O/T Brexit & Theresa May

Perhaps you can show me where I said that.

You did not I said it with more that a little irony.

The education of future generations should not be in the hands of Euro Superstate supporting Marxist scum.

There is a valid point here (not necessarily true) but nobody is going to look past "Marxist Scum" and assess your contribution based on that.

The real issue here is democracy is being subverted in the U.K. a free vote is being overturned because the powers that be don’t want to implement the will of the people. I guess Mark Twain was right when he said “ if voting made any difference they wouldn’t let us do it”

Again there is a valid point here.

rebuttal.....

Democracy is about reflecting the will of the people.

In 2016 the referendum produced an almost even split (48/51) result.

In 1975 There was an overwhelming vote to join the EU (67/33)

Polling suggests that were a vote to happen today the result would be (54/46) in favour of Remain.

Which of these should we ignore and is it democratic to do so?

The point I make here is that a referendum is only a snapshot of public opinion at a single moment in time. Opinions and circumstances change.

Mark Twain said: if voting made any difference they wouldn’t let us do it.

I didn't know that a number in someone's screen name indicated their age. I don't think it generally does actually.
I was about to be arsey with you, but at least you put a bit of effort into a reply and, in a way it's not a bad attempt to rebut me, so I'm not going to be entirely critical. In fact I appreciate that you've taken the trouble to do so.
Look, we work things out and we form opinions and conclusions to the best of our abilities and with the best information we have, don't we ? During this process, it is often more productive to eliminate false information than gather facts indiscriminately and that's the bit where we differ .
I can tell you a lot about Ancient Rome or the Hundred Years' War for example, but a lot of it is probably bollocks because I can only rely upon what we have been told and what was recorded. We can't get anywhere near the original source material or speak to witnesses at this stage and so we'd be wise to realise that our knowledge is dubious.
In this case , and without going into the ins and outs, I've had plenty of contact with those who were directly involved in these events and the numerous mis recordings and cleaned up versions of that period , and I've delved into such matters at very great length. In this process I've reached conclusions but they came about in a complex and long drawn out manner which I couldn't possibly begin to address here.
Well, you may say that this is a convenient get out on my part , and it wouldn't be an unreasonable accusation. All I can say though is that since you are clearly doing your best ,( which is all any of us can do ), to examine and study such things, you may well change your mind as you go more deeply into it.
I'm actually sorry if I seemed to be attacking you personally. That was not my intention - goading you into looking at the stuff you've read I will admit to , but if I seemed unpleasant I aplogise.
It's very hard to unpick the bullshit upon which the public are fed , and it takes a while because it's very carefully constructed in many cases. Maybe you want to do that and maybe you don't , but one thing which our conversation here has shown is that you'd only be convinced if you found this stuff out for yourself . That's not a bad thing at all - I can hardly suggest that you should be suspicious of information put out by interested parties with hidden agendas and in the same breath tell you that you should just believe me without question.
I think you're on the right side of the street by nature and so I think you may come to see things slightly differently in the end.

You are using a lot of words to say nothing here.

I will keep it short - "Don't believe what you read" is an argument that Holocaust deniers use is it not?

If I do not believe what I read, how do I know the Holocaust happened?

You don't know anything much for certain, since almost everything which any of us "knows" is just what we've been told.
What you must do is to test what you've been told in as many ways as possible, and your ability to do that would be increased in proportion to the other stuff you know and your ability or otherwise to think laterally.
You noticed that I used a lot of words , but took nothing from them apparently and so I wasted them didn't I ?
This childish attempt to get me to question the hollocaust is terribly transparent and pointless you know. It's also very dissapointing because that sort of entrapment to appearing to speak a heresy is reminiscent of some pretty nasty regimes.
It's right out of the Torquemada play book you know , and it does you no credit.

Have you ever wondered what inspires you to try and whip up anger against those who have different views to the currently conventional ones ? That's the most important question you should be asking actually.

