thread regarding qpr off jacks board

5wan5 Post subject: Re: QPR could wreck the play offs Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 11:15 pm



Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2008 6:26 pm
Posts: 184
It seems to me that the whole QPR points deduction scenario is one coloured by uncertainty about what the implications would if a points deduction were imposed and to that end, depending on which camp you're in, whether you're an optimist or pessimist, or whether you are prone to clutching at straws will determine how you view the scenario.

Most people, I think sensibly, have adopted the bury the head in the sand philosophy and will wait and see with everyone committing to "getting as many points as we can".

Before our game with QPR on Saturday the BBC were reporting that they "understood" that QPR will ultimately be fined and not face a points deduction, and indeed the QPR spin machine has been engaging in a full on assault since the charges were brought to push the message that they would not be getting a points deduction.

I must confess to have only taking a passing interest in the QPR story when it broke in March, but as we reach the climax of the season my interest was piqued and I have spent several hours researching the allegations, reading the FA website, reading news reports and reading blog reports of several fan websites including our own, QPR's and Crystal Palace's who's fans have taken great interest in the plight of their local rivals, particularly after their own points deduction last season.

My conclusions should give QPR fans real concern and should only lead to one possible outcome, and are as follows:

1. The charges faced by QPR are extremely serious and are fundamentally two-fold. That they broke third party player ownership rules that were clearly established and made clear to all clubs after the Tevez affair, and that (in my view more seriously) they then attempted to cover up this breach in October 2010 by submitting falsified documents to the FA.
2. Alot of people compare the QPR situation to West Ham's with Tevez, however when charged West Ham held their hands up immediately and many feel this helped them avoid a points deduction, plus there was never any real suggestion of attempted fraud, ultimately it was found that they had broken the rules but, lets say, they had perhaps been naive of the rules. QPR on the other hand have refuted the claims the FA have brought (which as we have seen with Rooney recently doesn't go down well with the FA), and we have the added issue of an attempted fraud.
3. This fraud element moves this (in my view) into a very different scenario and one which people haven't suggested as a comparison, but here goes 1990 Swindon Town. If you're not old enough to remember Swindon won promotion from what became the Championship to what would become the Premier League via the play-offs but were found guilty of making illegal payments to players and a few weeks later were relegated two divisions by the FA this was later reduced to a one division relegation and they found themselves back in the Championship.
4. It is this precedent that I feel will mean that QPR will face a points deduction at least.
5. Many people have said that the FA have screwed up by delaying the decision until the last week of the season, I think this is entirely deliberate and is ultimately the right way to have handled this - consider the Swindon example from 1990. The charges against Swindon were identified well before the end of season playoffs but the FA sensibly allowed the season to run its course with all teams trying their best. Some might say it was cruel to Swindon fans to let them experience promotion however had they lost the playoffs presumably they would have been relegated to what became League One, instead of back to the Championship i.e the faced a one division relegation as their penalty regardless of how they finished up. I think the FA are using this as a precedent, to give no indication of a points deduction so that all teams play to their potential without bringing the integrity of this Championship season into question. QPR may need to gain promotion to the Premier League in order that they are relegated back to the Championship and not League One as with the Swindon case.
6. Consider if QPR had been given a 10 point, 30 point or even a relegation as a punishment announced in March. How would this have affected their own players approach to remaining matches and what impact would that have had on the points earned by the teams they later played who could have had an unfair advantage playing against a team that had psychologically imploded. Far more sensible to delay any announcement so that everyone assumes no points will be deducted, so the chasing pack give it their all and assume that 3rd place misses auto-promotion, and 7th place misses the play-offs. This would ensure that no one can have any complaints of unfair advantage when a decision is made.
7. Also if a relegation is the penalty imposed then if this had been announced in March it would have meant QPR would have had to gain promotion to the Premier League to ensure they stayed in the Championship. This would clearly be an intolerable position to put them in at that time or indeed for the other clubs so the FA, by delaying the decision, have ensured the integrity of the season, and also giving a massive hidden clue that a points deduction at least is guaranteed. Consider the alternative, if it was just a fine then impose it now, why wait?
8. Points deductions are imposed for far less serious offences. A club going into administration, which mostly happens due to mismanagement and not fraud guarantees a 10 point deduction. Luton Town were deducted 10 points for illegal agent payments and a further 20 points for issues around their administration status. This effectively relegated them out of the Football League! QPR should be looking at a minimum 10 point penalty plus an additional penalty for attempting to deceive the FA. The treatment of Luton Town demonstrates that the FA will impose the rules ruthlessly regardless of the implications to the punished club. Hereford and Torquay were deducted 3 points and 1 point respectively for each fielding an illegible player in their match on 1st February. This was the day after the transfer window closed and basically resulted from clerical errors in the form filling process of players signed in the last few hours of the transfer window. So a c**k up, not fraud, but resulted in points being docked. If QPR don't get a points deduction for what they have done then it will fly in the face of the precedent set down to all other clubs.
9. In summary then I believe QPR will face something like a 30 point penalty deduction, as that is the scale of the seriousness of the offences, which assuming they fill one of the top two slots will equate to a relegation. All this talk of legal cases are a smoke screen. The FA have QPR bang to rights and determining the penalty is all that needs to be agreed. They are going to take a very dim view of the attempt to deceive them, as they did with Luton Town.
10. A 30 point deduction would place QPR out of even the play off mix, allowing for the playoffs to proceed unhindered.


