Can't quite understand ?

How so many people in pub in Roath tonight were happily hoping Swansea Town beat Everton and would stay up, always thought they were our rivals. Lots of comments like great for Wales, wonder if Celtic and Rangers hope each win each week because it's good for Scotland Oh well

How so many people in pub in Roath tonight were happily hoping Swansea Town beat Everton and would stay up, always thought they were our rivals. Lots of comments like great for Wales, wonder if Celtic and Rangers hope each win each week because it's good for Scotland Oh well

Immigrants from swansea

How so many people in pub in Roath tonight were happily hoping Swansea Town beat Everton and would stay up, always thought they were our rivals. Lots of comments like great for Wales, wonder if Celtic and Rangers hope each win each week because it's good for Scotland Oh well

Immigrants from swansea

How so many people in pub in Roath tonight were happily hoping Swansea Town beat Everton and would stay up, always thought they were our rivals. Lots of comments like great for Wales, wonder if Celtic and Rangers hope each win each week because it's good for Scotland Oh well

I totally agree, we get a lot of that up here in Caerphilly and it gets right up my nose.

How so many people in pub in Roath tonight were happily hoping Swansea Town beat Everton and would stay up, always thought they were our rivals. Lots of comments like great for Wales, wonder if Celtic and Rangers hope each win each week because it's good for Scotland Oh well

I totally agree, we get a lot of that up here in Caerphilly and it gets right up my nose.

It amazes me

Not that shocking really. Not everybody in Cardiff is a Cardiff fan, that is the reason why only 14 or 15 thousand home fans turn up each game. People in Wales are growing up used to the coverage of Swansea and the draw of the Premier League.

That may sound like a jack rubbing it in, but I am just saying it how it is. The Premier League is massive and being the Welsh representitives there for the majority of the last decade we would have picked up fans all over Wales, including from Cardiff. I am sure if the roles were reversed we would have people in Swansea areas cheering you on too.

Not that shocking really. Not everybody in Cardiff is a Cardiff fan, that is the reason why only 14 or 15 thousand home fans turn up each game. People in Wales are growing up used to the coverage of Swansea and the draw of the Premier League.

That may sound like a jack rubbing it in, but I am just saying it how it is. The Premier League is massive and being the Welsh representitives there for the majority of the last decade we would have picked up fans all over Wales, including from Cardiff. I am sure if the roles were reversed we would have people in Swansea areas cheering you on too.

They said "great for Wales" not that they were Swansea fans. I've yet to meet anyone from Cardiff who is a Swansea supporter.

"only 14 or 15 thousand turn up " you mugs have been in the premier league for 7 years and stayed on 20000 .so you've picked up no extra supporters. You haven't expanded your stadium cos you don't need to.

Not that shocking really. Not everybody in Cardiff is a Cardiff fan, that is the reason why only 14 or 15 thousand home fans turn up each game. People in Wales are growing up used to the coverage of Swansea and the draw of the Premier League.

That may sound like a jack rubbing it in, but I am just saying it how it is. The Premier League is massive and being the Welsh representitives there for the majority of the last decade we would have picked up fans all over Wales, including from Cardiff. I am sure if the roles were reversed we would have people in Swansea areas cheering you on too.

They said "great for Wales" not that they were Swansea fans. I've yet to meet anyone from Cardiff who is a Swansea supporter.

Well I think you are kidding yourself on that front if you don't think there are now Swansea fans in Cardiff.

"only 14 or 15 thousand turn up " you mugs have been in the premier league for 7 years and stayed on 20000 .so you've picked up no extra supporters. You haven't expanded your stadium cos you don't need to.

Yes it just so happens that we have a stadium to fit every single Swansea fan in with no seats to spare. Uncanny really.

On a serious note, we could do with an expansion of a further 5000-6000 in my opinion and we would continue to sell out our ST's (as long as we stayed at this level). Any more and we would then start seeing empty seats for the smaller games. But when Man Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool, Man City, Arsenal roll into town we could sell 30,000+.

Not that shocking really. Not everybody in Cardiff is a Cardiff fan, that is the reason why only 14 or 15 thousand home fans turn up each game. People in Wales are growing up used to the coverage of Swansea and the draw of the Premier League.

