MISSING AIRCRAFT OWNER DETAILS WITHHELD FROM AUTHORITIES

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Re: MISSING AIRCRAFT OWNER DETAILS WITHHELD FROM AUTHORITIES

Postby dogfound » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:04 am

Ibby wrote:One way the other everything will come out. Nobody can hide the information or do a runner, only saying it.



its more than a little strange the owners have not come forward and even stranger those who know who owns the plane are staying quiet. it wasn't local news its world news.so aint going to go away.
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Re: MISSING AIRCRAFT OWNER DETAILS WITHHELD FROM AUTHORITIES

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Re: MISSING AIRCRAFT OWNER DETAILS WITHHELD FROM AUTHORITIES

Postby SirJimmySchoular » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:40 am

Deano1 wrote:Cancer killed my father. My friend was killed when there was an avalanche in the Alps, killing 5 people in total. Just a couple more examples.


Video killed the Radio Star.
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Re: MISSING AIRCRAFT OWNER DETAILS WITHHELD FROM AUTHORITIES

Postby SirJimmySchoular » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:50 am

Savigma wrote:
JulesK wrote:Where does it say *killed* as I read * killing*, keep posted Sven .


This particular article says "killing", but his previous article he posted minutes before this one said

"In his most candid interview since Sala was killed in a plane crash"

The fact nobody understands the difference is suprising. He died from a plane crash, he wasn't killed. The example of being "killed in a car crash" is completely different. So sticking with the car crash arguement If the car crash was caused by an icy road that made them lose control of the car then nobody has been killed. They say killed if someone would either get charged for murder or manslaughter, which hasn't happened in this case.

I accept none of you see why I have an issue with this and I can see why. But it's worded wrong and insensitive, suggesting somebody was at fault, when it actually looks like weather conditions & / or mechanic failure played a part.

The pilot David Ibbotson did not kill Emiliano Sala. That's ridiculous.



That's utter complete bollocks ! If someone could be charged with murder then they'd say "murdered" or if someone could be charged with manslaughter, they'd say " unlawfully killed " . See, they'd have to put the word " unlawfully " in to distinguish from killed , which just means suffering death prematurely from some direct cause.
Killed by a falling tree... Killed in a forest fire....killed by a shark etc etc ad inf.

It's you who doesn't speak English properly if you think the word "killed" somehow implies culpability.
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Re: MISSING AIRCRAFT OWNER DETAILS WITHHELD FROM AUTHORITIES

Postby SirJimmySchoular » Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:03 am

Dazzy wrote:
SirJimmySchoular wrote:
Savigma wrote:
Sven wrote:Owner details of crashed aircraft, which was carrying Cardiff's Emiliano Sala, withheld from aviation authority
By Ian Herbert, Nick Harris and Adam Crafton - Mail on Sunday

Plane had been registered in US in name of a British-based trustee firm

Listing with US Federal Aviation Administration states no previous owners


Details of owners of the aircraft which crashed killing Emiliano Sala have been removed or withheld from the Federal Aviation Administration in what appears to a concerted attempt to keep their identity a secret.

Establishing the identity of the owners is a priority of the Air Accidents Investigation Branch, (AIIB) which is examining the crash.

But, as the Mail on Sunday revealed last week, the Piper Malibu has been registered in the US in the name of a British-based trustee firm, Southern Aircraft Consultancy Inc, in a way which prevents the actual owner being known.


The 39-year-old aircraft’s listing with the US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) states that there were no previous owners, though the Mail on Sunday is aware of at least two.

One company, whose name is known to this newspaper, has past and present directors based at three UK addresses. But two of those were empty, with all furniture removed, when we visited this week. Staff at one address – a mansion in Nottinghamshire - ordered us to leave the grounds. A woman who arrived at the door of a second immediately slammed it shut and refused to answer questions.

The ownership issue may prove vital to the question of who proves financially liable for the losses incurred by Cardiff City - who are legally bound to pay Nantes for the player who died before he had a chance to kick a ball for them.


Though the FAA listing confirms the craft was first flown in 1984, experts have indicated that there would be no concern about an aircraft that old being in the air and that many even older still are.

But the AIIB is likely to focus on why pilot Dave Ibbotson, who died along with Sala in the crash, chose to embark on the flight from Nantes to Cardiff at night in bitterly cold conditions on January 21.

