QPR- interesting read

It seems to me that the whole QPR points deduction scenario is one coloured by uncertainty about what the implications would if a points deduction were imposed and to that end, depending on which camp you're in, whether you're an optimist or pessimist, or whether you are prone to clutching at straws will determine how you view the scenario.

Most people, I think sensibly, have adopted the bury the head in the sand philosophy and will wait and see with everyone committing to "getting as many points as we can".

Before our game with QPR on Saturday the BBC were reporting that they "understood" that QPR will ultimately be fined and not face a points deduction, and indeed the QPR spin machine has been engaging in a full on assault since the charges were brought to push the message that they would not be getting a points deduction.

I must confess to have only taking a passing interest in the QPR story when it broke in March, but as we reach the climax of the season my interest was piqued and I have spent several hours researching the allegations, reading the FA website, reading news reports and reading blog reports of several fan websites including our own, QPR's and Crystal Palace's who's fans have taken great interest in the plight of their local rivals, particularly after their own points deduction last season.

My conclusions should give QPR fans real concern and should only lead to one possible outcome, and are as follows:

1. The charges faced by QPR are extremely serious and are fundamentally two-fold. That they broke third party player ownership rules that were clearly established and made clear to all clubs after the Tevez affair, and that (in my view more seriously) they then attempted to cover up this breach in October 2010 by submitting falsified documents to the FA.
2. Alot of people compare the QPR situation to West Ham's with Tevez, however when charged West Ham held their hands up immediately and many feel this helped them avoid a points deduction, plus there was never any real suggestion of attempted fraud, ultimately it was found that they had broken the rules but, lets say, they had perhaps been naive of the rules. QPR on the other hand have refuted the claims the FA have brought (which as we have seen with Rooney recently doesn't go down well with the FA), and we have the added issue of an attempted fraud.
3. This fraud element moves this (in my view) into a very different scenario and one which people haven't suggested as a comparison, but here goes 1990 Swindon Town. If you're not old enough to remember Swindon won promotion from what became the Championship to what would become the Premier League via the play-offs but were found guilty of making illegal payments to players and a few weeks later were relegated two divisions by the FA this was later reduced to a one division relegation and they found themselves back in the Championship.
4. It is this precedent that I feel will mean that QPR will face a points deduction at least.
5. Many people have said that the FA have screwed up by delaying the decision until the last week of the season, I think this is entirely deliberate and is ultimately the right way to have handled this - consider the Swindon example from 1990. The charges against Swindon were identified well before the end of season playoffs but the FA sensibly allowed the season to run its course with all teams trying their best. Some might say it was cruel to Swindon fans to let them experience promotion however had they lost the playoffs presumably they would have been relegated to what became League One, instead of back to the Championship i.e the faced a one division relegation as their penalty regardless of how they finished up. I think the FA are using this as a precedent, to give no indication of a points deduction so that all teams play to their potential without bringing the integrity of this Championship season into question. QPR may need to gain promotion to the Premier League in order that they are relegated back to the Championship and not League One as with the Swindon case.
6. Consider if QPR had been given a 10 point, 30 point or even a relegation as a punishment announced in March. How would this have affected their own players approach to remaining matches and what impact would that have had on the points earned by the teams they later played who could have had an unfair advantage playing against a team that had psychologically imploded. Far more sensible to delay any announcement so that everyone assumes no points will be deducted, so the chasing pack give it their all and assume that 3rd place misses auto-promotion, and 7th place misses the play-offs. This would ensure that no one can have any complaints of unfair advantage when a decision is made.
7. Also if a relegation is the penalty imposed then if this had been announced in March it would have meant QPR would have had to gain promotion to the Premier League to ensure they stayed in the Championship. This would clearly be an intolerable position to put them in at that time or indeed for the other clubs so the FA, by delaying the decision, have ensured the integrity of the season, and also giving a massive hidden clue that a points deduction at least is guaranteed. Consider the alternative, if it was just a fine then impose it now, why wait?
8. Points deductions are imposed for far less serious offences. A club going into administration, which mostly happens due to mismanagement and not fraud guarantees a 10 point deduction. Luton Town were deducted 10 points for illegal agent payments and a further 20 points for issues around their administration status. This effectively relegated them out of the Football League! QPR should be looking at a minimum 10 point penalty plus an additional penalty for attempting to deceive the FA. The treatment of Luton Town demonstrates that the FA will impose the rules ruthlessly regardless of the implications to the punished club. Hereford and Torquay were deducted 3 points and 1 point respectively for each fielding an illegible player in their match on 1st February. This was the day after the transfer window closed and basically resulted from clerical errors in the form filling process of players signed in the last few hours of the transfer window. So a c**k up, not fraud, but resulted in points being docked. If QPR don't get a points deduction for what they have done then it will fly in the face of the precedent set down to all other clubs.
9. In summary then I believe QPR will face something like a 30 point penalty deduction, as that is the scale of the seriousness of the offences, which assuming they fill one of the top two slots will equate to a relegation. All this talk of legal cases are a smoke screen. The FA have QPR bang to rights and determining the penalty is all that needs to be agreed. They are going to take a very dim view of the attempt to deceive them, as they did with Luton Town.
10. A 30 point deduction would place QPR out of even the play off mix, allowing for the playoffs to proceed unhindered.