That may sound like a jack rubbing it in, but I am just saying it how it is. The Premier League is massive and being the Welsh representitives there for the majority of the last decade we would have picked up fans all over Wales, including from Cardiff. I am sure if the roles were reversed we would have people in Swansea areas cheering you on too.

They said "great for Wales" not that they were Swansea fans. I've yet to meet anyone from Cardiff who is a Swansea supporter.

Well I think you are kidding yourself on that front if you don't think there are now Swansea fans in Cardiff.

Here we go.....come on then explain why am I kidding myself? I would think you wouldn't get someone from Swansea supporting Cardiff regardless of Cardiff having success. When I say someone from Cardiff I mean that literally somebody born and bred not someone who's moved to Cardiff or south Wales.

Here we go.....come on then explain why am I kidding myself? I would think you wouldn't get someone from Swansea supporting Cardiff regardless of Cardiff having success. When I say someone from Cardiff I mean that literally somebody born and bred not someone who's moved to Cardiff or south Wales.

There is no ''here we go'' about it. Take off your Cardiff specs and genuinely think about this sensibly.

Of course you would have people from Swansea supporting Cardiff if you had sustained top level success. It goes without saying. There are people born in Cardiff and Swansea who don't identify with the rivalry of the cities. So being born there is not a barrier.

Just think of all the 8-10 year olds in Cardiff that have never been to a Cardiff game. It is at that age when kids tend to ''pick a side''. Who does a young welsh kid pick to go and see? The side down the road that plays in the Premier League and is on TV often and match of the day every week playing against the likes of Man United and Arsenal? or Cardiff in the Championship against sides many have never even heard of (Burton Albion etc)? (some who have parents as Cardiff fans would obviously follow the family). But those getting into football would I imagine be asking their parents to take them to see the Premier League match.

The longer Swansea stay at the top table, every year that goes by a kid from the Cardiff area decides to follow the the Welsh side in the Premier League. We have been there 6-7 years now. Those then 10 year olds are now 16-17 year olds.

If you get up to the Premier League and we get relegated then you will probably see a switch in that. But to think nobody is going to be supporting Swansea simply because they are born in Cardiff is naive I think.

Here we go.....come on then explain why am I kidding myself? I would think you wouldn't get someone from Swansea supporting Cardiff regardless of Cardiff having success. When I say someone from Cardiff I mean that literally somebody born and bred not someone who's moved to Cardiff or south Wales.

There is no ''here we go'' about it. Take off your Cardiff specs and genuinely think about this sensibly.

Of course you would have people from Swansea supporting Cardiff if you had sustained top level success. It goes without saying. There are people born in Cardiff and Swansea who don't identify with the rivalry of the cities. So being born there is not a barrier.

Just think of all the 8-10 year olds in Cardiff that have never been to a Cardiff game. It is at that age when kids tend to ''pick a side''. Who does a young welsh kid pick to go and see? The side down the road that plays in the Premier League and is on TV often and match of the day every week playing against the likes of Man United and Arsenal? or Cardiff in the Championship against sides many have never even heard of (Burton Albion etc)? (some who have parents as Cardiff fans would obviously follow the family). But those getting into football would I imagine be asking their parents to take them to see the Premier League match.

The longer Swansea stay at the top table, every year that goes by a kid from the Cardiff area decides to follow the the Welsh side in the Premier League. We have been there 6-7 years now. Those then 10 year olds are now 16-17 year olds.

If you get up to the Premier League and we get relegated then you will probably see a switch in that. But to think nobody is going to be supporting Swansea simply because they are born in Cardiff is naive I think.

And 8-10 year olds aren't influenced by older peers, brothers, sisters, parents, grandparents?

Nothing at all naive to think it.I'm Cardiff born and bred I know people from all fours corners of the city, I work in the city, I go out in the city, my children (incidentally aged 10 & 12) go to school in the city, my son plays club football in the city and I am yet to meet a Swansea fan born and bred in Cardiff.

But if I'm right you'll continue to argue the point even though you don't live in Wales and havent done for a number of years?

Here we go.....come on then explain why am I kidding myself? I would think you wouldn't get someone from Swansea supporting Cardiff regardless of Cardiff having success. When I say someone from Cardiff I mean that literally somebody born and bred not someone who's moved to Cardiff or south Wales.

There is no ''here we go'' about it. Take off your Cardiff specs and genuinely think about this sensibly.