Two experienced pilots have told the Mail on Sunday that they would not have contemplated such a flight in a single-engine plane on a night on which temperatures were barely above zero. Temperatures will have dropped by 1.98 Celcius for every 1,000ft the aircraft climbed and the pilot could have encountered conditions as cold as -10C at 5,000ft.


Sala told friends in a WhatsApp message that the aircraft ‘seems like it is falling to pieces’ shortly before its disappearance and one pilot said that what he may have heard was ice falling from the wing. The craft took off at 7.15pm and disappeared off the radar at 8.23pm.

‘The ice accumulates in all sorts of aircraft surfaces – the propeller, the wing of the plane,’ said one pilot. ‘It completely alters the flying characteristic of the plane. You are flying in an ice cube. The only way to warm the aircraft up is descend.’

Since the flight was principally across water, the potential to seek out an airfield or bring the plane down in a field was removed.


Again, it's you posting more rubbish, I read Emiliano was "killed" and gave up on reading.

Seriously Sven?


What are you on about? He WAS killed. He didn't die of natural causes but by violent forces suffered in a plane crash, and that's being killed .

As far as Southern is concerned , I've personally come across loads of private aircraft registered to them and flown in them actually, so I think people are barking up a wrong tree there. They'll give the keeper to air crash investigators or police if requested, but I very much doubt that they're directly involved in operating it.


It’s good to hear that you feel the owners can be easily identified as part of the investigation. Based on what you know so far, how likely do you think it is that the police or the investigating bodies will request this?



Yes they'll certainly request it and get it. I think I read somewhere that the accident investigation team already have it, but don't reveal such matters publicly.
Southern is just a registration of convenience which masks plane ownership in third party countries by registering them to corporations incorporated in the USA as opposed to individuals. This is done for many comparatively innocent reasons , such as coming under US regulations for tax and licensing instead of over regulated and highly taxed counties. To be quite frank it also aids intelligence operations.
None of that means they won't reveal identities to legally constituted investigatory bodies,and they do so.
The whole point is privacy and confidentiality, so they're not going to tell the press the names of their clients, but they won't attempt to conceal them from the proper authorities.
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Re: MISSING AIRCRAFT OWNER DETAILS WITHHELD FROM AUTHORITIES

Postby Dazzy » Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:43 am

SirJimmySchoular wrote:
Dazzy wrote:
SirJimmySchoular wrote:
Savigma wrote:
Sven wrote:Owner details of crashed aircraft, which was carrying Cardiff's Emiliano Sala, withheld from aviation authority
By Ian Herbert, Nick Harris and Adam Crafton - Mail on Sunday

Plane had been registered in US in name of a British-based trustee firm

Listing with US Federal Aviation Administration states no previous owners


Details of owners of the aircraft which crashed killing Emiliano Sala have been removed or withheld from the Federal Aviation Administration in what appears to a concerted attempt to keep their identity a secret.

Establishing the identity of the owners is a priority of the Air Accidents Investigation Branch, (AIIB) which is examining the crash.

But, as the Mail on Sunday revealed last week, the Piper Malibu has been registered in the US in the name of a British-based trustee firm, Southern Aircraft Consultancy Inc, in a way which prevents the actual owner being known.


The 39-year-old aircraft’s listing with the US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) states that there were no previous owners, though the Mail on Sunday is aware of at least two.

One company, whose name is known to this newspaper, has past and present directors based at three UK addresses. But two of those were empty, with all furniture removed, when we visited this week. Staff at one address – a mansion in Nottinghamshire - ordered us to leave the grounds. A woman who arrived at the door of a second immediately slammed it shut and refused to answer questions.

The ownership issue may prove vital to the question of who proves financially liable for the losses incurred by Cardiff City - who are legally bound to pay Nantes for the player who died before he had a chance to kick a ball for them.


Though the FAA listing confirms the craft was first flown in 1984, experts have indicated that there would be no concern about an aircraft that old being in the air and that many even older still are.

But the AIIB is likely to focus on why pilot Dave Ibbotson, who died along with Sala in the crash, chose to embark on the flight from Nantes to Cardiff at night in bitterly cold conditions on January 21.

Two experienced pilots have told the Mail on Sunday that they would not have contemplated such a flight in a single-engine plane on a night on which temperatures were barely above zero. Temperatures will have dropped by 1.98 Celcius for every 1,000ft the aircraft climbed and the pilot could have encountered conditions as cold as -10C at 5,000ft.


