London Fire

Using this tragedy to try and oust May and the Tories shows how low politics has sunk in this country, it completely disgusts me.

When you vote to remove and lower legislation on landlords, allow building materials to be used that are banned in other countries to be used because they're cheap, allow buildings not to be fitted with sprinklers and cut the fire service back to the bare bones, that completely disgusts me.

The cladding is widely used on high rise buildings throughout the world, including Australia where it was first identified that it posed a potential risk. If materials have been used that are non compliant with today's building regulations, we can still blame the Conservatives because one of them should have personally checked everything themselves of course, instead of assuming that anything passed by the relevant authorities is correct. May as well blame the weather on our present government, there are plenty who are quick to point the finger when they have absolutely no idea what has caused this tragedy, and none of us will for quite some time I imagine. As far as sprinklers are concerned, blame the Conservatives for this as well. The fact these blocks have been up for nearly half a century, and numerous governments have come and gone, blame the Conservatives anyway. It is not as if Labour could have been expected to insist on additional safety features when they were in power, only applies to Conservatives.

Using this tragedy to try and oust May and the Tories shows how low politics has sunk in this country, it completely disgusts me.

When you vote to remove and lower legislation on landlords, allow building materials to be used that are banned in other countries to be used because they're cheap, allow buildings not to be fitted with sprinklers and cut the fire service back to the bare bones, that completely disgusts me.

You haven't got a clue, do some proper research rather than getting your "facts" from social media. The building was up for almost half a century, spanning several governments but it's all Mays fault who is responsible for testing the cladding and certifying it, who awarded the building a grant to reduce its carbon footprint and did environmental issues supersede Health and Saftey issues.

Even if no-one in the government does anything about this let's remember Theresa May visited the Grenfell Tower but didn't even meet the residents.. imagine being that arrogant and disgraceful. At least Corbyn showed his sympathy and spoke to the residents some even going to him reaching out, that's a true leader. aye never one to miss a photo our JC, good PR team.

May want's an enquiry in on this, brilliant idea.. how about we skip the 20 years of bulls**t and send the police in now while all the people responsible are alive? Shameful shameful woman.ok, Columbo, who are they ?

Also a salute to the fire service, having to write their own names on their helmets going in risking their lives in order to save others.. really don't think they get the credit and appreciation they deserve.

She made a point of speaking and congratulating the rescue services.

old London Major had a bit of grief though, now what party is he ? and the Labour MP couldn't wait to say that TM didn't speak to residents, if he got anymore excited he would have shot his load.
Terrible accident ??? or what will happen if they find someone had been making things they shouldn't have and its gone wrong? let the investigators do their job before people get blamed I say.

None of us have a clue what has happened here other than the fact that something has gone terribly wrong and many people have tragically lost their lives. Easy to anticipate that certain people would immediately blame the Tory government for this, they blame them for almost everything that goes wrong in this country, even though the experts have not started their investigations yet. I would have thought it best to wait until the facts are known before jumping to conclusions.

Steve exactly as I said, let the experts do their job but it does seem on here that EVERYTHING is the Tories. fault

Using this tragedy to try and oust May and the Tories shows how low politics has sunk in this country, it completely disgusts me.

When you vote to remove and lower legislation on landlords, allow building materials to be used that are banned in other countries to be used because they're cheap, allow buildings not to be fitted with sprinklers and cut the fire service back to the bare bones, that completely disgusts me.

You haven't got a clue, do some proper research rather than getting your "facts" from social media. The building was up for almost half a century, spanning several governments but it's all Mays fault who is responsible for testing the cladding and certifying it, who awarded the building a grant to reduce its carbon footprint and did environmental issues supersede Health and Saftey issues.

Jock, I agree with all your posts on the subject to date. You are right, some people (including the protagonist-in-chief) just have no idea when they are spouting off!

Jock, I don't know why you bother as some will maintain their blinkered view even their 'facts' are wrong,

Jock, I don't know why you bother as some will maintain their blinkered view even their 'facts' are wrong,

I wish the football close season was over, I can't take much more of this mind numbing shite.

Lack of regulation stems from Maggie removing local authorities input into building regulations back in the 80s! Several govmnts have had chance to do something about it but have failed to do anything hence no compulsory sprinklers in high rise flats. If something is not compulsory guarantee it is not done 99% of times regardless of what it is, sprinklers seatbelts ect ect

Using this tragedy to try and oust May and the Tories shows how low politics has sunk in this country, it completely disgusts me.

When you vote to remove and lower legislation on landlords, allow building materials to be used that are banned in other countries to be used because they're cheap, allow buildings not to be fitted with sprinklers and cut the fire service back to the bare bones, that completely disgusts me.

The cladding is widely used on high rise buildings throughout the world, including Australia where it was first identified that it posed a potential risk. If materials have been used that are non compliant with today's building regulations, we can still blame the Conservatives because one of them should have personally checked everything themselves of course, instead of assuming that anything passed by the relevant authorities is correct. May as well blame the weather on our present government, there are plenty who are quick to point the finger when they have absolutely no idea what has caused this tragedy, and none of us will for quite some time I imagine. As far as sprinklers are concerned, blame the Conservatives for this as well. The fact these blocks have been up for nearly half a century, and numerous governments have come and gone, blame the Conservatives anyway. It is not as if Labour could have been expected to insist on additional safety features when they were in power, only applies to Conservatives.