Of course you would have people from Swansea supporting Cardiff if you had sustained top level success. It goes without saying. There are people born in Cardiff and Swansea who don't identify with the rivalry of the cities. So being born there is not a barrier.

Just think of all the 8-10 year olds in Cardiff that have never been to a Cardiff game. It is at that age when kids tend to ''pick a side''. Who does a young welsh kid pick to go and see? The side down the road that plays in the Premier League and is on TV often and match of the day every week playing against the likes of Man United and Arsenal? or Cardiff in the Championship against sides many have never even heard of (Burton Albion etc)? (some who have parents as Cardiff fans would obviously follow the family). But those getting into football would I imagine be asking their parents to take them to see the Premier League match.

The longer Swansea stay at the top table, every year that goes by a kid from the Cardiff area decides to follow the the Welsh side in the Premier League. We have been there 6-7 years now. Those then 10 year olds are now 16-17 year olds.

If you get up to the Premier League and we get relegated then you will probably see a switch in that. But to think nobody is going to be supporting Swansea simply because they are born in Cardiff is naive I think.

And 8-10 year olds aren't influenced by older peers, brothers, sisters, parents, grandparents?

Nothing at all naive to think it.I'm Cardiff born and bred I know people from all fours corners of the city, I work in the city, I go out in the city, my children (incidentally aged 10 & 12) go to school in the city, my son plays club football in the city and I am yet to meet a Swansea fan born and bred in Cardiff.

But if I'm right you'll continue to argue the point even though you don't live in Wales and havent done for a number of years?

I think the majority of youngsters born and bred in Cardiff are not fans of either club. Neither club are particularly big or fashionable clubs, and whenever I hear groups of youngsters talking football, they are invariably on about clubs like Man U, Chelsea, Arsenal etc. Nothing new really, when I was in school I was one of a very small minority who had Cardiff as their favourite club. Nearly everyone back then backed one of a small handful of the 1st division big clubs, and nothing much has changed. Swansea and Cardiff are never going to be the clubs of choice for the kids of today, whichever club is in the top league. As far as fans are concerned, both clubs are relatively smallish clubs that will never have the sort of following that the established big clubs get, and it has been like this since I started supporting us fifty years back.

Here we go.....come on then explain why am I kidding myself? I would think you wouldn't get someone from Swansea supporting Cardiff regardless of Cardiff having success. When I say someone from Cardiff I mean that literally somebody born and bred not someone who's moved to Cardiff or south Wales.

There is no ''here we go'' about it. Take off your Cardiff specs and genuinely think about this sensibly.

Of course you would have people from Swansea supporting Cardiff if you had sustained top level success. It goes without saying. There are people born in Cardiff and Swansea who don't identify with the rivalry of the cities. So being born there is not a barrier.

Just think of all the 8-10 year olds in Cardiff that have never been to a Cardiff game. It is at that age when kids tend to ''pick a side''. Who does a young welsh kid pick to go and see? The side down the road that plays in the Premier League and is on TV often and match of the day every week playing against the likes of Man United and Arsenal? or Cardiff in the Championship against sides many have never even heard of (Burton Albion etc)? (some who have parents as Cardiff fans would obviously follow the family). But those getting into football would I imagine be asking their parents to take them to see the Premier League match.

The longer Swansea stay at the top table, every year that goes by a kid from the Cardiff area decides to follow the the Welsh side in the Premier League. We have been there 6-7 years now. Those then 10 year olds are now 16-17 year olds.

If you get up to the Premier League and we get relegated then you will probably see a switch in that. But to think nobody is going to be supporting Swansea simply because they are born in Cardiff is naive I think.

And 8-10 year olds aren't influenced by older peers, brothers, sisters, parents, grandparents?

Nothing at all naive to think it.I'm Cardiff born and bred I know people from all fours corners of the city, I work in the city, I go out in the city, my children (incidentally aged 10 & 12) go to school in the city, my son plays club football in the city and I am yet to meet a Swansea fan born and bred in Cardiff.

But if I'm right you'll continue to argue the point even though you don't live in Wales and havent done for a number of years?

