So you want to stay in the EU?

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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby cityone » Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:42 pm

captbirdseye wrote:The EU will be a better organisation without us really as all we've done is shout and moan about it since joining and we've still got this horrible colonial empire idea about ourselves.

I very much doubt that the rest of Europe hate us but they must be sick of our arrogance.

The sooner we get taken down a peg and realise that this country isn't the big boy on the block anymore the better we and the rest of Europe will be.


Oh dear :lol: You don't happen to be on the EU payroll do you?? Let's see how they get on without the obsene amount of money they steal off us every year. (£10 billion net last year)
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby Steve Zodiak » Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:48 pm

cityone wrote:
captbirdseye wrote:The EU will be a better organisation without us really as all we've done is shout and moan about it since joining and we've still got this horrible colonial empire idea about ourselves.

I very much doubt that the rest of Europe hate us but they must be sick of our arrogance.

The sooner we get taken down a peg and realise that this country isn't the big boy on the block anymore the better we and the rest of Europe will be.


Oh dear :lol: You don't happen to be on the EU payroll do you?? Let's see how they get on without the obsene amount of money they steal off us every year. (£10 billion net last year)


Was thinking along same lines. Could be why Tusk was throwing his toys out of the pram yesterday. He knows the remainder of the wealthier countries will have a big deficit to make up before too long. Bigger still when certain other countries join, providing the EU continues to exist long enough for that to happen of course.
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby Jock » Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:18 pm

captbirdseye wrote:The EU will be a better organisation without us really as all we've done is shout and moan about it since joining and we've still got this horrible colonial empire idea about ourselves.

I very much doubt that the rest of Europe hate us but they must be sick of our arrogance.

The sooner we get taken down a peg and realise that this country isn't the big boy on the block anymore the better we and the rest of Europe will be.

You really are the clowns clown. If the EU will be better without us , why are they making it so difficult to leave.
What or who in the U.K. have a “horrible colonial empire ideaabout ourselves? Btw I didn’t say the rest of Europe hate us, I said their politicians hate us.
Your not a self leather but think our country needs taking down a peg. You are definitely on the EU payroll one way or another.
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby captbirdseye » Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:29 pm

I'm not on the EU payroll.

Well you can't have your cake and eat it. Why would they it easy for anyone to leave and their position is to protect the remaining members.

The EU have been pretty clear from the outset what we can and can't cherry pick but for some reason our government has just ploughs ahead with ideas that just won't work.

Our MPs have shown that we can't get out of this colonial obsession with various antics on a weekly basis.
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby Jock » Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:41 pm

captbirdseye wrote:I'm not on the EU payroll.



Our MPs have shown that we can't get out of this colonial obsession with various antics on a weekly basis.



Well in that case you’ll have no trouble providing examples of this Colonialist mindset. I heard one Cambridge Academic saying we voted Brexit because we want our Empire back, the type of idiotic shite I’d expect from someone who’s never actually spoke to a working class person and spent their entire life in education. But what’s your excuse.
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby Black Planet » Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:44 pm

Cardiff City in blue is worth campaigning for;

but blue passports made in France ( you couldn't make it up ) and a commemorative 50p piece appear to be the only advantages (sic) that the current lot in power can put forward at the moment.
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby rumpo kid » Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:45 pm

Maybe if the EU had better leaders, there would be a better future for them. They all appear to be social ideaologists, with no ear for those who choose a slightly different path.

No surprise we voted out- they stopped listening.
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby swilsh » Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:26 pm

The idea that the EU will be a better organisation without the UK is silly. The EU functions in blocs, and the UK usually aligns with the Netherlands, and Scandinavian countries, on opening-up markets, and with the eastern European countries on resisting direct EU interference. With the UK going this will strengthen France and Germany. The former often guilty of supporting protectionist policies, the latter of overreach on EU controls. Inside the EU the UK had vetoes over things like the creation of an EU army, outside of it, it does not.

