" QPR - This mornings news Report... "

We have our own problems with this loan to Ray Ransons Company and I wouldn't be at all surprised if at sometime in the future we are charged under these 3rd Party Rules. The FA have a rule directly drawn from FIFA statutes regarding this loan arrangements;

FA Third Party Ownership Regulations
8 A Club is not permitted to enter into borrowing or any other form of financing or investment that is secured against, or has a return directly linked to, the value or future value of any Player or Players employed by a Club, unless The Association has approved the arrangement in accordance with
Regulation A.2 above .

So unless this loan has been approved by the Association we appear to be in breach of regulations and IF we are and IF we are charged we could also suffer a points deduction. I wonder if Messrs Jenkins, Whiteley and Borley have been called to Malaysia to discuss our situation.

Wrong.

The FA ( we're under the FAW ) rules applied to the Premier League. Those were adopted by the Football League a few months ago.

The loan occured before that - therefore, given the rule not applied retrospectively, we've no case to answer.

We have our own problems with this loan to Ray Ransons Company and I wouldn't be at all surprised if at sometime in the future we are charged under these 3rd Party Rules. The FA have a rule directly drawn from FIFA statutes regarding this loan arrangements;

FA Third Party Ownership Regulations
8 A Club is not permitted to enter into borrowing or any other form of financing or investment that is secured against, or has a return directly linked to, the value or future value of any Player or Players employed by a Club, unless The Association has approved the arrangement in accordance with
Regulation A.2 above .

So unless this loan has been approved by the Association we appear to be in breach of regulations and IF we are and IF we are charged we could also suffer a points deduction. I wonder if Messrs Jenkins, Whiteley and Borley have been called to Malaysia to discuss our situation.

Wrong.

The FA ( we're under the FAW ) rules applied to the Premier League. Those were adopted by the Football League a few months ago.

The loan occured before that - therefore, given the rule not applied retrospectively, we've no case to answer.

Wrong

If you have read and understood what I have said ALL rules relating to 3rd Party Interest in players are drawn directly from FIFA statutes and this Statute was introduced in August 2009. As a Member Association of FIFA the FAW will be required to act should the Football League decide that our club is in breach of these regulations.

Of course non of that will matter IF the club has the approval of the FAW / FA / FIFA for this loan.

Might be a totally different scenario, but does anyone remember what happened at Swindon, back in the nineties, when they were denied a place in the Prem.

We have our own problems with this loan to Ray Ransons Company and I wouldn't be at all surprised if at sometime in the future we are charged under these 3rd Party Rules. The FA have a rule directly drawn from FIFA statutes regarding this loan arrangements;

FA Third Party Ownership Regulations
8 A Club is not permitted to enter into borrowing or any other form of financing or investment that is secured against, or has a return directly linked to, the value or future value of any Player or Players employed by a Club, unless The Association has approved the arrangement in accordance with
Regulation A.2 above .

So unless this loan has been approved by the Association we appear to be in breach of regulations and IF we are and IF we are charged we could also suffer a points deduction. I wonder if Messrs Jenkins, Whiteley and Borley have been called to Malaysia to discuss our situation.

Wrong.

The FA ( we're under the FAW ) rules applied to the Premier League. Those were adopted by the Football League a few months ago.

The loan occured before that - therefore, given the rule not applied retrospectively, we've no case to answer.

Wrong

If you have read and understood what I have said ALL rules relating to 3rd Party Interest in players are drawn directly from FIFA statutes and this Statute was introduced in August 2009. As a Member Association of FIFA the FAW will be required to act should the Football League decide that our club is in breach of these regulations.

Of course non of that will matter IF the club has the approval of the FAW / FA / FIFA for this loan.

Individual leagues / associations needed to enact those statutes within their own rules.

Prem League did, Football League only did recently.

Hence the loan was LEGAL at the time it was created, under Football league regulations.

It's well and good citing the rule, which is in place now - can you provide the rule as it was enacted in the FL regulations at the time the loan was drawn?

The omly issue being investigated is Ranson's influence - because the wording of one of the clauses could be read as meaning the player registrations could be controlled by Ranson - the rest of the document clearly refers to the assets involved being the transfer revenue.

It's nowhere near comparable to the QPR issues.

The FA were fully aware of what happened back in august when they signed the player, but they couldn't act until the regulations were put into effect for the English league system. Which is why this has all blown up recently as they now have their powers to investigate this case, so, does it really matter WHEN qpr signed their player, or when Cardiff loaned from a 3rd party because the current application of the introduced regulations are now allowing them to investigate backdated events?