P.s Please don't try to re work that one into " hollocaust denial " on my part.

This childish attempt to get me to question the hollocaust is terribly transparent and pointless you know. It's also very dissapointing because that sort of entrapment to appearing to speak a heresy is reminiscent of some pretty nasty regimes.
It's right out of the Torquemada play book you know , and it does you no credit.

I have assumed that you along with any normal thinking human being would not question the Holocaust.

I have selected the Holocaust because I thought I was on safe ground in assuming that it unquestionably happened.

The question I ask for a third time is....

Given that you say you should not believe anything you read - how do you know that the Holocaust happened given that you were not there?

“people being suitably outraged by lies and misrepresentation without questioning it's validity. You see much of it parroted on these boards”.


Throw in splitting, and this is you Dave.

I didn't know that a number in someone's screen name indicated their age. I don't think it generally does actually.
I was about to be arsey with you, but at least you put a bit of effort into a reply and, in a way it's not a bad attempt to rebut me, so I'm not going to be entirely critical. In fact I appreciate that you've taken the trouble to do so.
Look, we work things out and we form opinions and conclusions to the best of our abilities and with the best information we have, don't we ? During this process, it is often more productive to eliminate false information than gather facts indiscriminately and that's the bit where we differ .
I can tell you a lot about Ancient Rome or the Hundred Years' War for example, but a lot of it is probably bollocks because I can only rely upon what we have been told and what was recorded. We can't get anywhere near the original source material or speak to witnesses at this stage and so we'd be wise to realise that our knowledge is dubious.
In this case , and without going into the ins and outs, I've had plenty of contact with those who were directly involved in these events and the numerous mis recordings and cleaned up versions of that period , and I've delved into such matters at very great length. In this process I've reached conclusions but they came about in a complex and long drawn out manner which I couldn't possibly begin to address here.
Well, you may say that this is a convenient get out on my part , and it wouldn't be an unreasonable accusation. All I can say though is that since you are clearly doing your best ,( which is all any of us can do ), to examine and study such things, you may well change your mind as you go more deeply into it.
I'm actually sorry if I seemed to be attacking you personally. That was not my intention - goading you into looking at the stuff you've read I will admit to , but if I seemed unpleasant I aplogise.
It's very hard to unpick the bullshit upon which the public are fed , and it takes a while because it's very carefully constructed in many cases. Maybe you want to do that and maybe you don't , but one thing which our conversation here has shown is that you'd only be convinced if you found this stuff out for yourself . That's not a bad thing at all - I can hardly suggest that you should be suspicious of information put out by interested parties with hidden agendas and in the same breath tell you that you should just believe me without question.
I think you're on the right side of the street by nature and so I think you may come to see things slightly differently in the end.

You are using a lot of words to say nothing here.

I will keep it short - "Don't believe what you read" is an argument that Holocaust deniers use is it not?

If I do not believe what I read, how do I know the Holocaust happened?

You don't know anything much for certain, since almost everything which any of us "knows" is just what we've been told.
What you must do is to test what you've been told in as many ways as possible, and your ability to do that would be increased in proportion to the other stuff you know and your ability or otherwise to think laterally.
You noticed that I used a lot of words , but took nothing from them apparently and so I wasted them didn't I ?
This childish attempt to get me to question the hollocaust is terribly transparent and pointless you know. It's also very dissapointing because that sort of entrapment to appearing to speak a heresy is reminiscent of some pretty nasty regimes.
It's right out of the Torquemada play book you know , and it does you no credit.

Have you ever wondered what inspires you to try and whip up anger against those who have different views to the currently conventional ones ? That's the most important question you should be asking actually.

Come on Jim, can you help us out and chuck in a new paragraph or more now and again?

I thought that was the idea, Slicker ?
Bit of diverting conversation for general entertainment- I mean we’re not going to change the nature of mankind here or anything are we !

