Vince Alm: "So many Clubs"

Vince Alm: "So many clubs with big support"

"You forget how many big clubs are in this division until you look at some of the away support today."

Wolves had about 4-5000 by the looks of it at Barnsley; Leeds had 3,000 sell out in Ipswich; Villa sold out Forest; Sunderland following bottom of the league not to far off a 1,000 for a 12.30 kick off. Derby at Birmingham only about 40 mile away I know but another sell out again."

"It is a great division."

Replies



Phil Stead:
But they didn’t disenfranchise much of their core support by changing their identity.




Nigel Harris:
Agree with you Phil. I was a minimum 10 aways, usually closer to 20, all my life but it's not even a handful anymore since the rebrand. Always at home games (nearly always) but I no longer feel the need to be there for awaydays. Plently like me. 2 this season so far but am hoping to do a couple more.

Replies


Leigh James :
Vince you can't compare away fans unless you compare travel distances at the same time, then it's an equal playing field




Vince Alm:
Bristol only 40 miles Leigh and we haven't sold out there since the play off game in 2003.

And all of them except Barnsley have probably had bigger away support than us for ever? Even going back to our hey day late 70s/80s, wonder if those clubs away support is less now than in their heydays?

Replies



Phil Stead:
But they didn’t disenfranchise much of their core support by changing their identity.




Nigel Harris:
Agree with you Phil. I was a minimum 10 aways, usually closer to 20, all my life but it's not even a handful anymore since the rebrand. Always at home games (nearly always) but I no longer feel the need to be there for awaydays. Plently like me. 2 this season so far but am hoping to do a couple more.

With respect to Phil and Nigel, I suspect that (like others) at least part of their decisions came down to personal demographics and Nigel sums it up perfectly with his "I no longer feel the need to be there for away days"

It's simply not right that the majority (there will always be exceptions) stopped going "because of the rebrand" as there was still a huge following (indeed, some of the best we've seen in many a year) during the Premier League season and at the start of the following season, when City were in the 'other' colour

Phil is correct that there was a feeling of disenfranchisement. Vincent Tan should (probably has privately) take a look at his own actions/responses in that period. But was it as big and as genuine as some would have us believe?

Personally, I believe not, as although the signs of unrest began over the Malky situation, the whole situation only really took off after relegation and a (relatively) poor start under OGS the following season

Yes, there was unrest amongst the hardcore, yes were protests to a fashion and yes, some people stayed away; but the simple fact is that with the exception of the few who stood by their convictions, the majority either carried on as normal or simply 'stuck by their club' during some pretty dark days but definitely not the worst we've ever been through

Leigh James also makes a good point when citing the distances some clubs fans have to travel to away games and it is surely no coincidence that some of our best away attendances are to clubs where both kick off times and travel distance are within a two (maybe there hour) journey?

I always enjoy an away day with the City and seeing us win often gives me a better feeling than it does at home (Wolves this season was amongst the best I've experienced, mainly thanks to their ego-inflated fans) but people nowadays have far more to do with their time and will be very selective

It's just how it is and both club and supporters need to be concentrating on how we can move forward together rather than looking back in anger and resentment over things/situation we simply cannot change

C'mon City supporters: The future is BRIGHT; the future is BLUE; the future is YOU!

Massive clubs in this league, I do love a away day with poor following tho like Middlesbourgh this year. Mansfield Tuesday can’t wait what’s our numbers any idea?

Massive clubs in this league, I do love a away day with poor following tho like Middlesbourgh this year. Mansfield Tuesday can’t wait what’s our numbers any idea?

Looking at around 500+ (1000 available) as it stands

I think you’ve got to factor in local support as well - for instance the Villas, Wolves etc etc will have a following around the country - I’m not sure how many people around the country will follow Cardiff you only have to look at our own area to know how diluted the Prem welsh fans are

Replies


Leigh James :
Vince you can't compare away fans unless you compare travel distances at the same time, then it's an equal playing field




Vince Alm:
Bristol only 40 miles Leigh and we haven't sold out there since the play off game in 2003.

Can’t put a gun to anyone’s head I’m afriad, we are where we are in regards of support. Too much water under the bridge I’m afriad.

Of all the Valleys lads I used to come down with for donkeys years (roughly about 20 of us) only 3 of us bother regularly now.

Some good lads that Annis knows well in that number that would not go near City these days because of the rebrand. Sad times.