The UK had an important role as a pragmatic counterbalance to other Member States. It is a shame that it was lost in the debate how influential the UK has been since it joined the EU in policy, and general direction. But with Brexit the UK’s positive influence in the EU will be lost. This doesn’t even take into consideration that the UK is a net contributor to the budget, has some of the world’s finest universities, and gave the EU, alongside Ireland, an English speaking member state that could support its financial markets with an international pull.

Those that celebrate the UK is the fifth/sixth largest economy seem to forget we got to that position support by being a member of the EU, not despite of it. In my opinion neither the EU nor the UK will benefit from Brexit, but there was a referendum, and there is little evidence support for a second referendum has increased, so in my view Brexit we must.

The reason why no deal must be avoided at all costs is simple, if you just play through the scenario of what a no deal entails. We leave and enter WTO terms- losing all the Free Trade Agreements that we have as an EU member. Most Favoured Nation rules means that outside of an FTA, whatever tariff we apply, to one country, we must apply to all other WTO members. MFN= really bad news.

Therefore if we leave and apply say a 0% tariff to US apples, then all imported apples will have a 0% tariff. Then when we go to agree a FTA with say Australia, and the topic of apples comes up, they will say- you have nothing to offer us – we already have a 0% tariff on apples. And remember this doesn’t have to be reciprocated.

Or say we decide to have tariffs, that instantly increases the cost of our imports, makes the UK a less attractive market for investors as the cost of doing business will increase. But you say- wait! We can sign up to our own Free Trade Agreements. FTAs take a very long time to agree, sometimes negotiations can go on for decades and still not reach agreement. WTO rules will leave us completely powerless and with little leverage in FTA negotiations, as a relatively less attractive place for investment than EU countries, or countries with FTAs with the EU (Japan, Australia, Canada etc). Countries will prioritise the EU market over the UK's not because they are remaniacs, but because it is a much larger market. Businesses will seek to move at least a some of their operations to countries that support access to that wider market, ala Dyson or Nissan.

If you have professional qualifications, these will no longer be accepted in a no deal scenario, this will require another deal. You want to import goods to the EU, you have to prove to the EU's standards it is safe to do so, meanwhile also complying with any new UK regulations. Do you love red tape and bureaucracy? Then boy are you going to love no deal.

This is why no one ever advocated for this outcome in the referendum, because it is bloody nuts! Those that say businesses will sort it out. Just like German car makers have convinced the EU to go easy? Trust me, they wont. No deal terrifies businesses both in and out of the UK. It will be an unparalleled shit show, with all the grace of Leo Fortune West closing down a keeper. An intention to agree an FTA in the future framework is imperative.

Thank you for coming to my Ted talk.
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby rumpo kid » Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:39 pm

Ted Talks are shorter mate..

Much true in what you say.. I think this comes down to uncontrolled immigration. No- one was asked. The economy is secondary to that. They wouldn’t ask, because they knew the answer.

The UK was the largest economy in the World prior to the EU, and has been sliding down not up. Partly because the Germans started wars.
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby Lengee » Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:54 pm

swilsh wrote:The idea that the EU will be a better organisation without the UK is silly. The EU functions in blocs, and the UK usually aligns with the Netherlands, and Scandinavian countries, on opening-up markets, and with the eastern European countries on resisting direct EU interference. With the UK going this will strengthen France and Germany. The former often guilty of supporting protectionist policies, the latter of overreach on EU controls. Inside the EU the UK had vetoes over things like the creation of an EU army, outside of it, it does not.

The UK had an important role as a pragmatic counterbalance to other Member States. It is a shame that it was lost in the debate how influential the UK has been since it joined the EU in policy, and general direction. But with Brexit the UK’s positive influence in the EU will be lost. This doesn’t even take into consideration that the UK is a net contributor to the budget, has some of the world’s finest universities, and gave the EU, alongside Ireland, an English speaking member state that could support its financial markets with an international pull.