Sala told friends in a WhatsApp message that the aircraft ‘seems like it is falling to pieces’ shortly before its disappearance and one pilot said that what he may have heard was ice falling from the wing. The craft took off at 7.15pm and disappeared off the radar at 8.23pm.

‘The ice accumulates in all sorts of aircraft surfaces – the propeller, the wing of the plane,’ said one pilot. ‘It completely alters the flying characteristic of the plane. You are flying in an ice cube. The only way to warm the aircraft up is descend.’

Since the flight was principally across water, the potential to seek out an airfield or bring the plane down in a field was removed.


Again, it's you posting more rubbish, I read Emiliano was "killed" and gave up on reading.

Seriously Sven?


What are you on about? He WAS killed. He didn't die of natural causes but by violent forces suffered in a plane crash, and that's being killed .

As far as Southern is concerned , I've personally come across loads of private aircraft registered to them and flown in them actually, so I think people are barking up a wrong tree there. They'll give the keeper to air crash investigators or police if requested, but I very much doubt that they're directly involved in operating it.


It’s good to hear that you feel the owners can be easily identified as part of the investigation. Based on what you know so far, how likely do you think it is that the police or the investigating bodies will request this?



Yes they'll certainly request it and get it. I think I read somewhere that the accident investigation team already have it, but don't reveal such matters publicly.
Southern is just a registration of convenience which masks plane ownership in third party countries by registering them to corporations incorporated in the USA as opposed to individuals. This is done for many comparatively innocent reasons , such as coming under US regulations for tax and licensing instead of over regulated and highly taxed counties. To be quite frank it also aids intelligence operations.
None of that means they won't reveal identities to legally constituted investigatory bodies,and they do so.
The whole point is privacy and confidentiality, so they're not going to tell the press the names of their clients, but they won't attempt to conceal them from the proper authorities.


That sounds hopeful. Thank you for clarifying :thumbup:
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Re: MISSING AIRCRAFT OWNER DETAILS WITHHELD FROM AUTHORITIES

Postby Deano1 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:57 am

SirJimmySchoular wrote:
Deano1 wrote:Cancer killed my father. My friend was killed when there was an avalanche in the Alps, killing 5 people in total. Just a couple more examples.


Video killed the Radio Star.

No, that was murrrrder
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Re: MISSING AIRCRAFT OWNER DETAILS WITHHELD FROM AUTHORITIES

Postby SirJimmySchoular » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:14 pm

Deano1 wrote:
SirJimmySchoular wrote:
Deano1 wrote:Cancer killed my father. My friend was killed when there was an avalanche in the Alps, killing 5 people in total. Just a couple more examples.


Video killed the Radio Star.

No, that was murrrrder




Phew.... Thought I'd get in trouble for saying that l
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Re: MISSING AIRCRAFT OWNER DETAILS WITHHELD FROM AUTHORITIES

Postby City1983 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:42 pm

I fully understand the Source of the Article that 'you' read in your Thread.

The words "Withheld" as to who owned the Aircraft that "killed" are synonymous with feelings of wrongdoing on behalf of the Owners of the said Aircraft. And being withheld the information could, should and would imply that the Owners are deliberately keeping of hiding something about the Aircraft, which the Public have the right to know about. That is the Mischief that the Thread is alluding to...

I see Sven's point there where it goes into detail about the Environmental conditions in which such an Aircraft has to fly into, for its smooth operational function.

If that implies that Sala was Killed, then it has to be proved beyond reasonable doubt that the Owners were responsible for the air Worthiness of the Aircraft and, if found this be responsible, then indeed did Kill Emiliano Sala.

I must say it was an interesting read, Sven into the Ultimate Blame attached to our Player's Death.

My take on things: David Ibbotson was no way experienced to fly in such conditions and, definitely not qualified to fly for the reasons given and pointed out in Sven's thread.

The AAIB and The CAA will need to prove or disprove that any wrongdoing was caused by the Owners of the Aircraft in question that ultimately caused the death of these men?
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Re: MISSING AIRCRAFT OWNER DETAILS WITHHELD FROM AUTHORITIES

Postby Sven » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:57 pm

City1983 wrote:I fully understand the Source of the Article that 'you' read in your Thread.

The words "Withheld" as to who owned the Aircraft that "killed" are synonymous with feelings of wrongdoing on behalf of the Owners of the said Aircraft. And being withheld the information could, should and would imply that the Owners are deliberately keeping of hiding something about the Aircraft, which the Public have the right to know about. That is the Mischief that the Thread is alluding to...

