" A QUESTION TO THE HARDCORE WELSHMAN ? "

Got in to a debate in Albany Road Newsagents(Duddens)
I was told yesterday by a ex soldier(now 63 yrs old), Born and Bred in Wales, Very very Patriotic.

That Our Country Name " WALES " was given to us by the England, is this True ?

Also I have always been a person who Supports the Name Britain and that We are All in it together, whatever happens. A lot of Welsh/Scottish/Irish Say they are Not British but Welsh etc.
But this Gentleman told me Britain means Celts ? That did not sound right ?

Anyone Know Both the Answers to the Above ?

I am Sure Sludge will know

Got in to a debate in Albany Road Newsagents(Duddens)
I was told yesterday by a ex soldier(now 63 yrs old), Born and Bred in Wales, Very very Patriotic.

That Our Country Name " WALES " was given to us by the England, is this True ?

Also I have always been a person who Supports the Name Britain and that We are All in it together, whatever happens. A lot of Welsh/Scottish/Irish Say they are Not British but Welsh etc.
But this Gentleman told me Britain means Celts ? That did not sound right ?

Anyone Know Both the Answers to the Above ?

I am Sure Sludge will know

This is a trick question isn't it? Yes, because we speak English mostly, and the English call Wales, Wales. Wales in Welsh is Cymru.

And Britain is short for Brittania, which is either native Celt, or Roman. I'm not sure. But the Welsh/Scottish are more British than the English because they are the native people of Britain. The English have been invaded by Saxons, Normans and so on, so are bastardized which French and German and so on. Where as Wales and Scotland were largely left alone. Welsh is the closest thing to the original language of Britain I can tell you that much.

Wales is an old english word and was given to us by the english, embarresingly it means "foreigner", think it was the saxons who gave it to us but im not sure.

So when we say "i'm Welsh" were actually saying "I'm foreign".

The Anglo-Saxon word for 'foreign' or 'foreigner' was Waelsic and a 'foreign(ers) land' was called Wealas. The modern English forms of these words with respect to the modern country are Welsh (the people) and Wales (the land), respectively.
Historically in Britain the words were not restricted to modern Wales or to the Welsh but wer used indiscriminately to refer to anything that the Anglo-Saxons associated with Celtic Britons, including other foreign lands (e.g CornWALL), places once associated with Celtic Britons (e.g WALworth in County Durham and WALton in West Yorkshire), the surnames of people (e.g. Walsh and Wallace) and various other things that were once new and foreign to the Anglo-Saxons (e.g. the WALnut). None of these historic usages is neccessarily connected to Wales or the Welsh.
So yes our country name was given to us but not from England it was actually Germany if you want to be technical.

Also you can be a proud Welshman and still be British. People, always tend to take some extreme either/or measure when discussing this. It would be foolish to dismiss Britain when discussing your Welshness because they are so heavily influenced by both. For instance we speak English mostly (not Welsh), our education systems and government are all English inventions. You could even say the English for rightly or wrongly civilized the Welsh as we know Wales today. If your born in Wales to a Welsh parent, you are Welsh, not English/Scottish/Irish etc. But then, you are still British as well. Think of all the Welsh soldiers over the years that have fought and died for GREAT BRITAIN, all the Welsh coal miners who worked in a trade which benefited the BRITISH EMPIRE. A Welshman has even been the Prime-minister of BRITAIN. It's all too inter-connected by be either or really.

I don't like loyalism, not gonna lie. I have no interest in the crown as it doesn't benefit Wales with tourism like it does England so is irrelevant to the Welsh and just another reason to tax us. As Great Britain however we are more powerful and better off than just Wales. Basically, what im saying is, I am proud to be Welsh and proud to be British. They are one of the same but with regional differences in culture and heritage which distinquish a Welshman from an Englishman and Scotsman and so on.

Rant over.

Good post Annis.

I feel Welsh and British. My heritage is both Welsh and British. That is an undeniable fact. Why should I discard my British side?

The Welsh or the people who have inhabited the land of Wales are more British than the English. We are proper Britons.

The name of Wales is vague but basically means foreigner or outside. It comes from Anglo-Saxons.

Whether people like it or not, our history is comlpex and linked to England's own. We have a shared history with England. Henry V born in Monmouth and Edward Tudor was a quarter Welsh.

We are a complicated little old country.