I think the majority of youngsters born and bred in Cardiff are not fans of either club. Neither club are particularly big or fashionable clubs, and whenever I hear groups of youngsters talking football, they are invariably on about clubs like Man U, Chelsea, Arsenal etc. Nothing new really, when I was in school I was one of a very small minority who had Cardiff as their favourite club. Nearly everyone back then backed one of a small handful of the 1st division big clubs, and nothing much has changed. Swansea and Cardiff are never going to be the clubs of choice for the kids of today, whichever club is in the top league. As far as fans are concerned, both clubs are relatively smallish clubs that will never have the sort of following that the established big clubs get, and it has been like this since I started supporting us fifty years back.

Got to disagree with your opening sentence sorry. When I was a kid yes neither side were fashionable clubs but that's not the case. I coach at under 12 level in a squad of 18, 11 are Cardiff supporters, now if I'd typed this in the 80's we'd be looking at what 1 or 2?

And 8-10 year olds aren't influenced by older peers, brothers, sisters, parents, grandparents?

Nothing at all naive to think it.I'm Cardiff born and bred I know people from all fours corners of the city, I work in the city, I go out in the city, my children (incidentally aged 10 & 12) go to school in the city, my son plays club football in the city and I am yet to meet a Swansea fan born and bred in Cardiff.

But if I'm right you'll continue to argue the point even though you don't live in Wales and havent done for a number of years?

Some are. I wasn't, neither parent likes football. I would imagine there are tens of thousands of families in Cardiff where neither parent likes football let alone a specific side. The only strong influence I would say is TV like most things. Swansea is the nearest accessible Premier League club in which they can identify with, being Welsh. Its fairly obvious.

I am not saying you are naive to think a lot of Cardiff people support Cardiff, I think you are being naive if you think every person in Cardiff supports Cardiff or anyone else other than Swansea. Because this is quite obviously not going to be even close to reality.

My son is 14, I he goes to school in Cardiff, in his class the approx break down is 2 or 3 cardiff fans and 2 or 3 Swansea fans amazingly, the rest follow Liverpool or are not bothered who anyone supports. My son also plays for Merthyr Town U16s and the split at training with parents wearing some kind of sporting item is Cardiff, Swansea and Liverpool all equal

My son is 14, I he goes to school in Cardiff, in his class the approx break down is 2 or 3 cardiff fans and 2 or 3 Swansea fans amazingly, the rest follow Liverpool or are not bothered who anyone supports. My son also plays for Merthyr Town U16s and the split at training with parents wearing some kind of sporting item is Cardiff, Swansea and Liverpool all equal

Sounds about right I'd say.

Not that shocking really. Not everybody in Cardiff is a Cardiff fan, that is the reason why only 14 or 15 thousand home fans turn up each game. People in Wales are growing up used to the coverage of Swansea and the draw of the Premier League.

That may sound like a jack rubbing it in, but I am just saying it how it is. The Premier League is massive and being the Welsh representitives there for the majority of the last decade we would have picked up fans all over Wales, including from Cardiff. I am sure if the roles were reversed we would have people in Swansea areas cheering you on too.

They said "great for Wales" not that they were Swansea fans. I've yet to meet anyone from Cardiff who is a Swansea supporter.

Well I think you are kidding yourself on that front if you don't think there are now Swansea fans in Cardiff.

Here we go.....come on then explain why am I kidding myself? I would think you wouldn't get someone from Swansea supporting Cardiff regardless of Cardiff having success. When I say someone from Cardiff I mean that literally somebody born and bred not someone who's moved to Cardiff or south Wales.

Quote (WelshPatriot): "I've yet to meet anyone from Cardiff who is a Swansea supporter."

There are a few 'locals' who abandoned Cardiff City to go watch Swansea in the Premier League. Luckily, most are not dull enough to wear the shirt about the City!

Also, many from areas of Cardiff's 'traditional' support (inc. Bridgend, Aberdare, Merthyr, Neath, etc.) stopped watching Cardiff to go to Swansea and a few even have season tickets for both clubs!

Can't consider them to be real fans of ANY club in my eyes and they will change again when the status quo returns, although I do accept there is a problem with the very young being brought up feeling

They'll tell you they have their reasons but none other than 'glory hunting' or watching the 'big' clubs they claim to support once a season will be anywhere near the truth

Couldn't/wouldn't do it myself but sadly, it's modern life and people feel a need to be attached to something/anything successful; and that is just not in football

Not that shocking really. Not everybody in Cardiff is a Cardiff fan, that is the reason why only 14 or 15 thousand home fans turn up each game. People in Wales are growing up used to the coverage of Swansea and the draw of the Premier League.