This childish attempt to get me to question the hollocaust is terribly transparent and pointless you know. It's also very dissapointing because that sort of entrapment to appearing to speak a heresy is reminiscent of some pretty nasty regimes.
It's right out of the Torquemada play book you know , and it does you no credit.

I have assumed that you along with any normal thinking human being would not question the Holocaust.

I have selected the Holocaust because I thought I was on safe ground in assuming that it unquestionably happened.

The question I ask for a third time is....

Given that you say you should not believe anything you read - how do you know that the Holocaust happened given that you were not there?

I did answer that. You make a judgement call after you’ve examined all information still available, assessed and tested it, then you form an opinion. However, as I told you, you can’t actually KNOW anything at all from History.

Dave
You still seem to be trying to evoke my opinion upon the hollocaust, which is not what we’re talking about.
Do you have some doubts about the Hollocaust then ? I’ve heard people say this sort of thing before actually, which is strange.
Can you explain in a bit more detail why you don’t believe it if that is the case, and I can address your particular concerns.

Why do we have to pay £39 billion to leave? For once I agree with Trump, tell them to f..k off or even sue THEM.

We are legally obliged to due to a financial commitment to collaborative projects.

No we’re not, it’s a goodwill payment.

Goodwill? this centre right conservative govt? That’s almost funny

I did answer that. You make a judgement call after you’ve examined all information still available

Given you have said that you should not believe anything you read.....

What information is still available?

Do you have some doubts about the Hollocaust then ? I’ve heard people say this sort of thing before actually, which is strange.
Can you explain in a bit more detail why you don’t believe it if that is the case, and I can address your particular concerns.

This was in reply to my post in which i said....

"any normal thinking human being would not question the Holocaust."

"I thought I was on safe ground in assuming that it unquestionably happened."

it is very odd follow up indeed, care to explain?

Why do we have to pay £39 billion to leave? For once I agree with Trump, tell them to f..k off or even sue THEM.

We are legally obliged to due to a financial commitment to collaborative projects.

No we’re not, it’s a goodwill payment.

Goodwill? this centre right conservative govt? That’s almost funny

Is it? It is a fact.

Do you have some doubts about the Hollocaust then ? I’ve heard people say this sort of thing before actually, which is strange.
Can you explain in a bit more detail why you don’t believe it if that is the case, and I can address your particular concerns.

This was in reply to my post in which i said....

"any normal thinking human being would not question the Holocaust."

"I thought I was on safe ground in assuming that it unquestionably happened."

it is very odd follow up indeed, care to explain?

Not as odd as your repeatedly returning to the subject , even though it wasn't any part of the discussion .
Actually, since I'm tired of buggering about with you on the subject I shall just say straight out that you are obviously trying to get me to 'deny" the hollocaust. That's for two reasons, firstly that you've made incorrect assumptions about me and secondly that you're trying to find a reason to denounce me for political heresy.

The second reason is disturbing because it a trait of the type of people who perpetrated the hollocaust. I doubt whether you'd have much idea about what constitutes a religion, but I get the impression that your particular religion is that of statism - ultimately the same illness which drew people into the extreme and beastly behaviour of the national SOCIALIST party in Germany.
This might be news to you, and I'm sure you won't accept it. Fair enough because you are probably not conscious of it , but I notice that you become very angry with anyone who questions the truth as told by the State - taking it upon yourself to go after them and vilify them in any way possible , including trying to press home ridiculous suggestions about their beliefs and motives.
You are naturally defensive about people who went along with nazification instead of resisting as all brave and honourable men did, and I don't suggest that this indicates a sympathy with the Nazis , but it does indicate an unwitting empathy with those who choose to obey the state and defend its dogma at all costs to the point of feeling personally offended by any dissent from what it tells us.

Interesting article about one of the big hard Brexit supporters.
https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/crispin ... aking-hay/
Crispin Odey is now intending going into politics for the Conservatives!