Replies


Leigh James :
Vince you can't compare away fans unless you compare travel distances at the same time, then it's an equal playing field




Vince Alm:
Bristol only 40 miles Leigh and we haven't sold out there since the play off game in 2003.

Cant deny our away support has been poor this year in particular given our position in the league. Only 1400 at QPR on New Years Day, 1400 at Wolves. (And yet Burton sold out ten days before the game. Strange.) But you cant ignore distance either. Birmingham don't have one game where they have to travel 200 miles or more to get there. We have at least 8. There are nine clubs within 100 miles of them we have 1. Some of our best support was in the lower leagues, but we went to places like Exeter, Bristol, Hereford, Shrewsbury, Swindon, Oxford etc. Reasonably close and a good day out as well. We also used to take a good following on the train but is so expensive these days that you can only do it that way now and again. Kick off times and Sky haven't helped. Reading being one notable example, though all clubs face this.

Hats off to Sunderland fans though, they have same travel issues as us. But bottom of the table, 12.30 kick off and live on Sky and yet about 800 turned up.

Replies


Leigh James :
Vince you can't compare away fans unless you compare travel distances at the same time, then it's an equal playing field




Vince Alm:
Bristol only 40 miles Leigh and we haven't sold out there since the play off game in 2003.

Cant deny our away support has been poor this year in particular given our position in the league. Only 1400 at QPR on New Years Day, 1400 at Wolves. (And yet Burton sold out ten days before the game. Strange.) But you cant ignore distance either. Birmingham don't have one game where they have to travel 200 miles or more to get there. We have at least 8. There are nine clubs within 100 miles of them we have 1. Some of our best support was in the lower leagues, but we went to places like Exeter, Bristol, Hereford, Shrewsbury, Swindon, Oxford etc. Reasonably close and a good day out as well. We also used to take a good following on the train but is so expensive these days that you can only do it that way now and again. Kick off times and Sky haven't helped. Reading being one notable example, though all clubs face this.

Hats off to Sunderland fans though, they have same travel issues as us. But bottom of the table, 12.30 kick off and live on Sky and yet about 800 turned up yesterday to their longest trip of the season- 600 mile round journey.

The top 10 supported clubs in the championship (both home and away)are the clubs who historically have spent the most seasons in the top division.the worst supported are the clubs who have played there the least seems your All TIME history counts for a lot in terms of support.

Can someone explain why haven't sold out at Bristol (40mls) since 2003? I think that tells you our support is not as great as people make out and never as been! And its nothing to do with rebrand but more to do with life changes along with people's commitments especially regarding watching in championship.

Did we even sell out our play off game against West Ham ? I didn't think we did and that was before the "extension" or the red menace.

We were a hooligan club and only notorious for that. Moving into the CCS stadium with its openness,stewarding,segregation, CCTV and severe sentencing halted that side of the experience.
We are now a normal club but without generation upon generation of normal fans stuck in the habit of turning up regardless or going away.

I wouldn't class Wolves as a big club, they are in the same scenario as when Vinny made it his objective to get promoted and openly splashed the cash but Leeds the Sheffield club and Villa are massive clubs

Replies



Phil Stead:
But they didn’t disenfranchise much of their core support by changing their identity.




Nigel Harris:
Agree with you Phil. I was a minimum 10 aways, usually closer to 20, all my life but it's not even a handful anymore since the rebrand. Always at home games (nearly always) but I no longer feel the need to be there for awaydays. Plently like me. 2 this season so far but am hoping to do a couple more.

With respect to Phil and Nigel, I suspect that (like others) at least part of their decisions came down to personal demographics and Nigel sums it up perfectly with his "I no longer feel the need to be there for away days"

It's simply not right that the majority (there will always be exceptions) stopped going "because of the rebrand" as there was still a huge following (indeed, some of the best we've seen in many a year) during the Premier League season and at the start of the following season, when City were in the 'other' colour

Phil is correct that there was a feeling of disenfranchisement. Vincent Tan should (probably has privately) take a look at his own actions/responses in that period. But was it as big and as genuine as some would have us believe?

Personally, I believe not, as although the signs of unrest began over the Malky situation, the whole situation only really took off after relegation and a (relatively) poor start under OGS the following season

Yes, there was unrest amongst the hardcore, yes were protests to a fashion and yes, some people stayed away; but the simple fact is that with the exception of the few who stood by their convictions, the majority either carried on as normal or simply 'stuck by their club' during some pretty dark days but definitely not the worst we've ever been through

Leigh James also makes a good point when citing the distances some clubs fans have to travel to away games and it is surely no coincidence that some of our best away attendances are to clubs where both kick off times and travel distance are within a two (maybe there hour) journey?

