Demo

Are you claiming that Islamic states/societies invented slavery?

'Another Islamic first'?

I'm pretty sure that slavery was around for millennia before the start of Islam.

I thought you were one of the posters earlier in the thread that wanted facts?

Yeah point taken I should have been more specific there and fair play for picking me up on it.

I was (admittedly clumsily) referring to the Islamic slave trade of African people (specifically the Bantu) which dates back to 9th century (predating western slave trade by some 700 years) and additionally the widespread practice of castrating male slaves to make them more docile is I think (but am not 100% sure so happy to be corrected) was limited to the Arab slave traders.

The point in context was referencing a 'debate' in which Akala made a series of claims about the great stuff that came from Islam which is a fairly common argument and there were indeed some great Islamic scholars whilst Europe was in the Dark Ages, but if we are to judge the period objectively, it needs counterbalance, like the fact that the Arab slave trade was brutal, massive (some estimates state up to 17 million people) and happened far in advance of the Atlantic slave trade.

However, I fully accept your point that slavery certainly existed before Islam, it's referenced in the Old Testament for a start which of course precedes Islam - so yes my happy to agree that my assertion was incorrect and apologise for that.

I should have been far more specific - and referred to widespread slave trading and in particular, raiding the African continent - point noted and conceded.

Fair enough.

I'm not out to defend Islam (or Christianisty, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Taoism, or the Jedi Knights) but most religions are a mixed bag of good and bad traits and sometimes there are periods when their followers are progressive and tolerant, and others when they are conservative and brutal. Almost all of them are complex and rich in contradictory history.

I understand and accept the general point you were making in that paragraph. We should see the whole balance sheet to reach a conclusion about people or religions - not just the good bits and not just the bad bits.

As far as slavery goes I accept that Islamic slavery in Arabia, Asia and Africa pre-dated the Western Atlantic slave trade by many centuries, but that is just one chapter, even if it is the biggest. Western slavery goes back millennia. There was slavery in Viking, Anglo-Saxon and medieval Welsh societies - sometimes captives from wars, sometimes people seized in cross border raids, sometimes people traded like goods. That was in Christian as well as pre-Christian societies!

Fair enough.

I'm not out to defend Islam (or Christianisty, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Taoism, or the Jedi Knights) but most religions are a mixed bag of good and bad traits and sometimes there are periods when their followers are progressive and tolerant, and others when they are conservative and brutal. Almost all of them are complex and rich in contradictory history.

I understand and accept the general point you were making in that paragraph. We should see the whole balance sheet to reach a conclusion about people or religions - not just the good bits and not just the bad bits.

As far as slavery goes I accept that Islamic slavery in Arabia, Asia and Africa pre-dated the Western Atlantic slave trade by many centuries, but that is just one chapter, even if it is the biggest. Western slavery goes back millennia. There was slavery in Viking, Anglo-Saxon and medieval Welsh societies - sometimes captives from wars, sometimes people seized in cross border raids, sometimes people traded like goods. That was in Christian as well as pre-Christian societies!

I think I would have defended the Jedi Knights without question until I witnessed the travesty that was the Last Jedi

But in seriousness, I think we are reasonably close to being on the same page in terms of judging all religions based on both merits and flaws objectively - which was the point I was aiming for so glad I got there even if it took a few attempts (cheers for the patience though dude)

Fully accept and agree with your point around pre-medieval western slavery as well (bugger me that's a sentence I didn't think I'd be typing when I woke up this morning)