Some of the 'in denial' comments in this thread are astonishing.

Of course the Public Inquiry will have to look at everything and reach conclusions but some factors are surely known.

The fire spread quickly through or behind the new cladding that was put up last year. It followed a pattern seen in other recent fire disasters around the world. The type and composition of the cladding and the insulation panels behind it have been described and discussed in detail over the past day or so - all on the record. The smoke and toxic fumes also travelled very quickly through the building showing that internal fire stopping measures were missing or compromised - and it will be up to the Inquiry to determine when and how that happened. The council and contractors insist that everything they did to the block complied with current building and fire regulations. They could well be right - but that is one of the problems.

After the Lakanal House fire in 2009 when 6 died it took many months for the London Fire Brigade investigation to conclude - but that at least produced new fire safety guidance that was adopted by most landlords in the UK. Local fire services worked closely with landlords on their implementation programmes at the start - but much less so as staffing cuts hit from 2010. The Coroners Inquest was held up by years whilst the Met investigated potential criminal charges (and that finally took 8 years to conclude when Southwark council were fined). The Coroner made his recommendations in 2013 - 4 years ago. Several of them were rejected by government ministers and the key one to amend Building Regs to outlaw the use of cladding/insulation of the type used in Grenfell has been delayed and delayed for over 4 years with no progress at all. That is outrageous.

None of us know if lives would have been lost if the block hadn't been clad last year - but it seems clear that the cladding made the impact of the fire much worse, and that could have been avoided if government had taken the Coroner's findings after Lakanal seriously. They didn't, and they deserve all the criticism they're getting. That isn't cheap political point scoring or making up things to hit the Tories with - it is reflecting the massive frustration of the whole public housing sector after the last tragedy that was supposed to be the last.

The extent of the fire was avoidable. The anger of the residents totally understandable. It "appears" that as with all tragedies there will be a lot of contributory factors....
1/The Council pulled out of using the original tender and re tendered for a much cheaper price (whether getting value for money or cost cutting due to council cutbacks depends on your politics. Did a cheap contractor mean a lower standard of work?
2/Cladding foam used was the cheaper type - not as flame resistant as others available (what price do you put on fire safety). Even though the material may be meet present regulatory requirements.
3/Failure of the de compartmentalisation was only partly due the cladding. In my view it is likely that the refurbishment work will come under extreme scrutiny. It is very likely that when drilling through walls etc the work was not made good with appropriate flame resistant materials. Leaving gaps will allow smoke and fire to spread.
4/ were risk assessments suitable sufficient and accurate and what checks did the Council (or arms length company set up by the Council) undertake?
5/ why had lessons from other similar fires in Australia and France not led to more stringent cladding requirements. And coroner recommendations from another smaller fire not acted upon. This appears to be something that has been under discussion for several years without much progress.

We must wait for the investigation / report. One thing is for sure is that ALL thoughts and sympathies go to the families suffering as a result of the tragic fire.

One thing that as puzzled me is that there as been reports of upto 600 people in the flats! Considering they are either one bed or two bed that sounds like overcrowding to me If so who's responsible for this?

One thing that as puzzled me is that there as been reports of upto 600 people in the flats! Considering they are either one bed or two bed that sounds like overcrowding to me If so who's responsible for this?

A lot of people iv spoke to has mentioned exactly this.

One thing that as puzzled me is that there as been reports of upto 600 people in the flats! Considering they are either one bed or two bed that sounds like overcrowding to me If so who's responsible for this?

A lot of people iv spoke to has mentioned exactly this.

If I read one report correctly there was 6 people in one flat!! Certainly read numerous articles all had more than 4 people in a flat ? Guess this won't get a mention either.

People can't face honesty, just telling it how it is.

Anybody who tries to say this isn't political, after the torys voted down amendments put forward by Labour, to a law which would make houses SAFE FOR HUMAN HABITATION is off their head. These people died due to gentrification, plainly because they were poor. The money that was supposed to be spent on making these properties safe, was instead spent on appeasing the local millionaires with cladding that made the building an inferno.

This public inquiry is also a bloody farce. A public inquiry is almost driven by the government and the victims of this tragic event won't get the opportunity to ask questions. What is being covered up? There should be an inquest into this, not a public inquiry. Those who were negligent should have to pay.

The deregulation of building control services to residential properties came in 2005. Building control inspections halved overnight and have been declining ever since. Its the biggest single act of deregulation for me in recent years. I did a 250k basement less than half a mile from this fire last year. I got 1 visit.

I'm afraid the construction industry in pretty much its entirety will justifiably be in the dock here. From designers clearly failing, to inspectors, to site management lacking control to tradesmen and operatives. I suspect a lot of service holes in this building were left unsealed but hidden.

Its for once not about Government, this lot or the last. And for me its not about the cash. Health and Safety has become a largely academic exercise where well worded but bonkers proposals are OK. Fire alarms that don't wake people sleeping are in my mind not fit for purpose - but clearly somebody proposed it and it's excepted by all and sundry - the fire authorities included. The gas main in the stairwell seems mad too. I know very little about M and E to be honest but it does seem like a disaster waiting to happen. You would have thought a simple control measure turning it off as soon as an alarm sounded could have been installed.