And Britain is short for Brittania, which is either native Celt, or Roman. I'm not sure. But the Welsh/Scottish are more British than the English because they are the native people of Britain. The English have been invaded by Saxons, Normans and so on, so are bastardized which French and German and so on. Where as Wales and Scotland were largely left alone. Welsh is the closest thing to the original language of Britain I can tell you that much.

wales was invaded by romans, and large parts of scotland were settled on by vikings, also britain comes from a tribe the britons, who i think came over from brittony, also, britain was until middle ages a mish mash of tribes from various parts of western europe, and as such the english language evolved from hundreds of different dialects, very few of them like the old welsh language and not at all like the modern version, so in reality there was no original language of england until old english,and up until 1600's someone from kent would be unable to understand someone from london, such was the diversity of language in britain at that time.(if anyone is interested in the history of english language theres a very easy to read book by bill bryson called the mother tongue which i would recommend)
i would love to hear from anyone who claims to have a true welsh blood line going back say, 5 generations, cos with the influx of irish and northern english during the last two centurys i doubt theres any in the vallys or cardiff and the chances of there being an actual celt saxon or britton are less than zero, therefore we are all british

And Britain is short for Brittania, which is either native Celt, or Roman. I'm not sure. But the Welsh/Scottish are more British than the English because they are the native people of Britain. The English have been invaded by Saxons, Normans and so on, so are bastardized which French and German and so on. Where as Wales and Scotland were largely left alone. Welsh is the closest thing to the original language of Britain I can tell you that much.

Thats virtually what this Man was saying.

Wales is an old english word and was given to us by the english, embarresingly it means "foreigner", think it was the saxons who gave it to us but im not sure.

Thats what he Said, Wales/Welsh means Foreigner.

And Britain is short for Brittania, which is either native Celt, or Roman. I'm not sure. But the Welsh/Scottish are more British than the English because they are the native people of Britain. The English have been invaded by Saxons, Normans and so on, so are bastardized which French and German and so on. Where as Wales and Scotland were largely left alone. Welsh is the closest thing to the original language of Britain I can tell you that much.

wales was invaded by romans, and large parts of scotland were settled on by vikings, also britain comes from a tribe the britons, who i think came over from brittony, also, britain was until middle ages a mish mash of tribes from various parts of western europe, and as such the english language evolved from hundreds of different dialects, very few of them like the old welsh language and not at all like the modern version, so in reality there was no original language of england until old english,and up until 1600's someone from kent would be unable to understand someone from london, such was the diversity of language in britain at that time.(if anyone is interested in the history of english language theres a very easy to read book by bill bryson called the mother tongue which i would recommend)
i would love to hear from anyone who claims to have a true welsh blood line going back say, 5 generations, cos with the influx of irish and northern english during the last two centurys i doubt theres any in the vallys or cardiff and the chances of there being an actual celt saxon or britton are less than zero, therefore we are all british

Good post! I meant more that Wales was largely left alone by invaders of England. For most of History if you invaded England, you invaded Wales as well by technicality. I watched this thing before on the Normans and the bastardization of the English language. Which showed why the English have so many words for similar things and why English is such a complexed language. The nice word for something is usually Norman (French) the not so nice word usually Saxon or original British. An example of which: ''Pig'' dirty animal that rolls round in the mud (Saxon/Briton), ''Pork'' a nice meat that you eat (Norman/French). There was afew like that, it's the only one I can remember though.

The Anglo-Saxon word for 'foreign' or 'foreigner' was Waelsic and a 'foreign(ers) land' was called Wealas. The modern English forms of these words with respect to the modern country are Welsh (the people) and Wales (the land), respectively.
Historically in Britain the words were not restricted to modern Wales or to the Welsh but wer used indiscriminately to refer to anything that the Anglo-Saxons associated with Celtic Britons, including other foreign lands (e.g CornWALL), places once associated with Celtic Britons (e.g WALworth in County Durham and WALton in West Yorkshire), the surnames of people (e.g. Walsh and Wallace) and various other things that were once new and foreign to the Anglo-Saxons (e.g. the WALnut). None of these historic usages is neccessarily connected to Wales or the Welsh.
So yes our country name was given to us but not from England it was actually Germany if you want to be technical.

Hmm, So he was virtually right, I was stunned by what he was saying, that Wales means virtually that we are the Foreigners.

Good post Annis.

I feel Welsh and British. My heritage is both Welsh and British. That is an undeniable fact. Why should I discard my British side?

The Welsh or the people who have inhabited the land of Wales are more British than the English. We are proper Britons.

The name of Wales is vague but basically means foreigner or outside. It comes from Anglo-Saxons.