As I said many times how on earth could you support characters like Johnson Gove Duncan Smith Rees Mogg etc. Public school spoilt rich kids having jolly spiffing time AND who are playing politics with futures of thousands of British citizens.

Interesting article about one of the big hard Brexit supporters.
https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/crispin ... aking-hay/
Crispin Odey is now intending going into politics for the Conservatives!

As I said many times how on earth could you support characters like Johnson Gove Duncan Smith Rees Mogg etc. Public school spoilt rich kids having jolly spiffing time AND who are playing politics with futures of thousands of British citizens.

You know I don't think you can complain about one form of discrimination on the grounds of class whilst encouraging another.
I should try and judge people upon their actions rather than their social or educational background.
It's a pity if we regard a decent education to be a grave disqualification for public office.

Personally I've got no time for party political loyalties either way, since it's only a control mechanism to influence stupid people who are tribally inclined , but I doubt that conservatives are any worse than the other lot. They're all despicable parasites and crooks as politicians have been since the days of Ancient Rome, but on balance I think I'd prefer someone who is well educated to someone like Dianne Abbot for example who can't do simple arithmetic and wears her own stupidity like a badge of honour.

The whole issue is rather more important than Tory / labour bitching you know .

Interesting article about one of the big hard Brexit supporters.
https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/crispin ... aking-hay/
Crispin Odey is now intending going into politics for the Conservatives!

As I said many times how on earth could you support characters like Johnson Gove Duncan Smith Rees Mogg etc. Public school spoilt rich kids having jolly spiffing time AND who are playing politics with futures of thousands of British citizens.

you keep wanting to associate voting conservative with voting to leave .

Not as odd as your repeatedly returning to the subject , even though it wasn't any part of the discussion .
Actually, since I'm tired of buggering about with you on the subject I shall just say straight out that you are obviously trying to get me to 'deny" the hollocaust. That's for two reasons, firstly that you've made incorrect assumptions about me and secondly that you're trying to find a reason to denounce me for political heresy.

I have previously said on this thread that no right minded human being would deny the holocaust.

I do not suspect that you are a holocaust denier.

I find it odd that you waste so much time talking about it without actually saying anything. If you wanted to put an end to it "I do not deny the holocaust" would have worked but hey why use six words when you can write four paragraphs of evasive nonsense right?

The second reason is disturbing because it a trait of the type of people who perpetrated the hollocaust. I doubt whether you'd have much idea about what constitutes a religion, but I get the impression that your particular religion is that of statism - ultimately the same illness which drew people into the extreme and beastly behaviour of the national SOCIALIST party in Germany.
This might be news to you, and I'm sure you won't accept it. Fair enough because you are probably not conscious of it , but I notice that you become very angry with anyone who questions the truth as told by the State - taking it upon yourself to go after them and vilify them in any way possible , including trying to press home ridiculous suggestions about their beliefs and motives.

wow bet u are glad to get that off you chest.

I would reply, but I have no idea what it means.

You are naturally defensive about people who went along with nazification instead of resisting as all brave and honourable men did, and I don't suggest that this indicates a sympathy with the Nazis , but it does indicate an unwitting empathy with those who choose to obey the state and defend its dogma at all costs to the point of feeling personally offended by any dissent from what it tells us.

Okay you are heading back to the original subject (from where I have no idea).

You accused the bloke of Collaboration without evidence.

You seem to think that evidence is something that you make up in your own head without reference to facts.

If you wish to continue this then please cut out the crap about religion and statism. If I wanted to read science fiction then there are better authors out there than you.