What I really don't get is how inept the fire services appeared at tackling the fire itself. If we cant realistically fight fires in buildings this high we shouldn't be building them. A lot of the newer high rise are almost completely steel in structure and are much less likely to withstand a prolonged fire. But its ok we've put a bit of paint on them that should save it. Don't reckon it would make much difference in myself.

One thing that as puzzled me is that there as been reports of upto 600 people in the flats! Considering they are either one bed or two bed that sounds like overcrowding to me If so who's responsible for this?

A lot of people iv spoke to has mentioned exactly this.

Accordung to press reports flats in the block sell for up to £250,000 and rent privately for over £1200 per month. With such high rents and a housing crisis/ shortage in London it's no wonder more people are going to be squeezed in. In terms of responsibility for managing potential subletting, that is down to the management company who are also behind the refurbishment work. There was a letter from one of there former employees in one of the papers claiming there resources had also been cut over the years. These flats were overcrowded whilst over 2000 (?) homes sit empty in Kensington & Chelsea. Terrible events however we choose to look at them.

The deregulation of building control services to residential properties came in 2005. Building control inspections halved overnight and have been declining ever since. Its the biggest single act of deregulation for me in recent years. I did a 250k basement less than half a mile from this fire last year. I got 1 visit.

I'm afraid the construction industry in pretty much its entirety will justifiably be in the dock here. From designers clearly failing, to inspectors, to site management lacking control to tradesmen and operatives. I suspect a lot of service holes in this building were left unsealed but hidden.

Its for once not about Government, this lot or the last. And for me its not about the cash. Health and Safety has become a largely academic exercise where well worded but bonkers proposals are OK. Fire alarms that don't wake people sleeping are in my mind not fit for purpose - but clearly somebody proposed it and it's excepted by all and sundry - the fire authorities included. The gas main in the stairwell seems mad too. I know very little about M and E to be honest but it does seem like a disaster waiting to happen. You would have thought a simple control measure turning it off as soon as an alarm sounded could have been installed.


I worked in construction myself and understand what you mean about lack of Building Inspector visits but on a job this size surely a clerk of the works would have been permanently on site. Another angle for litigation could be subbies who've priced for fitting services and making good (fire proof etc) then failed to carry out the works correctly. Like yourself Mand E is not my field but putting gas pipes in a stairwell is batshit crazy.



What I really don't get is how inept the fire services appeared at tackling the fire itself. If we cant realistically fight fires in buildings this high we shouldn't be building them. A lot of the newer high rise are almost completely steel in structure and are much less likely to withstand a prolonged fire. But its ok we've put a bit of paint on them that should save it. Don't reckon it would make much difference in myself.

Even if no-one in the government does anything about this let's remember Theresa May visited the Grenfell Tower but didn't even meet the residents.. imagine being that arrogant and disgraceful. At least Corbyn showed his sympathy and spoke to the residents some even going to him reaching out, that's a true leader.

May want's an enquiry in on this, brilliant idea.. how about we skip the 20 years of bulls**t and send the police in now while all the people responsible are alive? Shameful shameful woman.

Also a salute to the fire service, having to write their own names on their helmets going in risking their lives in order to save others.. really don't think they get the credit and appreciation they deserve.

skip the investigation just send the police around to arrest who exactly.

Exactly, 100%.. she basically trying to cover it all up like no-one is responsible.

are you real.

Even if no-one in the government does anything about this let's remember Theresa May visited the Grenfell Tower but didn't even meet the residents.. imagine being that arrogant and disgraceful. At least Corbyn showed his sympathy and spoke to the residents some even going to him reaching out, that's a true leader.

May want's an enquiry in on this, brilliant idea.. how about we skip the 20 years of bulls**t and send the police in now while all the people responsible are alive? Shameful shameful woman.

Also a salute to the fire service, having to write their own names on their helmets going in risking their lives in order to save others.. really don't think they get the credit and appreciation they deserve.

skip the investigation just send the police around to arrest who exactly.

Exactly, 100%.. she basically trying to cover it all up like no-one is responsible.

are you real.

Yes he's a real crackpot

Using this tragedy to try and oust May and the Tories shows how low politics has sunk in this country, it completely disgusts me.

When you vote to remove and lower legislation on landlords, allow building materials to be used that are banned in other countries to be used because they're cheap, allow buildings not to be fitted with sprinklers and cut the fire service back to the bare bones, that completely disgusts me.

The cladding is widely used on high rise buildings throughout the world, including Australia where it was first identified that it posed a potential risk. If materials have been used that are non compliant with today's building regulations, we can still blame the Conservatives because one of them should have personally checked everything themselves of course, instead of assuming that anything passed by the relevant authorities is correct. May as well blame the weather on our present government, there are plenty who are quick to point the finger when they have absolutely no idea what has caused this tragedy, and none of us will for quite some time I imagine. As far as sprinklers are concerned, blame the Conservatives for this as well. The fact these blocks have been up for nearly half a century, and numerous governments have come and gone, blame the Conservatives anyway. It is not as if Labour could have been expected to insist on additional safety features when they were in power, only applies to Conservatives.