I always enjoy an away day with the City and seeing us win often gives me a better feeling than it does at home (Wolves this season was amongst the best I've experienced, mainly thanks to their ego-inflated fans) but people nowadays have far more to do with their time and will be very selective

It's just how it is and both club and supporters need to be concentrating on how we can move forward together rather than looking back in anger and resentment over things/situation we simply cannot change

C'mon City supporters: The future is BRIGHT; the future is BLUE; the future is YOU!

I think its a false premise to use our promotion season and Premiership season as examples of how good our support was, inspite of the rebrand. It is far more nuanced than that. Myself and many others I know kept going, as we knew that the day we had all been waiting so long for was about to arrive (seeing City in the Premiership) It should have been a dream, but the re-brand turned it into a nightmare. Most discussions (arguments) between supporters at that time was about the re-brand and the divisions it had caused, rather than the team, performances, which is how it should have been.
Many, begrudgingly kept supporting. Again, speaking form personal experience, I kept following home and away, but made a decision half way through the promotion season that I would only keep going until we reached the Premier and jack it in after that, the pride and loyalty felt supporting City had been sucked out of the experience, by the re-brand. From the conversations had at that time, most felt the same.

Replies



Phil Stead:
But they didn’t disenfranchise much of their core support by changing their identity.




Nigel Harris:
Agree with you Phil. I was a minimum 10 aways, usually closer to 20, all my life but it's not even a handful anymore since the rebrand. Always at home games (nearly always) but I no longer feel the need to be there for awaydays. Plently like me. 2 this season so far but am hoping to do a couple more.

With respect to Phil and Nigel, I suspect that (like others) at least part of their decisions came down to personal demographics and Nigel sums it up perfectly with his "I no longer feel the need to be there for away days"

It's simply not right that the majority (there will always be exceptions) stopped going "because of the rebrand" as there was still a huge following (indeed, some of the best we've seen in many a year) during the Premier League season and at the start of the following season, when City were in the 'other' colour

Phil is correct that there was a feeling of disenfranchisement. Vincent Tan should (probably has privately) take a look at his own actions/responses in that period. But was it as big and as genuine as some would have us believe?

Personally, I believe not, as although the signs of unrest began over the Malky situation, the whole situation only really took off after relegation and a (relatively) poor start under OGS the following season

Yes, there was unrest amongst the hardcore, yes were protests to a fashion and yes, some people stayed away; but the simple fact is that with the exception of the few who stood by their convictions, the majority either carried on as normal or simply 'stuck by their club' during some pretty dark days but definitely not the worst we've ever been through

Leigh James also makes a good point when citing the distances some clubs fans have to travel to away games and it is surely no coincidence that some of our best away attendances are to clubs where both kick off times and travel distance are within a two (maybe there hour) journey?

I always enjoy an away day with the City and seeing us win often gives me a better feeling than it does at home (Wolves this season was amongst the best I've experienced, mainly thanks to their ego-inflated fans) but people nowadays have far more to do with their time and will be very selective

It's just how it is and both club and supporters need to be concentrating on how we can move forward together rather than looking back in anger and resentment over things/situation we simply cannot change

C'mon City supporters: The future is BRIGHT; the future is BLUE; the future is YOU!

I think its a false premise to use our promotion season and Premiership season as examples of how good our support was, inspite of the rebrand. It is far more nuanced than that. Myself and many others I know kept going, as we knew that the day we had all been waiting so long for was about to arrive (seeing City in the Premiership) It should have been a dream, but the re-brand turned it into a nightmare. Most discussions (arguments) between supporters at that time was about the re-brand and the divisions it had caused, rather than the team, performances, which is how it should have been.
Many, begrudgingly kept supporting. Again, speaking form personal experience, I kept following home and away, but made a decision half way through the promotion season that I would only keep going until we reached the Premier and jack it in after that, the pride and loyalty felt supporting City had been sucked out of the experience, by the re-brand. From the conversations had at that time, most felt the same.

Perfectly put and so very true

Wolves have spent 63 seasons in the top division we have had 16 there. None in living memory for us unless you count the red rubbish I don't.

Did we even sell out our play off game against West Ham ? I didn't think we did and that was before the "extension" or the red menace.

