s wake. For Wales, see Scotland or Cornwall? It’s we now too must choose.

I don't know who needs the most help,the pipe dreaming idiot that wrote this or you for believing it.

And still no one has really explained why we need independence. We are physically attached to england who are in turn physically attached to scotland. We are not disconnected by thousands of miles of ocean. We can drive to the far ends of the country within 14 hours. You can barely cross a state in some countries over that time frame. We DO have a national identity. But we are lucky to have TWO national identities. We do very well out of the union. Sure its not perfect but ultimately politicians have to toe a line where in any given situation a sizeable proportion of the public will be pretty pissed off by their choices.

All this evil tory bashing wears thin.
1) Wales has a labour led assembly. We keep voting for them.
2) Labour were in charge of Westminster for a fair few years prior to the conservatives. They TOO had a tendency to encourage bankers. Indeed some would argue they did more and there is evidence that the conservatives have done more to reign in tax avoidance and other such issues that labour under blair ever did. There is a reason for that. The big bankers generate large sums of money. Large sums of money can be taxed. Tax can be spent. We can argue about the ethics and moralities. We can argue about how they avoid paying tax. But thats the long and short of what they did and why they did it. They git bitten but that isnt the conservatives fault solely. Governments change and they tend to flip flop one way or the other.
Also - I voted conservative at the last election. I am not alone. Even in Wales many people did so. There are conservative MPs and AM's. Bleating about wanting independence because the conservatives are in power smacks of ignoring election results to me.

We ARE self determining. We DO have a voice. We DO have an excellent standard of living. The language which is of principal importance to a lot of people IS given equal status. We have rights only ever dreamed of a generation ago and ones very much NOT extended to other countries.

If you do not like the conservatives dont vote for them. If they still get in its because more people disagree with you!!! Trying to take your ball home is not the answer. Making a compelling opposing argument is.
Insulting people for a lack of pride in their country for not wanting the same thing as you or knocking the English is NOT the answer.

Good sensible post. Correct about Labour and the bankers as well. People forget that Gordon Brown took away control of our banks from the Bank of England and created the FSA. We all know what happened after that. Had to laugh at an earlier post mentioning Wales and their exporting of water. Well, we can all be safe in the knowledge that if we are ever get our independence we will have no finance issues, we can rely on our water exports to sustain us, although I have a feeling that building a few reservoirs are not beyond the capabilities of the English.