Some of the 'in denial' comments in this thread are astonishing.

Of course the Public Inquiry will have to look at everything and reach conclusions but some factors are surely known.

The fire spread quickly through or behind the new cladding that was put up last year. It followed a pattern seen in other recent fire disasters around the world. The type and composition of the cladding and the insulation panels behind it have been described and discussed in detail over the past day or so - all on the record. The smoke and toxic fumes also travelled very quickly through the building showing that internal fire stopping measures were missing or compromised - and it will be up to the Inquiry to determine when and how that happened. The council and contractors insist that everything they did to the block complied with current building and fire regulations. They could well be right - but that is one of the problems.

After the Lakanal House fire in 2009 when 6 died it took many months for the London Fire Brigade investigation to conclude - but that at least produced new fire safety guidance that was adopted by most landlords in the UK. Local fire services worked closely with landlords on their implementation programmes at the start - but much less so as staffing cuts hit from 2010. The Coroners Inquest was held up by years whilst the Met investigated potential criminal charges (and that finally took 8 years to conclude when Southwark council were fined). The Coroner made his recommendations in 2013 - 4 years ago. Several of them were rejected by government ministers and the key one to amend Building Regs to outlaw the use of cladding/insulation of the type used in Grenfell has been delayed and delayed for over 4 years with no progress at all. That is outrageous.

None of us know if lives would have been lost if the block hadn't been clad last year - but it seems clear that the cladding made the impact of the fire much worse, and that could have been avoided if government had taken the Coroner's findings after Lakanal seriously. They didn't, and they deserve all the criticism they're getting. That isn't cheap political point scoring or making up things to hit the Tories with - it is reflecting the massive frustration of the whole public housing sector after the last tragedy that was supposed to be the last.

denial of what....
one bunch of people saying hold on until we know..
another group who having no answers other than made up rubish for 2 months have all become experts in fires and its TMs personal fault.. this cladding {if it turns out to be the cladding } has been used by both tory and labour councils seemingly to reduce costs.

Using this tragedy to try and oust May and the Tories shows how low politics has sunk in this country, it completely disgusts me.

When you vote to remove and lower legislation on landlords, allow building materials to be used that are banned in other countries to be used because they're cheap, allow buildings not to be fitted with sprinklers and cut the fire service back to the bare bones, that completely disgusts me.

The cladding is widely used on high rise buildings throughout the world, including Australia where it was first identified that it posed a potential risk. If materials have been used that are non compliant with today's building regulations, we can still blame the Conservatives because one of them should have personally checked everything themselves of course, instead of assuming that anything passed by the relevant authorities is correct. May as well blame the weather on our present government, there are plenty who are quick to point the finger when they have absolutely no idea what has caused this tragedy, and none of us will for quite some time I imagine. As far as sprinklers are concerned, blame the Conservatives for this as well. The fact these blocks have been up for nearly half a century, and numerous governments have come and gone, blame the Conservatives anyway. It is not as if Labour could have been expected to insist on additional safety features when they were in power, only applies to Conservatives.

Some of the 'in denial' comments in this thread are astonishing.

Of course the Public Inquiry will have to look at everything and reach conclusions but some factors are surely known.

The fire spread quickly through or behind the new cladding that was put up last year. It followed a pattern seen in other recent fire disasters around the world. The type and composition of the cladding and the insulation panels behind it have been described and discussed in detail over the past day or so - all on the record. The smoke and toxic fumes also travelled very quickly through the building showing that internal fire stopping measures were missing or compromised - and it will be up to the Inquiry to determine when and how that happened. The council and contractors insist that everything they did to the block complied with current building and fire regulations. They could well be right - but that is one of the problems.

After the Lakanal House fire in 2009 when 6 died it took many months for the London Fire Brigade investigation to conclude - but that at least produced new fire safety guidance that was adopted by most landlords in the UK. Local fire services worked closely with landlords on their implementation programmes at the start - but much less so as staffing cuts hit from 2010. The Coroners Inquest was held up by years whilst the Met investigated potential criminal charges (and that finally took 8 years to conclude when Southwark council were fined). The Coroner made his recommendations in 2013 - 4 years ago. Several of them were rejected by government ministers and the key one to amend Building Regs to outlaw the use of cladding/insulation of the type used in Grenfell has been delayed and delayed for over 4 years with no progress at all. That is outrageous.

None of us know if lives would have been lost if the block hadn't been clad last year - but it seems clear that the cladding made the impact of the fire much worse, and that could have been avoided if government had taken the Coroner's findings after Lakanal seriously. They didn't, and they deserve all the criticism they're getting. That isn't cheap political point scoring or making up things to hit the Tories with - it is reflecting the massive frustration of the whole public housing sector after the last tragedy that was supposed to be the last.

denial of what....
one bunch of people saying hold on until we know..
another group who having no answers other than made up rubish for 2 months have all become experts in fires and its TMs personal fault.. this cladding {if it turns out to be the cladding } has been used by both tory and labour councils seemingly to reduce costs.

If the Building Regs had been changed in 2013 as recommended by the Lakanal House Coroner then this type of cladding would not have been put on Grenfell tower block last year. The council and TMO wouldn't have been allowed to choose it. The government rejected or slow timed some of the most important recommendations.