Whether people like it or not, our history is comlpex and linked to England's own. We have a shared history with England. Henry V born in Monmouth and Edward Tudor was a quarter Welsh.

We are a complicated little old country.

Thats right the Welsh are proper/original British people

the animal thing is mainly because the french ate animals which was a new thing to the british who were actually mainly vegatarian until 1066, mutton venison bacon beef were the old french words for sheep deer pig cow ect which is why cow on a plate is called beef and a deer on a plate is called venison ect

Etymology of Wales The Anglo-Saxon word for 'foreign' or 'foreigner' was Waelisc and a 'foreign(er's) land' was called Wēalas. The modern English forms of these words with respect to the modern country are Welsh (the people) and Wales (the land), respectively.

Historically in Britain the words were not restricted to modern Wales or to the Welsh but were used indiscriminately to refer to anything that the Anglo-Saxons associated with Celtic Britons, including other foreign lands (e.g., Cornwall), places once associated with Celtic Britons (e.g., Walworth in County Durham and Walton in West Yorkshire),[6] the surnames of people (e.g., Walsh and Wallace) and various other things that were once new and foreign to the Anglo-Saxons (e.g., the walnut). None of these historic usages is necessarily connected to Wales or the Welsh.

The Anglo-Saxon words are derived from the same Germanic root (singular Walh, plural Walha) that has provided modern names for Continental lands (e.g., Wallonia and Wallachia)[7] and peoples (e.g., the Vlachs via a borrowing into Old Church Slavonic),[8][9][10] none of which has any connection to Wales or the Welsh.

Etymology of Cymru
Moliant Cadwallon

The modern Welsh name for themselves is Cymry, and Cymru is Welsh for "Land of the Cymry". The etymological origin of Cymry is from the Brythonic word combrogi, meaning "fellow-countrymen".[11] The use of the word Cymry as a self-designation derives from the post-Roman Era relationship of the Welsh with the Brythonic-speaking peoples of northern England and southern Scotland, the peoples of Yr Hen Ogledd (English: The Old North). In its original use, it amounted to a self-perception that the Welsh and the "Men of the North" were one people, exclusive of all others.[12] In particular, the term was not applied to the Cornish or the Breton peoples, who are of similar heritage, culture, and language to both the Welsh and the Men of the North. The word came into use as a self-description probably before the 7th century.[13] It is attested in a praise poem to Cadwallon ap Cadfan (Moliant Cadwallon, by Afan Ferddig) c. 633.[14] In Welsh literature, the word Cymry was used throughout the Middle Ages to describe the Welsh, though the older, more generic term Brythoniaid continued to be used to describe any of the Britonnic peoples (including the Welsh) and was the more common literary term until c. 1100. Thereafter Cymry prevailed as a reference to the Welsh. Until c. 1560 Cymry was used indiscriminately to mean either the people (Cymry) or their homeland (Cymru).[11]

The Latinised form of the name is Cambria. Outside of Wales this form survives as the name of Cumbria in North West England, which was once a part of Yr Hen Ogledd. This form also appears at times in literary references, perhaps most notably in the pseudohistorical Historia Regum Britanniae of Geoffrey of Monmouth, where the character of Camber is described as the eponymous King of Cymru.


HOPE THIS HELPS

Brittany/breton were the french celts. So I'm assuming the name Britain come from both the Roman 'Britannia', and the whatever else 'Breton'.

The Irish were Scottish Celts that migrated back and forth between Ireland and Scotland, depending on how hospitable the environ.

Seems we need to take our country back as well according to my invstigation

The 400 years following the collapse of Roman rule is the most difficult to interpret in the history of Wales.[35] After the Roman departure from Britain in 410, much of the lowlands of Britain to the east and south-east were overrun by various Germanic tribes.[42] However by 500 AD, the land that would become Wales had divided into number of kingdoms free from Anglo-Saxon rule.[35] The kingdoms of Gwynedd, Powys, Dyfed and Seisyllg, Morgannwg and Gwent emerged as independent Welsh successor states.[35] Archaeological evidence, in the Low Countries and what was to become England, shows early Anglo-Saxon migration to Great Britain reversed between 500 to 550, which concurs with Frankish chronicles.[43] John Davies notes this as consistent with the British victory at Badon Hill, attributed to Arthur by Nennius.[43] This tenacious survival by the Romano-Britons and their descendants in the western kingdoms was to become the foundation of what we now know as Wales. With the loss of the lowlands, England's kingdoms of Mercia and Northumbria, and later Wessex, wrestled with Powys, Gwent and Gwynedd to define the frontier between the two peoples.