Those that celebrate the UK is the fifth/sixth largest economy seem to forget we got to that position support by being a member of the EU, not despite of it. In my opinion neither the EU nor the UK will benefit from Brexit, but there was a referendum, and there is little evidence support for a second referendum has increased, so in my view Brexit we must.

The reason why no deal must be avoided at all costs is simple, if you just play through the scenario of what a no deal entails. We leave and enter WTO terms- losing all the Free Trade Agreements that we have as an EU member. Most Favoured Nation rules means that outside of an FTA, whatever tariff we apply, to one country, we must apply to all other WTO members. MFN= really bad news.

Therefore if we leave and apply say a 0% tariff to US apples, then all imported apples will have a 0% tariff. Then when we go to agree a FTA with say Australia, and the topic of apples comes up, they will say- you have nothing to offer us – we already have a 0% tariff on apples. And remember this doesn’t have to be reciprocated.

Or say we decide to have tariffs, that instantly increases the cost of our imports, makes the UK a less attractive market for investors as the cost of doing business will increase. But you say- wait! We can sign up to our own Free Trade Agreements. FTAs take a very long time to agree, sometimes negotiations can go on for decades and still not reach agreement. WTO rules will leave us completely powerless and with little leverage in FTA negotiations, as a relatively less attractive place for investment than EU countries, or countries with FTAs with the EU (Japan, Australia, Canada etc). Countries will prioritise the EU market over the UK's not because they are remaniacs, but because it is a much larger market. Businesses will seek to move at least a some of their operations to countries that support access to that wider market, ala Dyson or Nissan.

If you have professional qualifications, these will no longer be accepted in a no deal scenario, this will require another deal. You want to import goods to the EU, you have to prove to the EU's standards it is safe to do so, meanwhile also complying with any new UK regulations. Do you love red tape and bureaucracy? Then boy are you going to love no deal.

This is why no one ever advocated for this outcome in the referendum, because it is bloody nuts! Those that say businesses will sort it out. Just like German car makers have convinced the EU to go easy? Trust me, they wont. No deal terrifies businesses both in and out of the UK. It will be an unparalleled shit show, with all the grace of Leo Fortune West closing down a keeper. An intention to agree an FTA in the future framework is imperative.

Thank you for coming to my Ted talk.


We have had all this discussion on the forum before. Unfortunately you are using facts in this discussion. The vast majority here do not wish to read or hear facts. And both sides just abuse each othwr. Primary school stuff.

There have been numerous independent studies by people far more qualified than me and almost all agree Brexit will be economically detrimental to Britain. Time will tell the exact impact of Brexit.I
However, if it is proved to be a very bad move, so not expect some of the chief advocates of Brwxit in this forum to come back and admit they were mistaken.
In terms of limiting immigration it will have little effect. In any case you are 40 years too late. Take a walk up the curry mile in Manchester.
But what annoys me most is people claiming Brexit as some kind of patriotic vote. F*** off. Most working class people from a previous generation ( both my parents families included r.i.p.) who fought in the WW2 would turn in their graves to see working classes rushing to break away and support Farage Johnson, Duncan Smith, Gove :shock: :shock:The phrase lions led by donkeys springs to mind (WW1). - although weasels is a better description for that Morley crew.
I am a working class and proud to have voted remain. Nis the good news this is my last comment on this thread! :thumbup: :wave:
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby dogfound » Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:06 pm

swilsh wrote:The idea that the EU will be a better organisation without the UK is silly. The EU functions in blocs, and the UK usually aligns with the Netherlands, and Scandinavian countries, on opening-up markets, and with the eastern European countries on resisting direct EU interference. With the UK going this will strengthen France and Germany. The former often guilty of supporting protectionist policies, the latter of overreach on EU controls. Inside the EU the UK had vetoes over things like the creation of an EU army, outside of it, it does not.