Any Public Inquiry or Inquest will throw up a lot of detail and make a lot of new recommendations but you have to be in total denial to think the cladding (or the insulation/void/framework behind the panels) did not contribute massively to the rapid spread of this fire and its jumping between floors. There may be other factors but that is a big one and the government is responsible for a failure to act.

I don't know how many people who comment in this thread are experts - but I did spend 4 years after 2009 leading the Sheffield council housing response to the Lakanal fire and working closely with Fire & Rescue, other landlords, government civil servants and tenants - and I know that government inaction (which seems to have come from ministers) has hamstrung a lot of the work that could have been done to make blocks safer. From what I have seen and heard and read the reason is that the costs that would come with higher fire safety standards didn't fit with the austerity agenda.

I don't think it's Theresa May's personal fault (though she and Eric Pickles ran the Home Office and CLG after Lakanal House). I think there are some ministers at personal fault for blocking national fire safety standard improvements, but more than that it is a collective fault of the government. The council, TMO, contractors and others may also be responsible - but to suggest that the government has nothing to do with this disaster is just untrue. We don't need a Public Inquiry to show that - it is on the record now.

Using this tragedy to try and oust May and the Tories shows how low politics has sunk in this country, it completely disgusts me.

When you vote to remove and lower legislation on landlords, allow building materials to be used that are banned in other countries to be used because they're cheap, allow buildings not to be fitted with sprinklers and cut the fire service back to the bare bones, that completely disgusts me.

The cladding is widely used on high rise buildings throughout the world, including Australia where it was first identified that it posed a potential risk. If materials have been used that are non compliant with today's building regulations, we can still blame the Conservatives because one of them should have personally checked everything themselves of course, instead of assuming that anything passed by the relevant authorities is correct. May as well blame the weather on our present government, there are plenty who are quick to point the finger when they have absolutely no idea what has caused this tragedy, and none of us will for quite some time I imagine. As far as sprinklers are concerned, blame the Conservatives for this as well. The fact these blocks have been up for nearly half a century, and numerous governments have come and gone, blame the Conservatives anyway. It is not as if Labour could have been expected to insist on additional safety features when they were in power, only applies to Conservatives.

Some of the 'in denial' comments in this thread are astonishing.

Of course the Public Inquiry will have to look at everything and reach conclusions but some factors are surely known.

The fire spread quickly through or behind the new cladding that was put up last year. It followed a pattern seen in other recent fire disasters around the world. The type and composition of the cladding and the insulation panels behind it have been described and discussed in detail over the past day or so - all on the record. The smoke and toxic fumes also travelled very quickly through the building showing that internal fire stopping measures were missing or compromised - and it will be up to the Inquiry to determine when and how that happened. The council and contractors insist that everything they did to the block complied with current building and fire regulations. They could well be right - but that is one of the problems.

After the Lakanal House fire in 2009 when 6 died it took many months for the London Fire Brigade investigation to conclude - but that at least produced new fire safety guidance that was adopted by most landlords in the UK. Local fire services worked closely with landlords on their implementation programmes at the start - but much less so as staffing cuts hit from 2010. The Coroners Inquest was held up by years whilst the Met investigated potential criminal charges (and that finally took 8 years to conclude when Southwark council were fined). The Coroner made his recommendations in 2013 - 4 years ago. Several of them were rejected by government ministers and the key one to amend Building Regs to outlaw the use of cladding/insulation of the type used in Grenfell has been delayed and delayed for over 4 years with no progress at all. That is outrageous.

None of us know if lives would have been lost if the block hadn't been clad last year - but it seems clear that the cladding made the impact of the fire much worse, and that could have been avoided if government had taken the Coroner's findings after Lakanal seriously. They didn't, and they deserve all the criticism they're getting. That isn't cheap political point scoring or making up things to hit the Tories with - it is reflecting the massive frustration of the whole public housing sector after the last tragedy that was supposed to be the last.

denial of what....
one bunch of people saying hold on until we know..
another group who having no answers other than made up rubish for 2 months have all become experts in fires and its TMs personal fault.. this cladding {if it turns out to be the cladding } has been used by both tory and labour councils seemingly to reduce costs.

If the Building Regs had been changed in 2013 as recommended by the Lakanal House Coroner then this type of cladding would not have been put on Grenfell tower block last year. The council and TMO wouldn't have been allowed to choose it. The government rejected or slow timed some of the most important recommendations.

Any Public Inquiry or Inquest will throw up a lot of detail and make a lot of new recommendations but you have to be in total denial to think the cladding (or the insulation/void/framework behind the panels) did not contribute massively to the rapid spread of this fire and its jumping between floors. There may be other factors but that is a big one and the government is responsible for a failure to act.

I don't know how many people who comment in this thread are experts - but I did spend 4 years after 2009 leading the Sheffield council housing response to the Lakanal fire and working closely with Fire & Rescue, other landlords, government civil servants and tenants - and I know that government inaction (which seems to have come from ministers) has hamstrung a lot of the work that could have been done to make blocks safer. From what I have seen and heard and read the reason is that the costs that would come with higher fire safety standards didn't fit with the austerity agenda.