Having lost much of what is now the West Midlands to Mercia in the 6th and early 7th centuries, a resurgent late-seventh-century Powys checked Mercian advancement. Aethelbald of Mercia, looking to defend recently acquired lands, had built Wat's Dyke. According to John Davies, this endeavour may have been with Powys king Elisedd ap Gwylog's own agreement, however, for this boundary, extending north from the valley of the River Severn to the Dee estuary, gave Oswestry to Powys.[44] Another theory, after carbon-dating placed the dyke's existence 300 years earlier, is that it may have been built by the post-Roman rulers of Wroxeter.[45] King Offa of Mercia seems to have continued this consultative initiative when he created a larger earthwork, now known as Offa's Dyke (Clawdd Offa). Davies wrote of Cyril Fox's study of Offa's Dyke: "In the planning of it, there was a degree of consultation with the kings of Powys and Gwent. On the Long Mountain near Trelystan, the dyke veers to the east, leaving the fertile slopes in the hands of the Welsh; near Rhiwabon, it was designed to ensure that Cadell ap Brochwel retained possession of the Fortress of Penygadden." And, for Gwent, Offa had the dyke built "on the eastern crest of the gorge, clearly with the intention of recognizing that the River Wye and its traffic belonged to the kingdom of Gwent."[44] However, Fox's interpretations of both the length and purpose of the Dyke have been questioned by more recent research.[46] Offa's Dyke largely remained the frontier between the Welsh and English, though the Welsh would recover by the 12th century the area between the Dee (Afon Dyfrdwy), and the Conwy known then as Y Berfeddwlad. By the eighth century, the eastern borders with the Anglo-Saxons had broadly been set.

In 853 the Vikings raided Anglesey, but in 856 Rhodri Mawr defeated and killed their leader, Gorm.[47] The Britons of Wales later made their peace with the Vikings and Anarawd ap Rhodri allied with the Norsemen occupying Northumbria to conquer the north.[48] This alliance later broke down and Anarawd came to an agreement with Alfred, king of Wessex, with whom he fought against the west Welsh. According to Annales Cambriae, in 894, "Anarawd came with the Angles and laid waste Ceredigion and Ystrad Tywi."[49]

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Seems we need to take our country back as well according to my invstigation

The 400 years following the collapse of Roman rule is the most difficult to interpret in the history of Wales.[35] After the Roman departure from Britain in 410, much of the lowlands of Britain to the east and south-east were overrun by various Germanic tribes.[42] However by 500 AD, the land that would become Wales had divided into number of kingdoms free from Anglo-Saxon rule.[35] The kingdoms of Gwynedd, Powys, Dyfed and Seisyllg, Morgannwg and Gwent emerged as independent Welsh successor states.[35] Archaeological evidence, in the Low Countries and what was to become England, shows early Anglo-Saxon migration to Great Britain reversed between 500 to 550, which concurs with Frankish chronicles.[43] John Davies notes this as consistent with the British victory at Badon Hill, attributed to Arthur by Nennius.[43] This tenacious survival by the Romano-Britons and their descendants in the western kingdoms was to become the foundation of what we now know as Wales. With the loss of the lowlands, England's kingdoms of Mercia and Northumbria, and later Wessex, wrestled with Powys, Gwent and Gwynedd to define the frontier between the two peoples.

Having lost much of what is now the West Midlands to Mercia in the 6th and early 7th centuries, a resurgent late-seventh-century Powys checked Mercian advancement. Aethelbald of Mercia, looking to defend recently acquired lands, had built Wat's Dyke. According to John Davies, this endeavour may have been with Powys king Elisedd ap Gwylog's own agreement, however, for this boundary, extending north from the valley of the River Severn to the Dee estuary, gave Oswestry to Powys.[44] Another theory, after carbon-dating placed the dyke's existence 300 years earlier, is that it may have been built by the post-Roman rulers of Wroxeter.[45] King Offa of Mercia seems to have continued this consultative initiative when he created a larger earthwork, now known as Offa's Dyke (Clawdd Offa). Davies wrote of Cyril Fox's study of Offa's Dyke: "In the planning of it, there was a degree of consultation with the kings of Powys and Gwent. On the Long Mountain near Trelystan, the dyke veers to the east, leaving the fertile slopes in the hands of the Welsh; near Rhiwabon, it was designed to ensure that Cadell ap Brochwel retained possession of the Fortress of Penygadden." And, for Gwent, Offa had the dyke built "on the eastern crest of the gorge, clearly with the intention of recognizing that the River Wye and its traffic belonged to the kingdom of Gwent."[44] However, Fox's interpretations of both the length and purpose of the Dyke have been questioned by more recent research.[46] Offa's Dyke largely remained the frontier between the Welsh and English, though the Welsh would recover by the 12th century the area between the Dee (Afon Dyfrdwy), and the Conwy known then as Y Berfeddwlad. By the eighth century, the eastern borders with the Anglo-Saxons had broadly been set.