decent post

5wan5 Post subject: Re: QPR could wreck the play offs Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 11:15 pm



Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2008 6:26 pm
Posts: 184
It seems to me that the whole QPR points deduction scenario is one coloured by uncertainty about what the implications would if a points deduction were imposed and to that end, depending on which camp you're in, whether you're an optimist or pessimist, or whether you are prone to clutching at straws will determine how you view the scenario.

Most people, I think sensibly, have adopted the bury the head in the sand philosophy and will wait and see with everyone committing to "getting as many points as we can".

Before our game with QPR on Saturday the BBC were reporting that they "understood" that QPR will ultimately be fined and not face a points deduction, and indeed the QPR spin machine has been engaging in a full on assault since the charges were brought to push the message that they would not be getting a points deduction.

I must confess to have only taking a passing interest in the QPR story when it broke in March, but as we reach the climax of the season my interest was piqued and I have spent several hours researching the allegations, reading the FA website, reading news reports and reading blog reports of several fan websites including our own, QPR's and Crystal Palace's who's fans have taken great interest in the plight of their local rivals, particularly after their own points deduction last season.

My conclusions should give QPR fans real concern and should only lead to one possible outcome, and are as follows:

1. The charges faced by QPR are extremely serious and are fundamentally two-fold. That they broke third party player ownership rules that were clearly established and made clear to all clubs after the Tevez affair, and that (in my view more seriously) they then attempted to cover up this breach in October 2010 by submitting falsified documents to the FA.
2. Alot of people compare the QPR situation to West Ham's with Tevez, however when charged West Ham held their hands up immediately and many feel this helped them avoid a points deduction, plus there was never any real suggestion of attempted fraud, ultimately it was found that they had broken the rules but, lets say, they had perhaps been naive of the rules. QPR on the other hand have refuted the claims the FA have brought (which as we have seen with Rooney recently doesn't go down well with the FA), and we have the added issue of an attempted fraud.
3. This fraud element moves this (in my view) into a very different scenario and one which people haven't suggested as a comparison, but here goes 1990 Swindon Town. If you're not old enough to remember Swindon won promotion from what became the Championship to what would become the Premier League via the play-offs but were found guilty of making illegal payments to players and a few weeks later were relegated two divisions by the FA this was later reduced to a one division relegation and they found themselves back in the Championship.
4. It is this precedent that I feel will mean that QPR will face a points deduction at least.
5. Many people have said that the FA have screwed up by delaying the decision until the last week of the season, I think this is entirely deliberate and is ultimately the right way to have handled this - consider the Swindon example from 1990. The charges against Swindon were identified well before the end of season playoffs but the FA sensibly allowed the season to run its course with all teams trying their best. Some might say it was cruel to Swindon fans to let them experience promotion however had they lost the playoffs presumably they would have been relegated to what became League One, instead of back to the Championship i.e the faced a one division relegation as their penalty regardless of how they finished up. I think the FA are using this as a precedent, to give no indication of a points deduction so that all teams play to their potential without bringing the integrity of this Championship season into question. QPR may need to gain promotion to the Premier League in order that they are relegated back to the Championship and not League One as with the Swindon case.