I don't think it's Theresa May's personal fault (though she and Eric Pickles ran the Home Office and CLG after Lakanal House). I think there are some ministers at personal fault for blocking national fire safety standard improvements, but more than that it is a collective fault of the government. The council, TMO, contractors and others may also be responsible - but to suggest that the government has nothing to do with this disaster is just untrue. We don't need a Public Inquiry to show that - it is on the record now.

was replying to your denial remark which seemed to suggest there were people on here trying to absolve the government of any and all blame.
truth is they were reasoned responses to the usual suspects wanting to blame this soley on one person. encouraged by comrade corbyn who has now switched on his selective compassion switch and is attempting to stir things up and be as divisive as possible on the back of a national tragedy.
shame on him and shame on all those that know damn well this to be true.

Using this tragedy to try and oust May and the Tories shows how low politics has sunk in this country, it completely disgusts me.

When you vote to remove and lower legislation on landlords, allow building materials to be used that are banned in other countries to be used because they're cheap, allow buildings not to be fitted with sprinklers and cut the fire service back to the bare bones, that completely disgusts me.

The cladding is widely used on high rise buildings throughout the world, including Australia where it was first identified that it posed a potential risk. If materials have been used that are non compliant with today's building regulations, we can still blame the Conservatives because one of them should have personally checked everything themselves of course, instead of assuming that anything passed by the relevant authorities is correct. May as well blame the weather on our present government, there are plenty who are quick to point the finger when they have absolutely no idea what has caused this tragedy, and none of us will for quite some time I imagine. As far as sprinklers are concerned, blame the Conservatives for this as well. The fact these blocks have been up for nearly half a century, and numerous governments have come and gone, blame the Conservatives anyway. It is not as if Labour could have been expected to insist on additional safety features when they were in power, only applies to Conservatives.

Some of the 'in denial' comments in this thread are astonishing.

Of course the Public Inquiry will have to look at everything and reach conclusions but some factors are surely known.

The fire spread quickly through or behind the new cladding that was put up last year. It followed a pattern seen in other recent fire disasters around the world. The type and composition of the cladding and the insulation panels behind it have been described and discussed in detail over the past day or so - all on the record. The smoke and toxic fumes also travelled very quickly through the building showing that internal fire stopping measures were missing or compromised - and it will be up to the Inquiry to determine when and how that happened. The council and contractors insist that everything they did to the block complied with current building and fire regulations. They could well be right - but that is one of the problems.

After the Lakanal House fire in 2009 when 6 died it took many months for the London Fire Brigade investigation to conclude - but that at least produced new fire safety guidance that was adopted by most landlords in the UK. Local fire services worked closely with landlords on their implementation programmes at the start - but much less so as staffing cuts hit from 2010. The Coroners Inquest was held up by years whilst the Met investigated potential criminal charges (and that finally took 8 years to conclude when Southwark council were fined). The Coroner made his recommendations in 2013 - 4 years ago. Several of them were rejected by government ministers and the key one to amend Building Regs to outlaw the use of cladding/insulation of the type used in Grenfell has been delayed and delayed for over 4 years with no progress at all. That is outrageous.

None of us know if lives would have been lost if the block hadn't been clad last year - but it seems clear that the cladding made the impact of the fire much worse, and that could have been avoided if government had taken the Coroner's findings after Lakanal seriously. They didn't, and they deserve all the criticism they're getting. That isn't cheap political point scoring or making up things to hit the Tories with - it is reflecting the massive frustration of the whole public housing sector after the last tragedy that was supposed to be the last.

denial of what....
one bunch of people saying hold on until we know..
another group who having no answers other than made up rubish for 2 months have all become experts in fires and its TMs personal fault.. this cladding {if it turns out to be the cladding } has been used by both tory and labour councils seemingly to reduce costs.

If that is correct then you have to look at Austerity cuts

Using this tragedy to try and oust May and the Tories shows how low politics has sunk in this country, it completely disgusts me.

When you vote to remove and lower legislation on landlords, allow building materials to be used that are banned in other countries to be used because they're cheap, allow buildings not to be fitted with sprinklers and cut the fire service back to the bare bones, that completely disgusts me.

The cladding is widely used on high rise buildings throughout the world, including Australia where it was first identified that it posed a potential risk. If materials have been used that are non compliant with today's building regulations, we can still blame the Conservatives because one of them should have personally checked everything themselves of course, instead of assuming that anything passed by the relevant authorities is correct. May as well blame the weather on our present government, there are plenty who are quick to point the finger when they have absolutely no idea what has caused this tragedy, and none of us will for quite some time I imagine. As far as sprinklers are concerned, blame the Conservatives for this as well. The fact these blocks have been up for nearly half a century, and numerous governments have come and gone, blame the Conservatives anyway. It is not as if Labour could have been expected to insist on additional safety features when they were in power, only applies to Conservatives.

Some of the 'in denial' comments in this thread are astonishing.

Of course the Public Inquiry will have to look at everything and reach conclusions but some factors are surely known.

The fire spread quickly through or behind the new cladding that was put up last year. It followed a pattern seen in other recent fire disasters around the world. The type and composition of the cladding and the insulation panels behind it have been described and discussed in detail over the past day or so - all on the record. The smoke and toxic fumes also travelled very quickly through the building showing that internal fire stopping measures were missing or compromised - and it will be up to the Inquiry to determine when and how that happened. The council and contractors insist that everything they did to the block complied with current building and fire regulations. They could well be right - but that is one of the problems.