The UK had an important role as a pragmatic counterbalance to other Member States. It is a shame that it was lost in the debate how influential the UK has been since it joined the EU in policy, and general direction. But with Brexit the UK’s positive influence in the EU will be lost. This doesn’t even take into consideration that the UK is a net contributor to the budget, has some of the world’s finest universities, and gave the EU, alongside Ireland, an English speaking member state that could support its financial markets with an international pull.

Those that celebrate the UK is the fifth/sixth largest economy seem to forget we got to that position support by being a member of the EU, not despite of it. In my opinion neither the EU nor the UK will benefit from Brexit, but there was a referendum, and there is little evidence support for a second referendum has increased, so in my view Brexit we must.

The reason why no deal must be avoided at all costs is simple, if you just play through the scenario of what a no deal entails. We leave and enter WTO terms- losing all the Free Trade Agreements that we have as an EU member. Most Favoured Nation rules means that outside of an FTA, whatever tariff we apply, to one country, we must apply to all other WTO members. MFN= really bad news.

Therefore if we leave and apply say a 0% tariff to US apples, then all imported apples will have a 0% tariff. Then when we go to agree a FTA with say Australia, and the topic of apples comes up, they will say- you have nothing to offer us – we already have a 0% tariff on apples. And remember this doesn’t have to be reciprocated.

Or say we decide to have tariffs, that instantly increases the cost of our imports, makes the UK a less attractive market for investors as the cost of doing business will increase. But you say- wait! We can sign up to our own Free Trade Agreements. FTAs take a very long time to agree, sometimes negotiations can go on for decades and still not reach agreement. WTO rules will leave us completely powerless and with little leverage in FTA negotiations, as a relatively less attractive place for investment than EU countries, or countries with FTAs with the EU (Japan, Australia, Canada etc). Countries will prioritise the EU market over the UK's not because they are remaniacs, but because it is a much larger market. Businesses will seek to move at least a some of their operations to countries that support access to that wider market, ala Dyson or Nissan.

If you have professional qualifications, these will no longer be accepted in a no deal scenario, this will require another deal. You want to import goods to the EU, you have to prove to the EU's standards it is safe to do so, meanwhile also complying with any new UK regulations. Do you love red tape and bureaucracy? Then boy are you going to love no deal.

This is why no one ever advocated for this outcome in the referendum, because it is bloody nuts! Those that say businesses will sort it out. Just like German car makers have convinced the EU to go easy? Trust me, they wont. No deal terrifies businesses both in and out of the UK. It will be an unparalleled shit show, with all the grace of Leo Fortune West closing down a keeper. An intention to agree an FTA in the future framework is imperative.

Thank you for coming to my Ted talk.



so businesses will not sort it out because of the bloody minded attitude of the EU..thats the simple version..and i think pretty much sums up peoples views of what they wish to leave.
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby Bananas » Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:12 pm

#welshandeuropean

#wexit
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby dogfound » Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:15 pm

Bananas wrote:#welshandeuropean

#wexit



offspring of POWS out
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby ealing_ayatollah » Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:26 pm

swilsh wrote:Thank you for coming to my Ted talk.


Thanks indeed for the Ted Talk Swilsh, again I commend you for using a well reasoned and non-abrasive tact. :thumbup:

There are a few holes in your argument though that do need picking up.

The first is you allude to the fact that the UK economy is the sixth largest because of our position in the EU, that simply isn't true. According to the World Bank report, we were the worlds 5th largest economy back in '73 when we joined the EU - this is a minor point really, but I felt it shouldn't just be slipped in there.

Also, I feel the analogy around apples is somewhat misleading. The way you frame we would really, really need them apples if we were to offer a 0% tariff! If we do go WTO, the government has indicated we will where possible simply replicate the EU tariffs with slightly more generous quotas than we would have held as part of the EU to help ease the transition.

I think we can both agree WTO is not a fix-all solution, but it does provide a mechanism for a clean hard Brexit - and what will eventually follow for Britain to enter into a number of bilateral FTAs.