6. Consider if QPR had been given a 10 point, 30 point or even a relegation as a punishment announced in March. How would this have affected their own players approach to remaining matches and what impact would that have had on the points earned by the teams they later played who could have had an unfair advantage playing against a team that had psychologically imploded. Far more sensible to delay any announcement so that everyone assumes no points will be deducted, so the chasing pack give it their all and assume that 3rd place misses auto-promotion, and 7th place misses the play-offs. This would ensure that no one can have any complaints of unfair advantage when a decision is made.
7. Also if a relegation is the penalty imposed then if this had been announced in March it would have meant QPR would have had to gain promotion to the Premier League to ensure they stayed in the Championship. This would clearly be an intolerable position to put them in at that time or indeed for the other clubs so the FA, by delaying the decision, have ensured the integrity of the season, and also giving a massive hidden clue that a points deduction at least is guaranteed. Consider the alternative, if it was just a fine then impose it now, why wait?
8. Points deductions are imposed for far less serious offences. A club going into administration, which mostly happens due to mismanagement and not fraud guarantees a 10 point deduction. Luton Town were deducted 10 points for illegal agent payments and a further 20 points for issues around their administration status. This effectively relegated them out of the Football League! QPR should be looking at a minimum 10 point penalty plus an additional penalty for attempting to deceive the FA. The treatment of Luton Town demonstrates that the FA will impose the rules ruthlessly regardless of the implications to the punished club. Hereford and Torquay were deducted 3 points and 1 point respectively for each fielding an illegible player in their match on 1st February. This was the day after the transfer window closed and basically resulted from clerical errors in the form filling process of players signed in the last few hours of the transfer window. So a c**k up, not fraud, but resulted in points being docked. If QPR don't get a points deduction for what they have done then it will fly in the face of the precedent set down to all other clubs.
9. In summary then I believe QPR will face something like a 30 point penalty deduction, as that is the scale of the seriousness of the offences, which assuming they fill one of the top two slots will equate to a relegation. All this talk of legal cases are a smoke screen. The FA have QPR bang to rights and determining the penalty is all that needs to be agreed. They are going to take a very dim view of the attempt to deceive them, as they did with Luton Town.
10. A 30 point deduction would place QPR out of even the play off mix, allowing for the playoffs to proceed unhindered.


decent post

Stan's computer says no

5wan5 Post subject: Re: QPR could wreck the play offs Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 11:15 pm



Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2008 6:26 pm
Posts: 184
It seems to me that the whole QPR points deduction scenario is one coloured by uncertainty about what the implications would if a points deduction were imposed and to that end, depending on which camp you're in, whether you're an optimist or pessimist, or whether you are prone to clutching at straws will determine how you view the scenario.

Most people, I think sensibly, have adopted the bury the head in the sand philosophy and will wait and see with everyone committing to "getting as many points as we can".

Before our game with QPR on Saturday the BBC were reporting that they "understood" that QPR will ultimately be fined and not face a points deduction, and indeed the QPR spin machine has been engaging in a full on assault since the charges were brought to push the message that they would not be getting a points deduction.

I must confess to have only taking a passing interest in the QPR story when it broke in March, but as we reach the climax of the season my interest was piqued and I have spent several hours researching the allegations, reading the FA website, reading news reports and reading blog reports of several fan websites including our own, QPR's and Crystal Palace's who's fans have taken great interest in the plight of their local rivals, particularly after their own points deduction last season.

My conclusions should give QPR fans real concern and should only lead to one possible outcome, and are as follows:

1. The charges faced by QPR are extremely serious and are fundamentally two-fold. That they broke third party player ownership rules that were clearly established and made clear to all clubs after the Tevez affair, and that (in my view more seriously) they then attempted to cover up this breach in October 2010 by submitting falsified documents to the FA.
2. Alot of people compare the QPR situation to West Ham's with Tevez, however when charged West Ham held their hands up immediately and many feel this helped them avoid a points deduction, plus there was never any real suggestion of attempted fraud, ultimately it was found that they had broken the rules but, lets say, they had perhaps been naive of the rules. QPR on the other hand have refuted the claims the FA have brought (which as we have seen with Rooney recently doesn't go down well with the FA), and we have the added issue of an attempted fraud.
3. This fraud element moves this (in my view) into a very different scenario and one which people haven't suggested as a comparison, but here goes 1990 Swindon Town. If you're not old enough to remember Swindon won promotion from what became the Championship to what would become the Premier League via the play-offs but were found guilty of making illegal payments to players and a few weeks later were relegated two divisions by the FA this was later reduced to a one division relegation and they found themselves back in the Championship.
4. It is this precedent that I feel will mean that QPR will face a points deduction at least.
5. Many people have said that the FA have screwed up by delaying the decision until the last week of the season, I think this is entirely deliberate and is ultimately the right way to have handled this - consider the Swindon example from 1990. The charges against Swindon were identified well before the end of season playoffs but the FA sensibly allowed the season to run its course with all teams trying their best. Some might say it was cruel to Swindon fans to let them experience promotion however had they lost the playoffs presumably they would have been relegated to what became League One, instead of back to the Championship i.e the faced a one division relegation as their penalty regardless of how they finished up. I think the FA are using this as a precedent, to give no indication of a points deduction so that all teams play to their potential without bringing the integrity of this Championship season into question. QPR may need to gain promotion to the Premier League in order that they are relegated back to the Championship and not League One as with the Swindon case.
6. Consider if QPR had been given a 10 point, 30 point or even a relegation as a punishment announced in March. How would this have affected their own players approach to remaining matches and what impact would that have had on the points earned by the teams they later played who could have had an unfair advantage playing against a team that had psychologically imploded. Far more sensible to delay any announcement so that everyone assumes no points will be deducted, so the chasing pack give it their all and assume that 3rd place misses auto-promotion, and 7th place misses the play-offs. This would ensure that no one can have any complaints of unfair advantage when a decision is made.
7. Also if a relegation is the penalty imposed then if this had been announced in March it would have meant QPR would have had to gain promotion to the Premier League to ensure they stayed in the Championship. This would clearly be an intolerable position to put them in at that time or indeed for the other clubs so the FA, by delaying the decision, have ensured the integrity of the season, and also giving a massive hidden clue that a points deduction at least is guaranteed. Consider the alternative, if it was just a fine then impose it now, why wait?
8. Points deductions are imposed for far less serious offences. A club going into administration, which mostly happens due to mismanagement and not fraud guarantees a 10 point deduction. Luton Town were deducted 10 points for illegal agent payments and a further 20 points for issues around their administration status. This effectively relegated them out of the Football League! QPR should be looking at a minimum 10 point penalty plus an additional penalty for attempting to deceive the FA. The treatment of Luton Town demonstrates that the FA will impose the rules ruthlessly regardless of the implications to the punished club. Hereford and Torquay were deducted 3 points and 1 point respectively for each fielding an illegible player in their match on 1st February. This was the day after the transfer window closed and basically resulted from clerical errors in the form filling process of players signed in the last few hours of the transfer window. So a c**k up, not fraud, but resulted in points being docked. If QPR don't get a points deduction for what they have done then it will fly in the face of the precedent set down to all other clubs.
9. In summary then I believe QPR will face something like a 30 point penalty deduction, as that is the scale of the seriousness of the offences, which assuming they fill one of the top two slots will equate to a relegation. All this talk of legal cases are a smoke screen. The FA have QPR bang to rights and determining the penalty is all that needs to be agreed. They are going to take a very dim view of the attempt to deceive them, as they did with Luton Town.
10. A 30 point deduction would place QPR out of even the play off mix, allowing for the playoffs to proceed unhindered.


decent post

Stan's computer says no

stan will deny it even after they are found guilty and punished hopefully very badly
i hate qpr i rank them along side the other horrid lot called luton town.

An excellent post but the matter is not as easy it seems.

What if QPR win an appeal?

Lets assume that Cardiff and Norwich finished 1 and 2 with Reading winning the play offs.

QPR would be re instated at the expense of who? Norwich or Reading?

Would there be a Reading v Norwich additional play off at Wembley?