After the Lakanal House fire in 2009 when 6 died it took many months for the London Fire Brigade investigation to conclude - but that at least produced new fire safety guidance that was adopted by most landlords in the UK. Local fire services worked closely with landlords on their implementation programmes at the start - but much less so as staffing cuts hit from 2010. The Coroners Inquest was held up by years whilst the Met investigated potential criminal charges (and that finally took 8 years to conclude when Southwark council were fined). The Coroner made his recommendations in 2013 - 4 years ago. Several of them were rejected by government ministers and the key one to amend Building Regs to outlaw the use of cladding/insulation of the type used in Grenfell has been delayed and delayed for over 4 years with no progress at all. That is outrageous.

None of us know if lives would have been lost if the block hadn't been clad last year - but it seems clear that the cladding made the impact of the fire much worse, and that could have been avoided if government had taken the Coroner's findings after Lakanal seriously. They didn't, and they deserve all the criticism they're getting. That isn't cheap political point scoring or making up things to hit the Tories with - it is reflecting the massive frustration of the whole public housing sector after the last tragedy that was supposed to be the last.

denial of what....
one bunch of people saying hold on until we know..
another group who having no answers other than made up rubish for 2 months have all become experts in fires and its TMs personal fault.. this cladding {if it turns out to be the cladding } has been used by both tory and labour councils seemingly to reduce costs.

If that is correct then you have to look at Austerity cuts

Yes because then you can blame the evil Torys, as I understand it the money came from an environmental fund and one theory is green issues trumped saftey issues. Seems in the rush to blame Teressa May for all of this the victims have simply become pawns in a political blame game.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... ire-safety

Gate money from the Brentford- Southampton friendly is going to the Grenfell Towers Disaster Fund

https://www.brentfordfc.com/news/2017/j ... -friendly/

I think Fulham have also helped to support the community relief effort.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/17/tragedy-grenfell-tower-lives-money-fire-safety

I see your link is to the only newspaper that is more left wing than The Mirror. Personally, I would never quote or pay any attention to anything I read in The Sun or The Mail because they will spout rubbish in favour of the Conservatives, and likewise I pay little attention to the Mirror or Guardian because they they do the complete opposite.

Using this tragedy to try and oust May and the Tories shows how low politics has sunk in this country, it completely disgusts me.

When you vote to remove and lower legislation on landlords, allow building materials to be used that are banned in other countries to be used because they're cheap, allow buildings not to be fitted with sprinklers and cut the fire service back to the bare bones, that completely disgusts me.

The cladding is widely used on high rise buildings throughout the world, including Australia where it was first identified that it posed a potential risk. If materials have been used that are non compliant with today's building regulations, we can still blame the Conservatives because one of them should have personally checked everything themselves of course, instead of assuming that anything passed by the relevant authorities is correct. May as well blame the weather on our present government, there are plenty who are quick to point the finger when they have absolutely no idea what has caused this tragedy, and none of us will for quite some time I imagine. As far as sprinklers are concerned, blame the Conservatives for this as well. The fact these blocks have been up for nearly half a century, and numerous governments have come and gone, blame the Conservatives anyway. It is not as if Labour could have been expected to insist on additional safety features when they were in power, only applies to Conservatives.

Some of the 'in denial' comments in this thread are astonishing.

Of course the Public Inquiry will have to look at everything and reach conclusions but some factors are surely known.

The fire spread quickly through or behind the new cladding that was put up last year. It followed a pattern seen in other recent fire disasters around the world. The type and composition of the cladding and the insulation panels behind it have been described and discussed in detail over the past day or so - all on the record. The smoke and toxic fumes also travelled very quickly through the building showing that internal fire stopping measures were missing or compromised - and it will be up to the Inquiry to determine when and how that happened. The council and contractors insist that everything they did to the block complied with current building and fire regulations. They could well be right - but that is one of the problems.

After the Lakanal House fire in 2009 when 6 died it took many months for the London Fire Brigade investigation to conclude - but that at least produced new fire safety guidance that was adopted by most landlords in the UK. Local fire services worked closely with landlords on their implementation programmes at the start - but much less so as staffing cuts hit from 2010. The Coroners Inquest was held up by years whilst the Met investigated potential criminal charges (and that finally took 8 years to conclude when Southwark council were fined). The Coroner made his recommendations in 2013 - 4 years ago. Several of them were rejected by government ministers and the key one to amend Building Regs to outlaw the use of cladding/insulation of the type used in Grenfell has been delayed and delayed for over 4 years with no progress at all. That is outrageous.

None of us know if lives would have been lost if the block hadn't been clad last year - but it seems clear that the cladding made the impact of the fire much worse, and that could have been avoided if government had taken the Coroner's findings after Lakanal seriously. They didn't, and they deserve all the criticism they're getting. That isn't cheap political point scoring or making up things to hit the Tories with - it is reflecting the massive frustration of the whole public housing sector after the last tragedy that was supposed to be the last.

denial of what....
one bunch of people saying hold on until we know..
another group who having no answers other than made up rubish for 2 months have all become experts in fires and its TMs personal fault.. this cladding {if it turns out to be the cladding } has been used by both tory and labour councils seemingly to reduce costs.