Saying that though, can we please refrain from drifting from the actual topic thread and stay clear of making our club any more vulnerable than it already is, thanks.

This story has the potential to go on all summer. If they are docked points and don't go up they will appeal as they will have lost out on millions. There's also the possibility of City, Norwich etc bringing a case if QPR go up and their points deduction is viewed as being too lenient!

The FA were fully aware of what happened back in august when they signed the player, but they couldn't act until the regulations were put into effect for the English league system. Which is why this has all blown up recently as they now have their powers to investigate this case, so, does it really matter WHEN qpr signed their player, or when Cardiff loaned from a 3rd party because the current application of the introduced regulations are now allowing them to investigate backdated events?

Saying that though, can we please refrain from drifting from the actual topic thread and stay clear of making our club any more vulnerable than it already is, thanks.

QPR were informed of the issue, asked to correct it. They didn't, seemingly passing false information over. Given Paladini's interesting history, hardly a shock there. As members of the FA, there's the issue of whether FA regs were broken superceded the fact those regs, at that time, didn't apply to the FL. Regardless, throwing our loan into the equation is nothing more than scaremongering.

Making us more vulnerable? I'm sure the FA and FL scan this board regularly... although of course any action would be taken by the FAW. Who we clearly have in our pocket according to the Jacks...

Don't start thinking we could benefit from this. Yes we have a better chance of second with QPR out of the way. HOWEVER, the points deduction will not take them totally out of the running for promotion.

IF QPR get a deduction that leaves them finishing in the play offs you then end up with a team who are heads and shoulders above everyone else. This makes the play offs weighted in their favour.

It's like a club getting a ten point deduction and putting them in a relegation dog fight, they STILL have the advantage of a mid table squad AND a better goal difference.

I hope for a fine and leave them as Champions. All the others are then similar and can fight it out fairly.

Either way, lets keep the thread focused on the QPR Situation.

Some interested discussions now on talk sport.

Individual leagues / associations needed to enact those statutes within their own rules.

Prem League did, Football League only did recently.

Hence the loan was LEGAL at the time it was created, under Football league regulations.

It's well and good citing the rule, which is in place now - can you provide the rule as it was enacted in the FL regulations at the time the loan was drawn?

The omly issue being investigated is Ranson's influence - because the wording of one of the clauses could be read as meaning the player registrations could be controlled by Ranson - the rest of the document clearly refers to the assets involved being the transfer revenue.

It's nowhere near comparable to the QPR issues.

I agree any possible action against our club would be small in comparison with QPR who appear to have broken rules left, right and centre. Also in reality any possible action, if any, against the Bluebirds will be in the future as this QPR situation started back in October last year so these investigations take time. Also any punishment against the Bluebirds would be financial only as it does not effect players registrations.

But you are wrong when you say Associations or Leagues need to enact FIFA Statutes into their rules to take action, of course it is better if they are incorporated but the PL took action against West Ham Utd (£5.5m fine) using their rule U18 which related only to 3rd party influence. This was in 2007 and although the £5.5m fine was thought to be an example to other clubs the subsequent legal actions led to a change in the rules to so by 2009 responsibility moved directly to National Association.

These rule changes require NA to consider League rules in any sanctions taken against clubs found guilty, QPR face the reak prospect of point deductions as the FA will I believe look to save itself from the situation of a West Ham / Sheffield Utd club against club legal battle.

The point of my original post was that I think QPR cannot and will not escape without a points deduction and a big, big fine. We should know the outcome before the end of the season and I just hope IF we are charged the authorities don't go overboard just because the English press start a witch hunt against our club.

That wouldn't be fair and that is the point I was trying to make.

This will be dealt with very quickly, well before end of season.....its already been investigated and QPR have denied it......if found guilty the sanctions will be even greater than if they did a west ham and admitted it.....its 7 charges and i think they are well up shit creek, makes sense why old bernie wanted to sell up few months back.....he knew it was coming!

40.2 Any club playing an ineligible player in a League match may have 3 points deducted from it's score and/or be liable for any other penalty as the board decide.

Does this mean 3 points per game they played/been included in the squad?

I agree any possible action against our club would be small in comparison with QPR who appear to have broken rules left, right and centre. Also in reality any possible action, if any, against the Bluebirds will be in the future as this QPR situation started back in October last year so these investigations take time. Also any punishment against the Bluebirds would be financial only as it does not effect players registrations.