In 853 the Vikings raided Anglesey, but in 856 Rhodri Mawr defeated and killed their leader, Gorm.[47] The Britons of Wales later made their peace with the Vikings and Anarawd ap Rhodri allied with the Norsemen occupying Northumbria to conquer the north.[48] This alliance later broke down and Anarawd came to an agreement with Alfred, king of Wessex, with whom he fought against the west Welsh. According to Annales Cambriae, in 894, "Anarawd came with the Angles and laid waste Ceredigion and Ystrad Tywi."[49]

Seems we need to take our country back as well according to my invstigation

The 400 years following the collapse of Roman rule is the most difficult to interpret in the history of Wales.[35] After the Roman departure from Britain in 410, much of the lowlands of Britain to the east and south-east were overrun by various Germanic tribes.[42] However by 500 AD, the land that would become Wales had divided into number of kingdoms free from Anglo-Saxon rule.[35] The kingdoms of Gwynedd, Powys, Dyfed and Seisyllg, Morgannwg and Gwent emerged as independent Welsh successor states.[35] Archaeological evidence, in the Low Countries and what was to become England, shows early Anglo-Saxon migration to Great Britain reversed between 500 to 550, which concurs with Frankish chronicles.[43] John Davies notes this as consistent with the British victory at Badon Hill, attributed to Arthur by Nennius.[43] This tenacious survival by the Romano-Britons and their descendants in the western kingdoms was to become the foundation of what we now know as Wales. With the loss of the lowlands, England's kingdoms of Mercia and Northumbria, and later Wessex, wrestled with Powys, Gwent and Gwynedd to define the frontier between the two peoples.

Having lost much of what is now the West Midlands to Mercia in the 6th and early 7th centuries, a resurgent late-seventh-century Powys checked Mercian advancement. Aethelbald of Mercia, looking to defend recently acquired lands, had built Wat's Dyke. According to John Davies, this endeavour may have been with Powys king Elisedd ap Gwylog's own agreement, however, for this boundary, extending north from the valley of the River Severn to the Dee estuary, gave Oswestry to Powys.[44] Another theory, after carbon-dating placed the dyke's existence 300 years earlier, is that it may have been built by the post-Roman rulers of Wroxeter.[45] King Offa of Mercia seems to have continued this consultative initiative when he created a larger earthwork, now known as Offa's Dyke (Clawdd Offa). Davies wrote of Cyril Fox's study of Offa's Dyke: "In the planning of it, there was a degree of consultation with the kings of Powys and Gwent. On the Long Mountain near Trelystan, the dyke veers to the east, leaving the fertile slopes in the hands of the Welsh; near Rhiwabon, it was designed to ensure that Cadell ap Brochwel retained possession of the Fortress of Penygadden." And, for Gwent, Offa had the dyke built "on the eastern crest of the gorge, clearly with the intention of recognizing that the River Wye and its traffic belonged to the kingdom of Gwent."[44] However, Fox's interpretations of both the length and purpose of the Dyke have been questioned by more recent research.[46] Offa's Dyke largely remained the frontier between the Welsh and English, though the Welsh would recover by the 12th century the area between the Dee (Afon Dyfrdwy), and the Conwy known then as Y Berfeddwlad. By the eighth century, the eastern borders with the Anglo-Saxons had broadly been set.

In 853 the Vikings raided Anglesey, but in 856 Rhodri Mawr defeated and killed their leader, Gorm.[47] The Britons of Wales later made their peace with the Vikings and Anarawd ap Rhodri allied with the Norsemen occupying Northumbria to conquer the north.[48] This alliance later broke down and Anarawd came to an agreement with Alfred, king of Wessex, with whom he fought against the west Welsh. According to Annales Cambriae, in 894, "Anarawd came with the Angles and laid waste Ceredigion and Ystrad Tywi."[49]

re-posted this under new heading should we take our land back from the english ? Interesting views

re-posted this under new heading should we take our land back from the english ? Interesting views

Found it

Also, notice in AD.600 What Wales falls into, ''Native Britons''