We were a hooligan club and only notorious for that. Moving into the CCS stadium with its openness,stewarding,segregation, CCTV and severe sentencing halted that side of the experience.
We are now a normal club but without generation upon generation of normal fans stuck in the habit of turning up regardless or going away.

I wouldn't class Wolves as a big club, they are in the same scenario as when Vinny made it his objective to get promoted and openly splashed the cash but Leeds the Sheffield club and Villa are massive clubs

West Ham Away was sold out, even though we had lost the home game 0-2

I can't rem the gate for the home game?


Your spot on, the majority of our away support was lads,which have been destroyed by the Authorities and by our club.

Did we even sell out our play off game against West Ham ? I didn't think we did and that was before the "extension" or the red menace.

We were a hooligan club and only notorious for that. Moving into the CCS stadium with its openness,stewarding,segregation, CCTV and severe sentencing halted that side of the experience.
We are now a normal club but without generation upon generation of normal fans stuck in the habit of turning up regardless or going away.

I wouldn't class Wolves as a big club, they are in the same scenario as when Vinny made it his objective to get promoted and openly splashed the cash but Leeds the Sheffield club and Villa are massive clubs

West Ham Away was sold out, even though we had lost the home game 0-2

I can't rem the gate for the home game?


Your spot on, the majority of our away support was lads,which have been destroyed by the Authorities and by our club.

Your right Annis, it was sold out, which was excellent support considering that no one thought we had a cat in hells chance of getting anything from the game. We were punching well above our weight that season and everyone knew we would get nowhere in the play-offs

Did we even sell out our play off game against West Ham ? I didn't think we did and that was before the "extension" or the red menace.

We were a hooligan club and only notorious for that. Moving into the CCS stadium with its openness,stewarding,segregation, CCTV and severe sentencing halted that side of the experience.
We are now a normal club but without generation upon generation of normal fans stuck in the habit of turning up regardless or going away.

I wouldn't class Wolves as a big club, they are in the same scenario as when Vinny made it his objective to get promoted and openly splashed the cash but Leeds the Sheffield club and Villa are massive clubs

West Ham Away was sold out, even though we had lost the home game 0-2

I can't rem the gate for the home game?


Your spot on, the majority of our away support was lads,which have been destroyed by the Authorities and by our club.

Your right Annis, it was sold out, which was excellent support considering that no one thought we had a cat in hells chance of getting anything from the game. We were punching well above our weight that season and everyone knew we would get nowhere in the play-offs

And that was the last match before the Despicable Rebrand was Announced and before The Red Brigade turned on Die Hard Blue fans.


We had Great/Passionate/Diehard Fans then, Time/Defeats/Weather/Distance did not matter the City fans in them days

i was talking about the home game

Score 2-0 to West Ham United
Referee Neil Swarbrick
Competition League Championship Play-Offs Semi-final 1st leg
Venue Cardiff City Stadium
Attendance 23,029

In blue, loved the manager but 23K

The rebrand and Vinny is a convenient excuse for many good time drifters

This post taken from Mike Morris's message board sums up brilliantly the argument that the re-brand has had a detrimental effect on our current support and attendances and that what we have been saying that we lost as much as 15% die hard supporters over that time.

This is how the average crowd has been going since the start of the season.

1 23,899
2 20,872
3 20,088
4 19,850
5 21,312
6 20,900
7 20,557
8 19,981
9 19,576
10 19,322
11 19,205
12 19,411
13 19,283
14 19,170

The average attendance after home match 13 is the lowest it has been all season. The club are currently 3rd, a position they have been higher than for the majority of the season. To average 20,000 crowds, the club must average 21,291 over the next 9 games.

These are the average crowds in 2011-12. The last season before the you-know-what. Cardiff were 3rd after home game 14, having spent the first half of the season in 8th/9th spot.

1. 22,639 (5.3% lower than this season)
2. 22,826 (9.4% higher)
3. 22,505 (12% higher)
4. 22,167 (11.7% higher)
5. 22,234 (4.3% higher)
6. 22,163 (6% higher)
7. 21,949 (6.8% higher)
8. 21,960 (9.9% higher)
9. 22,025 (12.5% higher)
10. 22,024 (14% higher)
11. 22,147 (16.4% higher)
12. 22,273 (14.7% higher)
13. 22,266 (15.5% higher)
14. 22,289 (16.3% higher)

The average crowd in 2011-12 season is 3,119 higher than this season. The ticket prices are unchanged. The team are performing as well as, if not better. In real terms it is less expensive to watch Cardiff City now than it was in 2011/12. On Home match day 3 of 2011/12 Cardiff played the glamorous Doncaster Rovers with 8 points from 5 games, and being 6th in the league. The crowd was 21,863. Cardiff City, this season, played QPR having won all of their previous games. The crowd, 18,520. A difference of 3,343.