But you are wrong when you say Associations or Leagues need to enact FIFA Statutes into their rules to take action, of course it is better if they are incorporated but the PL took action against West Ham Utd (£5.5m fine) using their rule U18 which related only to 3rd party influence. This was in 2007 and although the £5.5m fine was thought to be an example to other clubs the subsequent legal actions led to a change in the rules to so by 2009 responsibility moved directly to National Association.

These rule changes require NA to consider League rules in any sanctions taken against clubs found guilty, QPR face the reak prospect of point deductions as the FA will I believe look to save itself from the situation of a West Ham / Sheffield Utd club against club legal battle.

The point of my original post was that I think QPR cannot and will not escape without a points deduction and a big, big fine. We should know the outcome before the end of the season and I just hope IF we are charged the authorities don't go overboard just because the English press start a witch hunt against our club.

That wouldn't be fair and that is the point I was trying to make.

If the FIFA statutes aren't incorporated into the league regulations, then it opens up a wide door to a legal challenge. The U18 rule wouldn't necessarily apply to the loan deal at the time - there's no influence of Ray Ranson over the club or more importantly player registrations, which the Guardian tried to make as the story.

QPR will almost certainly get a big points deduction - Luton example was 10 points, this seems far worse looking at the charges. The fact one of the charges is "sought to use an unauthorised agent" indicates that the intent was always there from QPR to break the rules, not the case of an agent inserting himself into the process, which QPR then grugingly went along with.

Utterly agree FA wll look to act decisively after the West Ham debacle.

The media will always look to start a witch hunt, sure. The problem being the only alleged evidence is that of the Guardian article, which was flawed. Under league regulations, which we acted under at that time, the loan deal appears to be perfectly fine - couldn't do it now, but fine at the time. Based on that, I don't see charges being levied against us. Ranson would be investigated, sure, but materially he had zero influence in the day to day running or player registrations - namely acting almost as an uber secured creditor - "don't use money owed to us for other things without permission".

And again, FA can't charge us - only the FAW. Which means almost certainly nothing would happen given a) it's business using legalese which always confuses the senile old dodderers in the FAw and b) as the Jacks always cry, we have them in our pocket.

That's why I'm convinced QPR will be massively hit, we won't be charged. I agree in the unlikely event we were ever charged and found guilty, it would be a fine. What I'd say, even though I hate sailing it, is Ridsdale certainly had a different business view, but doesn't appear, at whatever club, to have infringed league regulations in doing so. Sailed close to the wind, sure...

The QPR situation seems the tip of the iceberg - Briatore used to be involved, a guy who was involved in a deliberate crash in Forumal One to aid Alonso in a race, being banned from that sport for life. Paladini has been dodgy - used to be an agent. From reading QPR mb's, the woman who used to handle contracts, deals, doing a good thorough job, was replaced in that role by Paladini. hell, Gianni Paladini was involved in a blackmail case, guys allegedly at gunpoint forcing him to sign a resignation letter - all suspects found not guilty. if these charges are proven, it's not outside the boundaries that everything QPR have done over the last 5-10 years could be then looked back at.

40.2 Any club playing an ineligible player in a League match may have 3 points deducted from it's score and/or be liable for any other penalty as the board decide.

Does this mean 3 points per game they played/been included in the squad?

From memory, refers to being named in the match day squad.

From memory, refers to being named in the match day squad.

So it would be the same deduction no matter how many times they were selected in the match day squad? Or 3 points for every time they selected him?

I find it hard to believe that it can be sorted by the end of the season.

If this is true they are in deep trouble

The Club and Club Official Gianni Paladini are also charged in respect of allegedly false information contained in documents submitted to The FA in relation to the same player signing an extension to his playing contract with the Club in October 2010. These charges are brought under the Players Agents Regulations, C2, and FA Rule E3."

West Ham pleaded guilty. It won't go down well at the FA that QPR are challenging the charges.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/footba ... rship.html

From memory, refers to being named in the match day squad.

So it would be the same deduction no matter how many times they were selected in the match day squad? Or 3 points for every time they selected him?

Again, from memory, happy to be corrected, it would be three points for each match named in the match day squad during the period his registration deemed to have been ineligible. From what I've read, that would apply to 6 matches, so 18 points for that.

FL may, on top of that, add more points if any other offences proven. Luton using unauthorised agent was a 10 point ban. Equally, look at Swindon for their financial irregularities a while ago - denied promotion to Prem, also demoted a division.

From what I've read, the main charges leading to heavy penalties would be seeking to use an unauthorised agent - again, if proven, it would be clear evidence of deliberately seeking to circumvent the regulations - and filing false information to the league. whilst the latter could be plausibly explained as an "honest mistake", in combination with the other charges, it would be a leap of faith to give QPR the benefit of the doubt.