keep up at the back kind sir!

Didnt realise it had already been posted, just landed in my inbox in work.

I must say . This article is one of the most informative I have read.
I have few comments Regarding QPR, because Stan seems a nice guy:)
I am convinced we will go up in 2nd place anyway.
Its a crying shame that QPR see fit to cheat their fans out of a magnificent season
If QPR do go up WONT IT BE AN EMPTY VICTORY.
Thats a shame they play great football.
I am convinced they will get a HUGE points deduction.

I want to see Cardiff promoted. I really, really do. But not like this.
QPR deserve to be promoted as champions, and I will feel sorry for them if they are given a severe enough punishment that means that this won't happen.
I really do feel for the fans, the team and the footballing staff. They really could be seeing a huge punishment here because of a few muppets. I'd hate to see it happen to any team really, much more to a team that really does deserve promotion.

Fantstic read and if true then deserved , no fan deserves punishment but they dont cheat , if this is true then qpr will get done , didnt see it as swindon scenario.

8 days and we will know but the more i read the more a fine wont be the outcome , 10 points plus £3 million fine in line with 10% of revenue from Prem

i think if they were going to get a deduction it would of been done by now, really dont understand why it couldnt be dealt with sooner.

i think if they were going to get a deduction it would of been done by now, really dont understand why it couldnt be dealt with sooner.

Some good reasons in report above - sounds factual representation to me

i think if they were going to get a deduction it would of been done by now, really dont understand why it couldn't be dealt with sooner.

Q.P.R. pleaded not guilty to the 7 charges brought upon them by the FA, therefore they must go to a hearing with the independent regulations committee. (starting 3rd May)

The sanctions imposed can only be applied immediately after a hearing by the IRC, (in this case - 6th May) and then the club will have 14 days to appeal. (if they wish to appeal or accept the punishment served)

that is why it couldn't be dealt with sooner.

i think if they were going to get a deduction it would of been done by now, really dont understand why it couldn't be dealt with sooner.

Q.P.R. pleaded not guilty to the 7 charges brought upon them by the FA, therefore they must go to a hearing with the independent regulations committee. (starting 3rd May)

The sanctions imposed can only be applied immediately after a hearing by the IRC, (in this case - 6th May) and then the club will have 14 days to appeal. (if they wish to appeal or accept the punishment served)

that is why it couldn't be dealt with sooner.

So the playoffs could be screwed up if they are given points deduction and appeal ???

i think if they were going to get a deduction it would of been done by now, really dont understand why it couldn't be dealt with sooner.

Q.P.R. pleaded not guilty to the 7 charges brought upon them by the FA, therefore they must go to a hearing with the independent regulations committee. (starting 3rd May)

The sanctions imposed can only be applied immediately after a hearing by the IRC, (in this case - 6th May) and then the club will have 14 days to appeal. (if they wish to appeal or accept the punishment served)

that is why it couldn't be dealt with sooner.

So the playoffs could be screwed up if they are given points deduction and appeal ???