In the course of 6 years, the club have lost an average of 3,119 fans a game - despite being better placed on the pitch. I doubt if Newport County are averaging 3,119 fans.

I've heard that there are too many games, too few games, silly kick-off times, and all sorts of other reasons for the drop in crowds. Not one person seems willing to point the finger at Vincent Tan. They prefer to point at a fickle fan base, but here are figures from a season that pales in comparison to this current season - 2011/12 provided ample opportunities for the fickleness of fans to shine through

This post taken from Mike Morris's message board sums up brilliantly the argument that the re-brand has had a detrimental effect on our current support and attendances and that what we have been saying that we lost as much as 15% die hard supporters over that time.

This is how the average crowd has been going since the start of the season.

1 23,899
2 20,872
3 20,088
4 19,850
5 21,312
6 20,900
7 20,557
8 19,981
9 19,576
10 19,322
11 19,205
12 19,411
13 19,283
14 19,170

The average attendance after home match 13 is the lowest it has been all season. The club are currently 3rd, a position they have been higher than for the majority of the season. To average 20,000 crowds, the club must average 21,291 over the next 9 games.

These are the average crowds in 2011-12. The last season before the you-know-what. Cardiff were 3rd after home game 14, having spent the first half of the season in 8th/9th spot.

1. 22,639 (5.3% lower than this season)
2. 22,826 (9.4% higher)
3. 22,505 (12% higher)
4. 22,167 (11.7% higher)
5. 22,234 (4.3% higher)
6. 22,163 (6% higher)
7. 21,949 (6.8% higher)
8. 21,960 (9.9% higher)
9. 22,025 (12.5% higher)
10. 22,024 (14% higher)
11. 22,147 (16.4% higher)
12. 22,273 (14.7% higher)
13. 22,266 (15.5% higher)
14. 22,289 (16.3% higher)

The average crowd in 2011-12 season is 3,119 higher than this season. The ticket prices are unchanged. The team are performing as well as, if not better. In real terms it is less expensive to watch Cardiff City now than it was in 2011/12. On Home match day 3 of 2011/12 Cardiff played the glamorous Doncaster Rovers with 8 points from 5 games, and being 6th in the league. The crowd was 21,863. Cardiff City, this season, played QPR having won all of their previous games. The crowd, 18,520. A difference of 3,343.

In the course of 6 years, the club have lost an average of 3,119 fans a game - despite being better placed on the pitch. I doubt if Newport County are averaging 3,119 fans.

I've heard that there are too many games, too few games, silly kick-off times, and all sorts of other reasons for the drop in crowds. Not one person seems willing to point the finger at Vincent Tan. They prefer to point at a fickle fan base, but here are figures from a season that pales in comparison to this current season - 2011/12 provided ample opportunities for the fickleness of fans to shine through

OOps I had done the same


Great minds think the same

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=191995

i was talking about the home game

Score 2-0 to West Ham United
Referee Neil Swarbrick
Competition League Championship Play-Offs Semi-final 1st leg
Venue Cardiff City Stadium
Attendance 23,029

In blue, loved the manager but 23K

The rebrand and Vinny is a convenient excuse for many good time drifters

As you can see from the stats above we averaged 22500 that season and got an extra 500 on the play-off gate, I really think there was little belief from the supporters that City had little chance against West Ham, so any floating supporters were not attracted.

This post taken from Mike Morris's message board sums up brilliantly the argument that the re-brand has had a detrimental effect on our current support and attendances and that what we have been saying that we lost as much as 15% die hard supporters over that time.

This is how the average crowd has been going since the start of the season.

1 23,899
2 20,872
3 20,088
4 19,850
5 21,312
6 20,900
7 20,557
8 19,981
9 19,576
10 19,322
11 19,205
12 19,411
13 19,283
14 19,170

The average attendance after home match 13 is the lowest it has been all season. The club are currently 3rd, a position they have been higher than for the majority of the season. To average 20,000 crowds, the club must average 21,291 over the next 9 games.

These are the average crowds in 2011-12. The last season before the you-know-what. Cardiff were 3rd after home game 14, having spent the first half of the season in 8th/9th spot.