That may sound like a jack rubbing it in, but I am just saying it how it is. The Premier League is massive and being the Welsh representitives there for the majority of the last decade we would have picked up fans all over Wales, including from Cardiff. I am sure if the roles were reversed we would have people in Swansea areas cheering you on too.

They said "great for Wales" not that they were Swansea fans. I've yet to meet anyone from Cardiff who is a Swansea supporter.

Well I think you are kidding yourself on that front if you don't think there are now Swansea fans in Cardiff.

Here we go.....come on then explain why am I kidding myself? I would think you wouldn't get someone from Swansea supporting Cardiff regardless of Cardiff having success. When I say someone from Cardiff I mean that literally somebody born and bred not someone who's moved to Cardiff or south Wales.

Quote (WelshPatriot): "I've yet to meet anyone from Cardiff who is a Swansea supporter."

There are a few 'locals' who abandoned Cardiff City to go watch Swansea in the Premier League. Luckily, most are not dull enough to wear the shirt about the City!

Also, many from areas of Cardiff's 'traditional' support (inc. Bridgend, Aberdare, Merthyr, Neath, etc.) stopped watching Cardiff to go to Swansea and a few even have season tickets for both clubs!

Can't consider them to be real fans of ANY club in my eyes and they will change again when the status quo returns, although I do accept there is a problem with the very young being brought up feeling

They'll tell you they have their reasons but none other than 'glory hunting' or watching the 'big' clubs they claim to support once a season will be anywhere near the truth

Couldn't/wouldn't do it myself but sadly, it's modern life and people feel a need to be attached to something/anything successful; and that is just not in football

Im sure there was a thread on here not so long ago about seeing kids in and around the City with Swansea gear on. As you say, it is the lure of the PL and they wouldnt be fans if we were not there. We just have to hope that we are there ling enough to turn the fairweather into the die hard. We have both experienced that with 4000 crowds not so long ago.

My son is 14, I he goes to school in Cardiff, in his class the approx break down is 2 or 3 cardiff fans and 2 or 3 Swansea fans amazingly, the rest follow Liverpool or are not bothered who anyone supports. My son also plays for Merthyr Town U16s and the split at training with parents wearing some kind of sporting item is Cardiff, Swansea and Liverpool all equal

Merthyr isn't in Cardiff. What high school does he attended in Cardiff that has the same Amount of Swansea city fans as Cardiff fans aged 14??

Last edited by WelshPatriot on Sun May 07, 2017 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Not that shocking really. Not everybody in Cardiff is a Cardiff fan, that is the reason why only 14 or 15 thousand home fans turn up each game. People in Wales are growing up used to the coverage of Swansea and the draw of the Premier League.

That may sound like a jack rubbing it in, but I am just saying it how it is. The Premier League is massive and being the Welsh representitives there for the majority of the last decade we would have picked up fans all over Wales, including from Cardiff. I am sure if the roles were reversed we would have people in Swansea areas cheering you on too.

They said "great for Wales" not that they were Swansea fans. I've yet to meet anyone from Cardiff who is a Swansea supporter.

Well I think you are kidding yourself on that front if you don't think there are now Swansea fans in Cardiff.

Here we go.....come on then explain why am I kidding myself? I would think you wouldn't get someone from Swansea supporting Cardiff regardless of Cardiff having success. When I say someone from Cardiff I mean that literally somebody born and bred not someone who's moved to Cardiff or south Wales.

Quote (WelshPatriot): "I've yet to meet anyone from Cardiff who is a Swansea supporter."

There are a few 'locals' who abandoned Cardiff City to go watch Swansea in the Premier League. Luckily, most are not dull enough to wear the shirt about the City!

Also, many from areas of Cardiff's 'traditional' support (inc. Bridgend, Aberdare, Merthyr, Neath, etc.) stopped watching Cardiff to go to Swansea and a few even have season tickets for both clubs!