If that is correct then you have to look at Austerity cuts

looks like 10minutes after the fire started youd already made your mind up who was to blame.
you obviously dont really care about the tragedy, or what was the actual cause . just the politics.socialist my arse.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/17/tragedy-grenfell-tower-lives-money-fire-safety

I see your link is to the only newspaper that is more left wing than The Mirror. Personally, I would never quote or pay any attention to anything I read in The Sun or The Mail because they will spout rubbish in favour of the Conservatives, and likewise I pay little attention to the Mirror or Guardian because they they do the complete opposite.

Is that the best you can do?

The Guardian piece is pretty much an interview with Ronnie King, secretary of the all-party parliamentary group on fire safety.

He is apolitical and vastly experienced as a former fireman and Chief Fire Officer.

Most newspapers carried the same story in print and online, and used the same quotes. So did the BBC, Sky News and many other broadcasters.

Just for balance, try this from The Sun that also uses the Ronnie King quotes. If that is an example of a paper 'spouting rubbish in favour of the Conservatives' then they really are in trouble.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3824764/c ... installed/

Using this tragedy to try and oust May and the Tories shows how low politics has sunk in this country, it completely disgusts me.

When you vote to remove and lower legislation on landlords, allow building materials to be used that are banned in other countries to be used because they're cheap, allow buildings not to be fitted with sprinklers and cut the fire service back to the bare bones, that completely disgusts me.

The cladding is widely used on high rise buildings throughout the world, including Australia where it was first identified that it posed a potential risk. If materials have been used that are non compliant with today's building regulations, we can still blame the Conservatives because one of them should have personally checked everything themselves of course, instead of assuming that anything passed by the relevant authorities is correct. May as well blame the weather on our present government, there are plenty who are quick to point the finger when they have absolutely no idea what has caused this tragedy, and none of us will for quite some time I imagine. As far as sprinklers are concerned, blame the Conservatives for this as well. The fact these blocks have been up for nearly half a century, and numerous governments have come and gone, blame the Conservatives anyway. It is not as if Labour could have been expected to insist on additional safety features when they were in power, only applies to Conservatives.

Some of the 'in denial' comments in this thread are astonishing.

Of course the Public Inquiry will have to look at everything and reach conclusions but some factors are surely known.

The fire spread quickly through or behind the new cladding that was put up last year. It followed a pattern seen in other recent fire disasters around the world. The type and composition of the cladding and the insulation panels behind it have been described and discussed in detail over the past day or so - all on the record. The smoke and toxic fumes also travelled very quickly through the building showing that internal fire stopping measures were missing or compromised - and it will be up to the Inquiry to determine when and how that happened. The council and contractors insist that everything they did to the block complied with current building and fire regulations. They could well be right - but that is one of the problems.

After the Lakanal House fire in 2009 when 6 died it took many months for the London Fire Brigade investigation to conclude - but that at least produced new fire safety guidance that was adopted by most landlords in the UK. Local fire services worked closely with landlords on their implementation programmes at the start - but much less so as staffing cuts hit from 2010. The Coroners Inquest was held up by years whilst the Met investigated potential criminal charges (and that finally took 8 years to conclude when Southwark council were fined). The Coroner made his recommendations in 2013 - 4 years ago. Several of them were rejected by government ministers and the key one to amend Building Regs to outlaw the use of cladding/insulation of the type used in Grenfell has been delayed and delayed for over 4 years with no progress at all. That is outrageous.

None of us know if lives would have been lost if the block hadn't been clad last year - but it seems clear that the cladding made the impact of the fire much worse, and that could have been avoided if government had taken the Coroner's findings after Lakanal seriously. They didn't, and they deserve all the criticism they're getting. That isn't cheap political point scoring or making up things to hit the Tories with - it is reflecting the massive frustration of the whole public housing sector after the last tragedy that was supposed to be the last.

denial of what....
one bunch of people saying hold on until we know..
another group who having no answers other than made up rubish for 2 months have all become experts in fires and its TMs personal fault.. this cladding {if it turns out to be the cladding } has been used by both tory and labour councils seemingly to reduce costs.

If that is correct then you have to look at Austerity cuts

Yes because then you can blame the evil Torys, as I understand it the money came from an environmental fund and one theory is green issues trumped saftey issues. Seems in the rush to blame Teressa May for all of this the victims have simply become pawns in a political blame game.

Jock, I don't think anything trumps health and safety. That said in this case common sense trumped the health and safety advice, they ignored the rules to stay put and 100's of people are alive this morning who wouldn't have been if they hadn't got out in the very early stages.

There's no compromise on health and safety spending, although I think its misguided a lot of the time. Nobody at this level would instruct on a project that needed to reflect savings in safety. Its taken as a given.

This will be a design or construction issue and probably both. There are huge cost issues with local authority budgets. The dash into " partnering 15 years ago " has delivered appalling value for money. I haven't worked with Rydon but I 've worked with most of the others in the south east at some point and most are shambles in spending terms. Interestingly some of those first into partnering all those years ago are now moving away fro it.