1. 22,639 (5.3% lower than this season)
2. 22,826 (9.4% higher)
3. 22,505 (12% higher)
4. 22,167 (11.7% higher)
5. 22,234 (4.3% higher)
6. 22,163 (6% higher)
7. 21,949 (6.8% higher)
8. 21,960 (9.9% higher)
9. 22,025 (12.5% higher)
10. 22,024 (14% higher)
11. 22,147 (16.4% higher)
12. 22,273 (14.7% higher)
13. 22,266 (15.5% higher)
14. 22,289 (16.3% higher)

The average crowd in 2011-12 season is 3,119 higher than this season. The ticket prices are unchanged. The team are performing as well as, if not better. In real terms it is less expensive to watch Cardiff City now than it was in 2011/12. On Home match day 3 of 2011/12 Cardiff played the glamorous Doncaster Rovers with 8 points from 5 games, and being 6th in the league. The crowd was 21,863. Cardiff City, this season, played QPR having won all of their previous games. The crowd, 18,520. A difference of 3,343.

In the course of 6 years, the club have lost an average of 3,119 fans a game - despite being better placed on the pitch. I doubt if Newport County are averaging 3,119 fans.

I've heard that there are too many games, too few games, silly kick-off times, and all sorts of other reasons for the drop in crowds. Not one person seems willing to point the finger at Vincent Tan. They prefer to point at a fickle fan base, but here are figures from a season that pales in comparison to this current season - 2011/12 provided ample opportunities for the fickleness of fans to shine through

OOps I had done the same


Great minds think the same

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=191995

My seat is the same colour (white) as Swansea.....I'm not going anymore

To those who still turn up

To those who don't

Life is about choice

Did we even sell out our play off game against West Ham ? I didn't think we did and that was before the "extension" or the red menace.

We were a hooligan club and only notorious for that. Moving into the CCS stadium with its openness,stewarding,segregation, CCTV and severe sentencing halted that side of the experience.
We are now a normal club but without generation upon generation of normal fans stuck in the habit of turning up regardless or going away.

I wouldn't class Wolves as a big club, they are in the same scenario as when Vinny made it his objective to get promoted and openly splashed the cash but Leeds the Sheffield club and Villa are massive clubs

West Ham Away was sold out, even though we had lost the home game 0-2

I can't rem the gate for the home game?


Your spot on, the majority of our away support was lads,which have been destroyed by the Authorities and by our club.

Your right Annis, it was sold out, which was excellent support considering that no one thought we had a cat in hells chance of getting anything from the game. We were punching well above our weight that season and everyone knew we would get nowhere in the play-offs

And that was the last match before the Despicable Rebrand was Announced and before The Red Brigade turned on Die Hard Blue fans.


We had Great/Passionate/Diehard Fans then, Time/Defeats/Weather/Distance did not matter the City fans in them days

Not very diehard if they stop going because of the rebrand...

The top 10 supported clubs in the championship (both home and away)are the clubs who historically have spent the most seasons in the top division.the worst supported are the clubs who have played there the least seems your All TIME history counts for a lot in terms of support.

you keep saying this...and its 100% accurate and backed up by history.facts and statistics.
yet always seems to get ignored..???????????????

Did we even sell out our play off game against West Ham ? I didn't think we did and that was before the "extension" or the red menace.

We were a hooligan club and only notorious for that. Moving into the CCS stadium with its openness,stewarding,segregation, CCTV and severe sentencing halted that side of the experience.
We are now a normal club but without generation upon generation of normal fans stuck in the habit of turning up regardless or going away.

I wouldn't class Wolves as a big club, they are in the same scenario as when Vinny made it his objective to get promoted and openly splashed the cash but Leeds the Sheffield club and Villa are massive clubs

West Ham Away was sold out, even though we had lost the home game 0-2

I can't rem the gate for the home game?


Your spot on, the majority of our away support was lads,which have been destroyed by the Authorities and by our club.

Your right Annis, it was sold out, which was excellent support considering that no one thought we had a cat in hells chance of getting anything from the game. We were punching well above our weight that season and everyone knew we would get nowhere in the play-offs

And that was the last match before the Despicable Rebrand was Announced and before The Red Brigade turned on Die Hard Blue fans.


We had Great/Passionate/Diehard Fans then, Time/Defeats/Weather/Distance did not matter the City fans in them days

Not very diehard if they stop going because of the rebrand...

So you losing your identity and getting laughed at by the person who did it, is not beyond destroying?