Where we disagree, is how swiftly this will happen. Whilst I don't think it will happen overnight, I also don't think it will be the endless wait you predict either. Going back to 2016, 7 of the top 10 economies in the world had already approached us to discuss FTAs. Just off the top of my head New Zealand, Australia, USA, Switzerland, Canada and Japan have all recently made public statements in one shape or another about establishing FTAs with us.

Remember, whilst the politicians at Downing St and in Brussels are bickering like children, there are very good people working in the foreign office with their international peers who will be working out what is feasible in what scenarios and they will have been doing so since the referendum was announced even. I have very little time for our political class but the machinations of the UK government behind the scenes away from the circus show of parliament is something very different indeed.

A final point is just to dispel your doomsday scenario a tiny bit. The government has always stated that our regulations on standards will mirror what they are today within the EU, and under WTO rules we would be protected by the standards they set for all other countries, which we already meet comfortably. Same goes for red tape, the government has already outlined simplified customs processes for UK businesses trading in the EU - and for all their huffing and puffing, the EU, I believe will ultimately do similar.

The sky has been falling in since the day this all began. Various shit shows have been predicted, none have materialised and the world has kept slowly plodding on.

It's not going to be easy foir sure, but nothing worthwhile ever is and you gotta go through pain before you can grow.

I really did like your Leo analogy though - made me laugh.

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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby Jock » Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:35 am

Lengee wrote:
swilsh wrote:The idea that the EU will be a better organisation without the UK is silly. The EU functions in blocs, and the UK usually aligns with the Netherlands, and Scandinavian countries, on opening-up markets, and with the eastern European countries on resisting direct EU interference. With the UK going this will strengthen France and Germany. The former often guilty of supporting protectionist policies, the latter of overreach on EU controls. Inside the EU the UK had vetoes over things like the creation of an EU army, outside of it, it does not.

The UK had an important role as a pragmatic counterbalance to other Member States. It is a shame that it was lost in the debate how influential the UK has been since it joined the EU in policy, and general direction. But with Brexit the UK’s positive influence in the EU will be lost. This doesn’t even take into consideration that the UK is a net contributor to the budget, has some of the world’s finest universities, and gave the EU, alongside Ireland, an English speaking member state that could support its financial markets with an international pull.

Those that celebrate the UK is the fifth/sixth largest economy seem to forget we got to that position support by being a member of the EU, not despite of it. In my opinion neither the EU nor the UK will benefit from Brexit, but there was a referendum, and there is little evidence support for a second referendum has increased, so in my view Brexit we must.

The reason why no deal must be avoided at all costs is simple, if you just play through the scenario of what a no deal entails. We leave and enter WTO terms- losing all the Free Trade Agreements that we have as an EU member. Most Favoured Nation rules means that outside of an FTA, whatever tariff we apply, to one country, we must apply to all other WTO members. MFN= really bad news.

Therefore if we leave and apply say a 0% tariff to US apples, then all imported apples will have a 0% tariff. Then when we go to agree a FTA with say Australia, and the topic of apples comes up, they will say- you have nothing to offer us – we already have a 0% tariff on apples. And remember this doesn’t have to be reciprocated.

Or say we decide to have tariffs, that instantly increases the cost of our imports, makes the UK a less attractive market for investors as the cost of doing business will increase. But you say- wait! We can sign up to our own Free Trade Agreements. FTAs take a very long time to agree, sometimes negotiations can go on for decades and still not reach agreement. WTO rules will leave us completely powerless and with little leverage in FTA negotiations, as a relatively less attractive place for investment than EU countries, or countries with FTAs with the EU (Japan, Australia, Canada etc). Countries will prioritise the EU market over the UK's not because they are remaniacs, but because it is a much larger market. Businesses will seek to move at least a some of their operations to countries that support access to that wider market, ala Dyson or Nissan.

