CARDIFF DEBT?

Anyone know how much were in debt heard were about 100 illion which isnt bad and hopefully make money if we go up?

Read this but I think you already saw it before asking the question!

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=193695

Would love to know what's (quote) "not bad" about it, whatever the figure?

Our debt is way too high but at least it's owed to our directors unlike in the past where we owed money to numerous creditors. Mind you at least we pay our debts unlike certain other clubs who then get portrayed as well run.

Our debt is way too high but at least it's owed to our directors unlike in the past where we owed money to numerous creditors. Mind you at least we pay our debts unlike certain other clubs who then get portrayed as well run.

Spot on, Gareth. Goldfish in the Liberty Bowl ring a certain bell!

Tbh who cares it's owed to our owner

Tbh who cares it's owed to our owner

Exactly Wez it is immaterial as its owed to the owner.

If Tan was to sell up today he would be out of pocket. He is not going to get what he put in. his best chance of getting his money back it for us to get to the Premier and carry on the way we are. That being continuing on our running costs by not buying new players etc etc. Of course I'm assuming we are self sufficient atm.

The only way i can see us buying new players if we get promoted if there is substantial benefit staying up and more important Tan wants it.

At the end of the day I'd rather owe 100m to someone who can afford it than owe 30m to someone like Hamman who couldn't afford it. Its all relative.

At the end of the day I'd rather owe 100m to someone who can afford it than owe 30m to someone like Hamman who couldn't afford it. Its all relative.

An excellent point.

Tbh who cares it's owed to our owner

Exactly Wez it is immaterial as its owed to the owner.

If Tan was to sell up today he would be out of pocket. He is not going to get what he put in. his best chance of getting his money back it for us to get to the Premier and carry on the way we are. That being continuing on our running costs by not buying new players etc etc. Of course I'm assuming we are self sufficient atm.

The only way i can see us buying new players if we get promoted if there is substantial benefit staying up and more important Tan wants it.

I think if we go up he will sell at least some of the club.

Wouldn't be surprised if he's already got investors lined up

Tbh who cares it's owed to our owner

Exactly Wez it is immaterial as its owed to the owner.

If Tan was to sell up today he would be out of pocket. He is not going to get what he put in. his best chance of getting his money back it for us to get to the Premier and carry on the way we are. That being continuing on our running costs by not buying new players etc etc. Of course I'm assuming we are self sufficient atm.

The only way i can see us buying new players if we get promoted if there is substantial benefit staying up and more important Tan wants it.

I think if we go up he will sell at least some of the club.

Wouldn't be surprised if he's already got investors lined up

You might be right maybe that new director

Tbh who cares it's owed to our owner

Exactly Wez it is immaterial as its owed to the owner.

If Tan was to sell up today he would be out of pocket. He is not going to get what he put in. his best chance of getting his money back it for us to get to the Premier and carry on the way we are. That being continuing on our running costs by not buying new players etc etc. Of course I'm assuming we are self sufficient atm.

The only way i can see us buying new players if we get promoted if there is substantial benefit staying up and more important Tan wants it.

I think if we go up he will sell at least some of the club.

Wouldn't be surprised if he's already got investors lined up

You might be right maybe that new director

I doubt it's him directly, but he may be the link to others

When Tan took us over we had 30 creditors and it wasn’t a total of 28 million as mentioned.

It did go up a lot but that paid for significant improvements to the team and club.

A few years ago it was reported that Tan was subsidising the club by £1m every month - and I think I'm right in saying that wasn't just Wales Online journalists, but also from detailed commentaries on the annual accounts.

The impression given by the club is that squad costs have been reduced since then - and attendance has gone up over the last 2 years whilst parachute payments have gone down - so Tan is still keeping the club afloat with his own money.

Debt conversion has been taking place (if not at the scale Tan suggested in his February 2016 Q&A with fans) but we are not yet sustainable without continuing owner subsidies.

A few years ago it was reported that Tan was subsidising the club by £1m every month - and I think I'm right in saying that wasn't just Wales Online journalists, but also from detailed commentaries on the annual accounts.

The impression given by the club is that squad costs have been reduced since then - and attendance has gone up over the last 2 years whilst parachute payments have gone down - so Tan is still keeping the club afloat with his own money.

Debt conversion has been taking place (if not at the scale Tan suggested in his February 2016 Q&A with fans) but we are not yet sustainable without continuing owner subsidies.

And they are legacy issues. We were losing a million a month before Tan took us over which is why at the last tax winding up hearing a judge said we were insolvent which would have meant being folded up not just administration.

What is forgotten is that the Riddler had already spent the major income stream for th summer (season ticket sales) so we probably lost more than a million for those summer months.

In short although it was on the books as 74 million it was likely considerably more.

We were lucky to get Tan and even luckier that he stuck by us after the rebrand debacle. (Which was his own doing but we did indicate we were happy to take his money).