The thing is the only appeal qpr could lodge is with the FA who are hardly going to disrupt themselves again, they could appeal to the high court but they will just say what they said in the west ham appeal "nothing to do with us what punishment your governing body sees as fit"

that post makes a lot of sense.The FA got qpr by the bollocks so it seems

that post makes a lot of sense.The FA got qpr by the bollocks so it seems

hope so because if it was us could you imagine the outcry.

how come stan has not replied to this post ,in case he hasnt seen it could some one send him a copy ,as i would love to read his responce .sorry stan you have too much blind faith (you obviously will support your team right to the end) and i apploud you for that, but sometimes shit happens and i think you real supporters have been dumped on from a great height , i could say good luck at the hearing but i would not mean it if your club is guilty (and if they are luck will play no part in the outcome).

They copied this off CCMB

Stan's computer says no

how come stan has not replied to this post

Probably still reading it Try again in half an hour

Simple response

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

So many legal experts about the judicial system is sorted for the next 20 years!!!

Simple response

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

So many legal experts about the judicial system is sorted for the next 20 years!!!

Strange I thought you would have jumped on the example of a clerical error involving Torquay and Hereford where 3 + 1 points were deducted respectively.

I assume QPR's defence will be something similar, a clerical error?

Simple response

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

So many legal experts about the judicial system is sorted for the next 20 years!!!

QPR fans

the3monkeys.jpg

You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Simple response

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

So many legal experts about the judicial system is sorted for the next 20 years!!!

Your good self included it seems.

I don't know what the FA will decide, they're a law unto themselves - and despite what you've said about Colin being happy with what some barrister has told him, the truth is neither of them know either.

QPR have been the most consistent side all season and deserve to go up as champions.

But if they've broken the FA rules they'll be judged an dealt with accordingly.

We need to secure second spot whatever.

Got to number 2 and was falling asleep.

If I'm honest it's of absolutely no interest to me.

Written by a nobody.

Got to number 2 and was falling asleep.

If I'm honest it's of absolutely no interest to me.

Written by a nobody.

doesnt matter who its written by does it? its what it says that matters
and what it says may well happen, it may well not

all i know is that if it were Cardiff in this position, id be 100% worried at this possibility, yet youre not bothered at all which suggests you dont care as much as a real fan should...

i just think you should stop being so arrogant about this whole situation, until a decision is made, because it might come back to haunt you

Got to number 2 and was falling asleep.

If I'm honest it's of absolutely no interest to me.

Written by a nobody.

doesnt matter who its written by does it? its what it says that matters
and what it says may well happen, it may well not

all i know is that if it were Cardiff in this position, id be 100% worried at this possibility, yet youre not bothered at all which suggests you dont care as much as a real fan should...

i just think you should stop being so arrogant about this whole situation, until a decision is made, because it might come back to haunt you

99% of londoners are arrogant scott.

Got to number 2 and was falling asleep.

If I'm honest it's of absolutely no interest to me.

Written by a nobody.

doesnt matter who its written by does it? its what it says that matters
and what it says may well happen, it may well not

all i know is that if it were Cardiff in this position, id be 100% worried at this possibility, yet youre not bothered at all which suggests you dont care as much as a real fan should...

i just think you should stop being so arrogant about this whole situation, until a decision is made, because it might come back to haunt you

'I don't care as much as a real fan' ?? Bore off. I've been watching QPR for 30 years since I was first taken at 4, through all the shite, we've had next to f**k all to ever celebrate or get too excited about so please tell me where I am not a real fan?

Anyway the article was boring, just another conspiracy theory that doesn't really interest me if I'm honest. What happens on the 6th of May interests me & not much else. Why is it arrogant? Because I don't want to listen to people guessing what might happen?

I've said all along I'm only expecting a fine & I don't expect that to change its my opinion if you don't like it tough titty.

When you have kids & mortgages to pay you will soon realise theirs more important things in life.

all i know is that if it were Cardiff in this position, id be 100% worried at this possibility

Just going off topic slightly I wonder if we could have ever fallen foul if we had done the exact same thing as QPR?

OK the FL now have rules in place covering third party ownership so we would be in trouble if we entered into a third party ownership now.

However, in 2009 when QPR signed Alejandro Faurlin only the FA Regulations prevented FL clubs entering into third party arrangements and that's why the FA and not the FL are charging QPR with a breach of regualtions.

However, we come under the umbrella of the Welsh FA and I'm not certain whether they had the same regulations in place at the time, or indeed whether they have now?

If they didn't then surely it would have been possible for us to sign Alejandro Faurlin in 2009 without now sufferring the same fate as QPR?