If you have professional qualifications, these will no longer be accepted in a no deal scenario, this will require another deal. You want to import goods to the EU, you have to prove to the EU's standards it is safe to do so, meanwhile also complying with any new UK regulations. Do you love red tape and bureaucracy? Then boy are you going to love no deal.

This is why no one ever advocated for this outcome in the referendum, because it is bloody nuts! Those that say businesses will sort it out. Just like German car makers have convinced the EU to go easy? Trust me, they wont. No deal terrifies businesses both in and out of the UK. It will be an unparalleled shit show, with all the grace of Leo Fortune West closing down a keeper. An intention to agree an FTA in the future framework is imperative.

Thank you for coming to my Ted talk.


We have had all this discussion on the forum before. Unfortunately you are using facts in this discussion. The vast majority here do not wish to read or hear facts. And both sides just abuse each othwr. Primary school stuff.

There have been numerous independent studies by people far more qualified than me and almost all agree Brexit will be economically detrimental to Britain. Time will tell the exact impact of Brexit.I
However, if it is proved to be a very bad move, so not expect some of the chief advocates of Brwxit in this forum to come back and admit they were mistaken.
In terms of limiting immigration it will have little effect. In any case you are 40 years too late. Take a walk up the curry mile in Manchester.
But what annoys me most is people claiming Brexit as some kind of patriotic vote. F*** off. Most working class people from a previous generation ( both my parents families included r.i.p.) who fought in the WW2 would turn in their graves to see working classes rushing to break away and support Farage Johnson, Duncan Smith, Gove :shock: :shock:The phrase lions led by donkeys springs to mind (WW1). - although weasels is a better description for that Morley crew.
I am a working class and proud to have voted remain. Nis the good news this is my last comment on this thread! :thumbup: :wave:

Like yourself my family went through WW2, they didn’t go through it to hand over sovereignty of our country to the EU. They didn’t fight so decades later we would be handing over the security and defence of this country to a Euro Army. As for your claim that the studies you mention were independent, seriously wise up and educate yourself. BBC told us the Rand Group (who promise doomand disaster for the U.K.) were independent, google it. Your final point, lions led by donkeys is spot on. Remainer MPs and self serving scum civil servants have done everything they could to delay and destroy the democratic will of the British people. I’m working class and neither proud or ashamed of it but I tell you one thing, it’s the working class whove suffered most from EU freedom of movement rules.
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby captbirdseye » Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:56 am

I never get the whole EU army argument because what difference does it make? Our armed services have been ripped apart for years because of austerity and surely sharing resources with other countries is a better option in the long run especially with the US being a f*cking mess in terms of its foreign policy.

People talk about the EU state but we might well end up as another US state if Trump and Co get their way with deregulation. Enjoy your chlorinated chicken.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/ ... 87b5579f64
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby rumpo kid » Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:03 am

However, if it is proved to be a very bad move, so not expect some of the chief advocates of Brwxit in this forum to come back and admit they were mistaken.
In terms of limiting immigration it will have little effect. In any case you are 40 years too late. Take a walk up the curry mile in Manchester.

It'll only be a mistake, if your'e sad enough to measure your life in terms of how much money you have. Must di the curry mile one day, sounds alright..
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby Jock » Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:11 am

captbirdseye wrote:I never get the whole EU army argument because what difference does it make? Our armed services have been ripped apart for years because of austerity and surely sharing resources with other countries is a better option in the long run especially with the US being a f*cking mess in terms of its foreign policy.