I see Sven's point there where it goes into detail about the Environmental conditions in which such an Aircraft has to fly into, for its smooth operational function.

If that implies that Sala was Killed, then it has to be proved beyond reasonable doubt that the Owners were responsible for the air Worthiness of the Aircraft and, if found this be responsible, then indeed did Kill Emiliano Sala.

I must say it was an interesting read, Sven, into the Ultimate Blame attached to our Player's Death.

My take on things: David Ibbotson was no way experienced to fly in such conditions and, definitely not qualified to fly for the reasons given and pointed out in Sven's thread.

The AAIB and The CAA will need to prove or disprove that any wrongdoing was caused by the Owners of the Aircraft in question that ultimately caused the death of these men?



Thanks (I think) but the highlighted elements above were not said by me, so far as I recall :thumbright:

The owners of the aircraft could have a number of reasons for non-disclosure (adverse publicity being just one) and it is not unusual for aircraft owners to 'lease out' their aircraft for others to use and provide an income for when it is not being used by them (which in most cases is the majority of the time)

Now is not the time to apportion 'blame', if there is any, as that will be done by the appropriate authorities but the article was of interest in relation to the whole sorry Emiliano Sala tragedy
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Re: MISSING AIRCRAFT OWNER DETAILS WITHHELD FROM AUTHORITIES

Postby SirJimmySchoular » Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:33 pm

Sven wrote:
City1983 wrote:I fully understand the Source of the Article that 'you' read in your Thread.

The words "Withheld" as to who owned the Aircraft that "killed" are synonymous with feelings of wrongdoing on behalf of the Owners of the said Aircraft. And being withheld the information could, should and would imply that the Owners are deliberately keeping of hiding something about the Aircraft, which the Public have the right to know about. That is the Mischief that the Thread is alluding to...

I see Sven's point there where it goes into detail about the Environmental conditions in which such an Aircraft has to fly into, for its smooth operational function.

If that implies that Sala was Killed, then it has to be proved beyond reasonable doubt that the Owners were responsible for the air Worthiness of the Aircraft and, if found this be responsible, then indeed did Kill Emiliano Sala.

I must say it was an interesting read, Sven, into the Ultimate Blame attached to our Player's Death.

My take on things: David Ibbotson was no way experienced to fly in such conditions and, definitely not qualified to fly for the reasons given and pointed out in Sven's thread.

The AAIB and The CAA will need to prove or disprove that any wrongdoing was caused by the Owners of the Aircraft in question that ultimately caused the death of these men?



Thanks (I think) but the highlighted elements above were not said by me, so far as I recall :thumbright:

The owners of the aircraft could have a number of reasons for non-disclosure (adverse publicity being just one) and it is not unusual for aircraft owners to 'lease out' their aircraft for others to use and provide an income for when it is not being used by them (which in most cases is the majority of the time)

Now is not the time to apportion 'blame', if there is any, as that will be done by the appropriate authorities but the article was of interest in relation to the whole sorry Emiliano Sala tragedy



Yes, quite.

It appears that some here are too naive to understand that people choose their words to convey a general feeling or atmosphere to the piece. It's very easy to suggest something without saying it in this way, and I should know because I used to do it for a living.

Nothing incorrect or dishonest about the words 'killed' or 'withheld ' but the writer wanted his piece to sound intriguing and dramatic.

Had he said, for example, "The identity of the aircraft's Operators has not yet been revealed by the Air Accident Investigation Authority, who will not give details of their conclusions into the tragic death of Mr Sala and Mr Ibbitson, until they've completed and submitted their report" ..... well the impression would be quite different of course.

You can't stop people phrasing things colourfully, nor would I want to since we all do it, but I find it worrying that some people seem so easily hoodwinked by very basic linguistic spinning - no wonder they're convinced when they see these Project Fear items which try to imply that your car won't start in the mornings if we leave the EU without actually saying it, or accept politicians appearing to promise or deny something without actually committing to anything.
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Re: MISSING AIRCRAFT OWNER DETAILS WITHHELD FROM AUTHORITIES

Postby Ibby » Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:10 pm

:thumbright:
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Re: MISSING AIRCRAFT OWNER DETAILS WITHHELD FROM AUTHORITIES

Postby Forever Blue » Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:09 pm

REAL OWNERS OF THE PLANE THAT CARRIED EMILIANO SALA FOUND
Link
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=205066
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=205066
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