Can't consider them to be real fans of ANY club in my eyes and they will change again when the status quo returns, although I do accept there is a problem with the very young being brought up feeling

They'll tell you they have their reasons but none other than 'glory hunting' or watching the 'big' clubs they claim to support once a season will be anywhere near the truth

Couldn't/wouldn't do it myself but sadly, it's modern life and people feel a need to be attached to something/anything successful; and that is just not in football

Im sure there was a thread on here not so long ago about seeing kids in and around the City with Swansea gear on. As you say, it is the lure of the PL and they wouldnt be fans if we were not there. We just have to hope that we are there ling enough to turn the fairweather into the die hard. We have both experienced that with 4000 crowds not so long ago.

I put a post about shoppers in Cardiff wearing Swansea tracksuit tops difference again was their accents they weren't Cardiff born and bred. Merely in the city shopping. I posted about it because of the changes in attitude because years back you'd never had dared too.

I want them to lose every game. I hate them with a passion and it does my head in seeing kids around Cardiff wearing their kit. When they go back to where they belong see them changing back to manure kits and all the other glory hunting teams they will follow

I put a post about shoppers in Cardiff wearing Swansea tracksuit tops difference again was their accents they weren't Cardiff born and bred. Merely in the city shopping. I posted about it because of the changes in attitude because years back you'd never had dared too.

Don't think I saw that one, it was to do with kids in the City wearing Swansea gear, and playing football in the park by the stadium if memory serves. But your one sounds interesting, are you saying that whenever you see someone in Swans gear you make a point of getting close enough to listen to their accents?

Fair enough if you want to continue to be adamant that nobody from Cardiff would support a Premier League team 40 mins away then be my guest, but I imagine even the most staunch Cardiff fan and Swansea basher would find it difficult to follow you in on that statement.

Its just common sense.

Cardiff has always been full of people who are indifferent, at best, to CCFC. Egg-chasers, people from other parts of Wales, the 'Wales at everything' crowd, and 'sport' fans. To be honest, though, wanting Swansea to stay up is the same as wanting Newport County to stay up. Personally, can't see the difference. Both lot dislike us.

I put a post about shoppers in Cardiff wearing Swansea tracksuit tops difference again was their accents they weren't Cardiff born and bred. Merely in the city shopping. I posted about it because of the changes in attitude because years back you'd never had dared too.

Don't think I saw that one, it was to do with kids in the City wearing Swansea gear, and playing football in the park by the stadium if memory serves. But your one sounds interesting, are you saying that whenever you see someone in Swans gear you make a point of getting close enough to listen to their accents?

Fair enough if you want to continue to be adamant that nobody from Cardiff would support a Premier League team 40 mins away then be my guest, but I imagine even the most staunch Cardiff fan and Swansea basher would find it difficult to follow you in on that statement.

Its just common sense.

Been a while since you've been shopping? Been a while since you've been in the likes of JD Sport sat trying trainers on your kids as the mother sat next to you is asking for a certain size trainer for her kids? Been a while since another parent made conversation with you about how expensive trainers are these days?

Why try make something simple and quite normal into something weird and odd?

I would suggest you have done exactly that though, with taking what is quite clearly a fairly common sense and innocuous comment and attempting to take the oddest stance ive seen from someone on this forum. To say there is no Swansea fans in Cardiff is just ludicrous. I would imagine the fact you are seeing so many around when you are doing your shopping and trying on your trainers would suggest there are many around, the fact you now feel that is is acceptable to see this go unchallenged unlike before is because people are used to it now, there is more of them. You don't seem to be thinking clearly, or just being stubborn to a ridiculous level as you feel admitting the obvious would mean some kind of one uppmanship on my part. Which it isn't of course.

For a Swansea fan Smackjack spends hell of a lot of time on this forum

For a Swansea fan Smackjack spends hell of a lot of time on this forum

Swansea fans have time to go on football forums too, we arent that special

I would suggest you have done exactly that though, with taking what is quite clearly a fairly common sense and innocuous comment and attempting to take the oddest stance ive seen from someone on this forum. To say there is no Swansea fans in Cardiff is just ludicrous. I would imagine the fact you are seeing so many around when you are doing your shopping and trying on your trainers would suggest there are many around, the fact you now feel that is is acceptable to see this go unchallenged unlike before is because people are used to it now, there is more of them. You don't seem to be thinking clearly, or just being stubborn to a ridiculous level as you feel admitting the obvious would mean some kind of one uppmanship on my part. Which it isn't of course.

Woooooosh my point went totally over your head.