People talk about the EU state but we might well end up as another US state if Trump and Co get their way with deregulation. Enjoy your chlorinated chicken.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/ ... 87b5579f64

Your scraping the barrel now. You’ve obviously heard of NATO, you know the group we share resources with, the group that apart from ourselves, no European country meets its 2% of GDP obligation to. If Russia decides to bring some of the old communist block back into the fold what’s a European Defence Force going to do.
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby captbirdseye » Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:13 am

The sovereignty argument is also bullshit as though we don't have it anymore, and will somehow get it back through Brexit. You do realise that we make our own laws and make changes/recommendations to EU ones. The US and China will make sure that sovereignty gets kick into touch when we when take 20 years to agree a trade deal.
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby captbirdseye » Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:22 am

Jock wrote:
captbirdseye wrote:I never get the whole EU army argument because what difference does it make? Our armed services have been ripped apart for years because of austerity and surely sharing resources with other countries is a better option in the long run especially with the US being a f*cking mess in terms of its foreign policy.

People talk about the EU state but we might well end up as another US state if Trump and Co get their way with deregulation. Enjoy your chlorinated chicken.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/ ... 87b5579f64

Your scraping the barrel now. You’ve obviously heard of NATO, you know the group we share resources with, the group that apart from ourselves, no European country meets its 2% of GDP obligation to. If Russia decides to bring some of the old communist block back into the fold what’s a European Defence Force going to do.


That great organisation that let Russia steamroll through Ukraine and the one the US has constantly complained about. This is the reason the EU are looking at its own armed forces.
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby cityone » Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:33 am

captbirdseye wrote:
Jock wrote:
captbirdseye wrote:I never get the whole EU army argument because what difference does it make? Our armed services have been ripped apart for years because of austerity and surely sharing resources with other countries is a better option in the long run especially with the US being a f*cking mess in terms of its foreign policy.

People talk about the EU state but we might well end up as another US state if Trump and Co get their way with deregulation. Enjoy your chlorinated chicken.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/ ... 87b5579f64

Your scraping the barrel now. You’ve obviously heard of NATO, you know the group we share resources with, the group that apart from ourselves, no European country meets its 2% of GDP obligation to. If Russia decides to bring some of the old communist block back into the fold what’s a European Defence Force going to do.


That great organisation that let Russia steamroll through Ukraine and the one the US has constantly complained about. This is the reason the EU are looking at its own armed forces.


Jock has just explained to you why the USA complain about NATO, it's because the european countries that are in NATO and depend on the US for protection are not paying their agreed financial commitment, none of them due apart from the UK.
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby captbirdseye » Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:42 am

Not disagreeing but the EU can no longer rely on the Nato or the US to protect it. Hence why they want an EU army.
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby Calzaghes trainset » Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:57 am

captbirdseye wrote:The sovereignty argument is also bullshit as though we don't have it anymore, and will somehow get it back through Brexit. You do realise that we make our own laws and make changes/recommendations to EU ones. The US and China will make sure that sovereignty gets kick into touch when we when take 20 years to agree a trade deal.


At present our sovereignty lies with the European court of justice.

You can try and argue we make our own laws all you want but the truth is the Eu can have us in court in a heartbeat and change any of our laws.
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby pembroke allan » Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:58 am

captbirdseye wrote:Not disagreeing but the EU can no longer rely on the Nato or the US to protect it. Hence why they want an EU army.



When and mean when not if there is a federal state of Europe then you'll see the idea of a eu army come to fruition, it's been on agenda for a long time and if we had stayed in EU guarantee muggins UK will foot a larger portion of the Bill bit like we do now in contributions. :old:
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby captbirdseye » Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:05 pm

Calzaghes trainset wrote:
captbirdseye wrote:The sovereignty argument is also bullshit as though we don't have it anymore, and will somehow get it back through Brexit. You do realise that we make our own laws and make changes/recommendations to EU ones. The US and China will make sure that sovereignty gets kick into touch when we when take 20 years to agree a trade deal.


At present our sovereignty lies with the European court of justice.

You can try and argue we make our own laws all you want but the truth is the Eu can have us in court in a heartbeat and change any of our laws.