Ive been a City fan over 50 years and while Tan made a big mistake with the rebrand, otherwise he has done a lot for the club. Infact I was wondering if (rebrand aside) hes been the best owner we have had in that time??. Certainly others have taken out from the c!ub (eg SH) ....very few have put good money into it!
On a separate point.. On the long journey home from the Bristol City game, it struck me that I cannot ever remember seeing a City game (or any professional match) with so many headers in 90 mins. Can anyone elzse? I don't suppose there are any stats for such things, but it had to be some kind of record!!

If we were to go up, I would like to pay off a sizeable chuck of the debt if possible to try and put us on a better foundation if we came back down. Obviously this would have to be balanced by spending needed elsewhere, but I do think bringing that debt down would be important

If we were to go up, I would like to pay off a sizeable chuck of the debt if possible to try and put us on a better foundation if we came back down. Obviously this would have to be balanced by spending needed elsewhere, but I do think bringing that debt down would be important

A 'balance' 100% has to be achieved and Neil Warnock must be like an owners dream financially!

If you listen to some, we (the club) don't have any 'debt', as it's all absorbed by Vincent Tan on a personal level, so it doesn't really exist!

Surreal but true. They are out there!

If we were to go up, I would like to pay off a sizeable chuck of the debt if possible to try and put us on a better foundation if we came back down. Obviously this would have to be balanced by spending needed elsewhere, but I do think bringing that debt down would be important

A 'balance' 100% has to be achieved and Neil Warnock must be like an owners dream financially!

If you listen to some, we (the club) don't have any 'debt', as it's all absorbed by Vincent Tan on a personal level, so it doesn't really exist!

Surreal but true. They are out there!

Of course we have debt but previously it was to 30 different people and when bills weren’t paid (and they weren’t) it went up and up. This was fine until hmrc weren’t paid then we faced being wound up.

Now that one man subsidises us the bills are paid and go on the debt to him. Nowhere near as dangerous. He’s not going to fold the club.

If we were to go up, I would like to pay off a sizeable chuck of the debt if possible to try and put us on a better foundation if we came back down. Obviously this would have to be balanced by spending needed elsewhere, but I do think bringing that debt down would be important

A 'balance' 100% has to be achieved and Neil Warnock must be like an owners dream financially!

If you listen to some, we (the club) don't have any 'debt', as it's all absorbed by Vincent Tan on a personal level, so it doesn't really exist!

Surreal but true. They are out there!

Can't believe you think that Sven.

Of course it is absorbed by Tan. Its a bit like you buying a house outright then seeing its value drop. It you want to sell it you will have to take the lost. The same situation Tan faces with the club.

If we were to go up, I would like to pay off a sizeable chuck of the debt if possible to try and put us on a better foundation if we came back down. Obviously this would have to be balanced by spending needed elsewhere, but I do think bringing that debt down would be important

A 'balance' 100% has to be achieved and Neil Warnock must be like an owners dream financially!

If you listen to some, we (the club) don't have any 'debt', as it's all absorbed by Vincent Tan on a personal level, so it doesn't really exist!

Surreal but true. They are out there!

Can't believe you think that Sven.

Of course it is absorbed by Tan. Its a bit like you buying a house outright then seeing its value drop. It you want to sell it you will have to take the lost. The same situation Tan faces with the club.

Alternatively Tan could take a mid to long term view over the debt.Whatever the figure really is,it won't look as bad in 5yrs time and more so than 5yrs ago.As income streams tend to rise year on year so the debt becomes a smaller debt as long as you pay the interest rates.Using your home buying analogy as long as you keep up the repayment as time goes on the debt becomes significantly smaller that the value of your house.

If we were to go up, I would like to pay off a sizeable chuck of the debt if possible to try and put us on a better foundation if we came back down. Obviously this would have to be balanced by spending needed elsewhere, but I do think bringing that debt down would be important

A 'balance' 100% has to be achieved and Neil Warnock must be like an owners dream financially!

If you listen to some, we (the club) don't have any 'debt', as it's all absorbed by Vincent Tan on a personal level, so it doesn't really exist!

Surreal but true. They are out there!

Can't believe you think that Sven.

Of course it is absorbed by Tan. Its a bit like you buying a house outright then seeing its value drop. It you want to sell it you will have to take the lost. The same situation Tan faces with the club.

Alternatively Tan could take a mid to long term view over the debt.Whatever the figure really is,it won't look as bad in 5yrs time and more so than 5yrs ago.As income streams tend to rise year on year so the debt becomes a smaller debt as long as you pay the interest rates.Using your home buying analogy as long as you keep up the repayment as time goes on the debt becomes significantly smaller that the value of your house.

Agree ,I think people like tan can see the long game

If we were to go up, I would like to pay off a sizeable chuck of the debt if possible to try and put us on a better foundation if we came back down. Obviously this would have to be balanced by spending needed elsewhere, but I do think bringing that debt down would be important

A 'balance' 100% has to be achieved and Neil Warnock must be like an owners dream financially!