I don't do science fiction.
Statism, which is in fact a religion albeit an ostensibly secular one , is exactly the subject. It's what drove the Nazis, it's what drives the EU and it's what drives your defence of that organisation and it's collaborators in this generation and the wartime generation.
You want the evidence ? It's there but I haven't got ten years to present it and explain it to you, so I'm afraid you'll have to try and check it out for yourself. Takes a lot of reading and stuff though ,I warn you.
I'm too old to argue the toss about these things or much else if someone is determined not to listen, so whilst I'll happily make a point and explain things if someone's receptive , I can't single handedly unlock the chains which so many people wear voluntarily and often without even noticing them.
I'll just state in plain terms that the EU is the b*stard child of the third Reich , and one of the surviving torch carriers for the aims it had, and which good men must oppose. Of course it portrays itself as a good and beneficial thing, using complex propoganda and clever deception to hoodwink it's victims , just as similar movements have been doing for millennia. Indeed ,it relies, as they have done, upon its own unwitting victims to snuff out opposition and if there is a lesson from history on this , it's that trying to talk sense to them once they're committed to the collective hysterical dogma , is a wasted effort .

You want the evidence ? It's there but I haven't got ten years to present it and explain it to you

Okay, it is so complicated that only you and a Sun journalist can find it?

You want the evidence ? It's there but I haven't got ten years to present it and explain it to you

Okay, it is so complicated that only you and a Sun journalist can find it?

Do you have any other super powers?

I'm still waiting for the flat earth evidence.

I'm still waiting for the flat earth evidence.

Must admit that I noticed the inclusion of flat earth in that list after I said I could make a case for that stuff.

You want the evidence ? It's there but I haven't got ten years to present it and explain it to you

Okay, it is so complicated that only you and a Sun journalist can find it?

Do you have any other super powers?

It is complicated actually, and since I didn't quote any journalists from the Sun or any other paper, I can't speak for them.
You don't need super powers either - just a certain level of intelligence and education, bit of experience of the world and the way it works plus the interest to read and compare lots of stuff and you're in business.

just a certain level of intelligence and education, bit of experience of the world and the way it works plus the interest to read

But you don't believe anything you read?

Must admit that I noticed the inclusion of flat earth in that list after I said I could make a case for that stuff.

Okay so you believe

The Earth is not flat

But do not believe

Lee Harvey Oswald assassinated JFK
Man Landed on the moon
Climate Change

Can I ask why you believe the earth is not flat?

You don't need super powers either - just a certain level of intelligence and education, bit of experience of the world and the way it works plus the interest to read and compare lots of stuff and you're in business.

wow this must have been your life's work given that it would take you 10 hours to to explain your reasoning?

You don't need super powers either - just a certain level of intelligence and education, bit of experience of the world and the way it works plus the interest to read and compare lots of stuff and you're in business.

wow this must have been your life's work given that it would take you 10 hours to to explain your reasoning?

"The EU is the b*stard child of the Third Reich" says all you need to know! I stand here incredulous! I don't know what silly rag Jim has been reading but I think he means "The EU is the dove of peace borne out of the embers of the Third Reich". The whole raison d'etre of the EU was to curtail German military expansionism and to prevent any further Franco-German conflict. Sounds pretty good to me.

You don't need super powers either - just a certain level of intelligence and education, bit of experience of the world and the way it works plus the interest to read and compare lots of stuff and you're in business.

wow this must have been your life's work given that it would take you 10 hours to to explain your reasoning?

"The EU is the b*stard child of the Third Reich" says all you need to know! I stand here incredulous! I don't know what silly rag Jim has been reading but I think he means "The EU is the dove of peace borne out of the embers of the Third Reich". The whole raison d'etre of the EU was to curtail German military expansionism and to prevent any further Franco-German conflict. Sounds pretty good to me.

Merkel is running the show with her lickspittle Macron.
How’d that dove of peace do in the Balkans?

Must admit that I noticed the inclusion of flat earth in that list after I said I could make a case for that stuff.

Okay so you believe

The Earth is not flat

But do not believe

Lee Harvey Oswald assassinated JFK
Man Landed on the moon
Climate Change

Can I ask why you believe the earth is not flat?

Out of them, it's the one you're not relying upon the honesty of politicians to substantiate , and the one without huge inconsistencies in the narrative.