The fact QPR gave this out as part of their statement ""QPR and Mr Paladini are confident that there has been no deliberate wrongdoing involved."" indicates what their defence will be - rules may have been broken, but they didn''t do it deliberately... which isn't going to fly.

40.2 Any club playing an ineligible player in a League match may have 3 points deducted from it's score and/or be liable for any other penalty as the board decide.

Does this mean 3 points per game they played/been included in the squad?

It should be per game but the rule only say MAY be deducted and not WILL be deducted but I really believe when QPR are found guilty they will get hit with a points deduction and no mamby pamby 1 or 2 points but a shedload.

I find it hard to believe that it can be sorted by the end of the season.

QPR have 10 days to either accept the charges or ask for a hearing to put their case, the FA normally hear these cases within 3 weeks of the request for a hearing so it can be done within this season. No doubt about that.

However if QPR are found guilty they will have the right of appeal and that process could take it into May.

In a nutshell QPR are up shit creek, without a paddle and a hole in the boat

this is a good read....

http://www.fansnetwork.co.uk/football/q ... this_week_

I'm actually staggered; Paladini makes Ridsdale look like a pillar of the community!

I Would hate to Win promotion because of another Clubs defaults.

I am with you on this, its not the way I would want promotion, BUT I HAVE HAD ENOUGH OF NOT SEEING MY BELOVED BLUEBIRDS NOT BATTLING IT OUT WITH THE BIG BOYS. WAITED YEARS TO GET THERE AND MY PATIENCE IS RUNNING OUT..........

WE HAVE TO DO IT IT OUR SELVES, WE HAVE THE TEAM and THE FANS

I Would hate to Win promotion because of another Clubs defaults.

I am with you on this, its not the way I would want promotion, BUT I HAVE HAD ENOUGH OF NOT SEEING MY BELOVED BLUEBIRDS NOT BATTLING IT OUT WITH THE BIG BOYS. WAITED YEARS TO GET THERE AND MY PATIENCE IS RUNNING OUT..........

WE HAVE TO DO IT IT OUR SELVES, WE HAVE THE TEAM and THE FANS

but it would be a massive bost for us annis

maybe aswell the luck that we need

I Would hate to Win promotion because of another Clubs defaults.

I am with you on this, its not the way I would want promotion, BUT I HAVE HAD ENOUGH OF NOT SEEING MY BELOVED BLUEBIRDS NOT BATTLING IT OUT WITH THE BIG BOYS. WAITED YEARS TO GET THERE AND MY PATIENCE IS RUNNING OUT..........

WE HAVE TO DO IT IT OUR SELVES, WE HAVE THE TEAM and THE FANS

Its a shame neither are very good at the moment

I would rather we went up on merit but ill take going up anyway we can

I Would hate to Win promotion because of another Clubs defaults.

I am with you on this, its not the way I would want promotion, BUT I HAVE HAD ENOUGH OF NOT SEEING MY BELOVED BLUEBIRDS NOT BATTLING IT OUT WITH THE BIG BOYS. WAITED YEARS TO GET THERE AND MY PATIENCE IS RUNNING OUT..........

WE HAVE TO DO IT IT OUR SELVES, WE HAVE THE TEAM and THE FANS

I can see both sides here - I'd obviously want us to get up without need of this scenario - however, if we were to fail on the auto's and be in 3rd place - but this gave us the gift of 2nd place, then surely we'd have to be pleased to take it???

We have no guarantee whatsoever of winning the play-offs, so a bird in the hand etc...

I can fully see the negatives, that would potentially be thrown at us for years to come - but if those years saw us established as a Premiership team, then surely it would be a price worth paying.

On a slightly different note (and sorry if this has been raised elsewhere), but if points were deducted, which meant QPR went into the play-offs, but were in the process of appealing teh decisioon - how could the play-offs proceed? The 2nd placed team would presumably be said to have been promoted and not have to play in the play-offs, but if QPR's appeal was succesful, then how woudl that work???

I guess the bottom line is that the FA would do everything within their power to avoid that scenario occuring - but if its down to the Courts, then there are procedures they have to implement correctly, so the only way that the FA could avoid it would be by not deducting points in the first place! But even that could lead to problems with the 3rd placed team then challenging the decision not to deduct the points, if they had lost in the play-offs!

You could see a lot of nightmarish legal wrangles ahead!

I would hate the rest of the Country make out that we did not go up on our own merit.

I would hate the rest of the Country make out that we did not go up on our own merit.

That's the thing that would get me too, although I probably would still taking I've been Through enough already