If you listen to some, we (the club) don't have any 'debt', as it's all absorbed by Vincent Tan on a personal level, so it doesn't really exist!

Surreal but true. They are out there!

Can't believe you think that Sven.

Of course it is absorbed by Tan. Its a bit like you buying a house outright then seeing its value drop. It you want to sell it you will have to take the lost. The same situation Tan faces with the club.

Alternatively Tan could take a mid to long term view over the debt.Whatever the figure really is,it won't look as bad in 5yrs time and more so than 5yrs ago.As income streams tend to rise year on year so the debt becomes a smaller debt as long as you pay the interest rates.Using your home buying analogy as long as you keep up the repayment as time goes on the debt becomes significantly smaller that the value of your house.

Agree ,I think people like tan can see the long game

And what if the maintenance costs rise?

If we were to go up, I would like to pay off a sizeable chuck of the debt if possible to try and put us on a better foundation if we came back down. Obviously this would have to be balanced by spending needed elsewhere, but I do think bringing that debt down would be important

A 'balance' 100% has to be achieved and Neil Warnock must be like an owners dream financially!

If you listen to some, we (the club) don't have any 'debt', as it's all absorbed by Vincent Tan on a personal level, so it doesn't really exist!

Surreal but true. They are out there!

Can't believe you think that Sven.

Of course it is absorbed by Tan. Its a bit like you buying a house outright then seeing its value drop. It you want to sell it you will have to take the lost. The same situation Tan faces with the club.

Alternatively Tan could take a mid to long term view over the debt.Whatever the figure really is,it won't look as bad in 5yrs time and more so than 5yrs ago.As income streams tend to rise year on year so the debt becomes a smaller debt as long as you pay the interest rates.Using your home buying analogy as long as you keep up the repayment as time goes on the debt becomes significantly smaller that the value of your house.

Agree ,I think people like tan can see the long game

And what if the maintenance costs rise?

Not quite sure what you mean by maintenance costs but if you mean operating costs then they will rise too, but as long as your income streams rise year on year which it does in the prem you should be OK. Obviously relegation hits a clubs income streams but thats what the parachute payments are designed to offset.

BBC news item today:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/43321872

Cardiff City's debt remains at more than £100m, with much of it owed to owner Vincent Tan.

Accounts for the year ending May 2017 show the club made losses of over £21.3m, including a £4.35m drop in revenue.

This was despite efforts to cut the player wage bill to £20.6m, an 18% reduction on the previous year.

Cardiff City chairman Mehmet Dalman said the club was in "good hands off the pitch".

Accounts recently filed with Companies House state that Tan intends to continue to support the club for the "foreseeable future", with debt to the Malaysian businessman and majority shareholders standing at over £115m at the end of the 2016-17 season.

Tan has also written off some of the money owed to him by the Bluebirds following his takeover in 2010, and has converted some of his debt into equity.

The accounts state Tan waived interest owed to him up to May 2017, but "continued to make further funds available in order to provide the company with additional working capital".

They show further borrowing of over £22.1m, including £11m owed to Tormen Finance Inc, "a company which a director of Cardiff City Football Club Limited has a significance influence over".

In his statement, Dalman insisted the club was in "good hands" off the pitch and that manager Neil Warnock was "a catalyst" for "the beginning of a new era where the supporters, the team and the club became united."

He added: "While we still have many challenges ahead of us, I am confident we are well equipped to deal with the tasks ahead."

Will the club be able to make more money from food at the ground soon also? Maybe not such a big deal currently but if went up that’s 35000 people eating and drinking. Didn’t Ridsdale sell anyth8ng he could?

The one thing I don’t understand is that Tan owns the club yet is willing to convert the debt to equity for the club he owns. It’s a weird one where I can only see that we win.

The one thing I don’t understand is that Tan owns the club yet is willing to convert the debt to equity for the club he owns. It’s a weird one where I can only see that we win.

When the old owner of fulham sold the club just before he did he converted 200 million of debt into equity then sold it maybe if tan does sell that will happen too

The one thing I don’t understand is that Tan owns the club yet is willing to convert the debt to equity for the club he owns. It’s a weird one where I can only see that we win.

When the old owner of fulham sold the club just before he did he converted 200 million of debt into equity then sold it maybe if tan does sell that will happen too

It's a real strange one because there is hardly any equity in the club.

My favourite part of the accounts is in the 2nd paragraph...

"The deal was sealed quickly over a coffee and a handshake".

It tells you all you need to know about the Gaffer.

City Accounts 2017.jpg

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The one thing I don’t understand is that Tan owns the club yet is willing to convert the debt to equity for the club he owns. It’s a weird one where I can only see that we win.

When the old owner of fulham sold the club just before he did he converted 200 million of debt into equity then sold it maybe if tan does sell that will happen too

It's a real strange one because there is hardly any equity in the club.

The stadium ,players ,champio ship money it all adds up to equity