Which is exactly what other countries will do with our supposed trade deals. They will deregulate large parts of laws and systems for their own profit which will probably bend over backwards for.
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby rumpo kid » Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:14 pm

NATO is a diplomatic body not an Army. An EU army will consist of French and Italian capability. All the rest are useless. They will suffer the same issues as the Yanks do now, with EU countries on the shy.
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby Calzaghes trainset » Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:04 pm

captbirdseye wrote:
Calzaghes trainset wrote:
captbirdseye wrote:The sovereignty argument is also bullshit as though we don't have it anymore, and will somehow get it back through Brexit. You do realise that we make our own laws and make changes/recommendations to EU ones. The US and China will make sure that sovereignty gets kick into touch when we when take 20 years to agree a trade deal.


At present our sovereignty lies with the European court of justice.

You can try and argue we make our own laws all you want but the truth is the Eu can have us in court in a heartbeat and change any of our laws.


Which is exactly what other countries will do with our supposed trade deals. They will deregulate large parts of laws and systems for their own profit which will probably bend over backwards for.


My post is nothing to do with trade at all.

You know it has nothing to do with trade but refuse to give a concession on your beloved Eu so you have answered a question that hasn’t been asked.

On top of that your answer is an opinion and not a fact.
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby Jock » Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:16 pm

captbirdseye wrote:
Jock wrote:
captbirdseye wrote:I never get the whole EU army argument because what difference does it make? Our armed services have been ripped apart for years because of austerity and surely sharing resources with other countries is a better option in the long run especially with the US being a f*cking mess in terms of its foreign policy.

People talk about the EU state but we might well end up as another US state if Trump and Co get their way with deregulation. Enjoy your chlorinated chicken.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/ ... 87b5579f64

Your scraping the barrel now. You’ve obviously heard of NATO, you know the group we share resources with, the group that apart from ourselves, no European country meets its 2% of GDP obligation to. If Russia decides to bring some of the old communist block back into the fold what’s a European Defence Force going to do.


That great organisation that let Russia steamroll through Ukraine and the one the US has constantly complained about. This is the reason the EU are looking at its own armed forces.

NATO while far from perfect is far better than a European Army. Remember the European “peace keepers” in the Balkans, how did that work out?
You claim we haven’t lost sovereignty yet the highest court is the ECJ?
Trade deals with the EU take longer than with individual countries, because the EU is ran by unelected self serving parasites, you actually believe striking a deal with the US will take 20 years Bwhahahahaha what a crank you are. People like you are praying Brexit goes tits up , just so you can say told you so.
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby captbirdseye » Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:01 pm

If that's what you believe then fair enough but don't think for one second that we will magically get through endless trade deals in a short amount time especially when we don't even have the expertise.

The only possible way would be bending over backwards for deregulation. Just look at what US lobbyists are proposing for our free trade deal.

Our own Government said we'd have free trade deals sorted and ready to sign on 29th March. I'm still looking.
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Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby Steve Zodiak » Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:13 pm

Calzaghes trainset wrote:
captbirdseye wrote:
Calzaghes trainset wrote:
captbirdseye wrote:The sovereignty argument is also bullshit as though we don't have it anymore, and will somehow get it back through Brexit. You do realise that we make our own laws and make changes/recommendations to EU ones. The US and China will make sure that sovereignty gets kick into touch when we when take 20 years to agree a trade deal.


At present our sovereignty lies with the European court of justice.

You can try and argue we make our own laws all you want but the truth is the Eu can have us in court in a heartbeat and change any of our laws.


Which is exactly what other countries will do with our supposed trade deals. They will deregulate large parts of laws and systems for their own profit which will probably bend over backwards for.


My post is nothing to do with trade at all.

You know it has nothing to do with trade but refuse to give a concession on your beloved Eu so you have answered a question that hasn’t been asked.

On top of that your answer is an opinion and not a fact.


I was a bit baffled with the reply as well. I thought you were discussing laws and lawmaking, and as you say, the EU can and do overrule decisions made by our courts. This was just one of a number of reasons why I voted in favour of Brexit.
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