Not necessarily - if they deducted enough points to not even qualify for the play offs!

nah,it is more than likely that the club would appeal almost immediately! given the circumstances.

So the playoffs could be screwed up if they are given points deduction and appeal ???[/quote]

Not necessarily - if they deducted enough points to not even qualify for the play offs!

nah,it is more than likely that the club would appeal almost immediately! given the circumstances.[/quote]

if they are deducted enough points to put them out of playoffs , and playoffs go ahead as scheldue , what happens if they win the appeal (personally i only think it will be a fine btw )

So the playoffs could be screwed up if they are given points deduction and appeal ???

Not necessarily - if they deducted enough points to not even qualify for the play offs!

nah,it is more than likely that the club would appeal almost immediately! given the circumstances.[/quote]

if they are deducted enough points to put them out of playoffs , and playoffs go ahead as scheldue , what happens if they win the appeal (personally i only think it will be a fine btw )[/quote]

I ask you the same question I am waiting for Stan to answer?

What are the IRC going to FINE QPR FOR? can you explain what you are thinking and why a fine would be imposed? and have you ever heard of the IRC fining a club 7 seperate fines for 7 charges?

So the playoffs could be screwed up if they are given points deduction and appeal ???

Not necessarily - if they deducted enough points to not even qualify for the play offs!

nah,it is more than likely that the club would appeal almost immediately! given the circumstances.[/quote]

if they are deducted enough points to put them out of playoffs , and playoffs go ahead as scheldue , what happens if they win the appeal (personally i only think it will be a fine btw )[/quote]

If QPR are found guilty on any of the charges and decide to appeal they must do so within 5 days of the notification of punishment i.e. 11th May. The FA could hear that appeal at best the following day but no more than a couple of days in my opinion.

Also there are only 2 grounds for appeal New information that was not available to the IRC (Only allowed in exceptional circumstances) and that the punishment was to severe. The FA normally cover this appeal by hitting clubs with say a 2 division relegation reduced to 1 on appeal. I'm not saying that will happen for a second but a 2 point deduction could be reduced to 1, or a 10 point deduction reduced to 5 or a 20 point deduction reduced to 10.

Having said that I'm with Merlin I would love to know what people think QPR will be found guilty of which will only result in a fine.

i think if they were going to get a deduction it would of been done by now, really dont understand why it couldn't be dealt with sooner.

Q.P.R. pleaded not guilty to the 7 charges brought upon them by the FA, therefore they must go to a hearing with the independent regulations committee. (starting 3rd May)

The sanctions imposed can only be applied immediately after a hearing by the IRC, (in this case - 6th May) and then the club will have 14 days to appeal. (if they wish to appeal or accept the punishment served)

that is why it couldn't be dealt with sooner.

I believe the appeal must be within 5 days Merlin.

i think if they were going to get a deduction it would of been done by now, really dont understand why it couldn't be dealt with sooner.

Q.P.R. pleaded not guilty to the 7 charges brought upon them by the FA, therefore they must go to a hearing with the independent regulations committee. (starting 3rd May)

The sanctions imposed can only be applied immediately after a hearing by the IRC, (in this case - 6th May) and then the club will have 14 days to appeal. (if they wish to appeal or accept the punishment served)

that is why it couldn't be dealt with sooner.

I believe the appeal must be within 5 days Merlin.

What makes you say 5 days, CastleBlue? All the QPR bods seem to have taken it as gospel that QPR have 14 days to appeal?

APPEAL PROCEDURE.

(i) Notification
If the Participant intends to lodge an appeal, The Association must be notified in writing
(either by fax 0844 980 0625 or by e-mail Disciplinary@TheFA.com)
(a) by 12 noon on the first working day following the Regulatory Commission; or
(b) in cases where written reasons are requested, by 12 noon on the first working
day following receipt of the written reasons, i.e. the fourth working day after the
Regulatory Commission.
(ii) Submissions
By 6pm on the first working day following notification of intention to appeal, the Club or
Appellant must provide The Association and the Chairman of the Judicial Panel (or his
nominee) with copies of all submissions, evidence and documents upon which it intends
to rely, along with the appropriate appeal fee of £100. If the submissions, evidence and
documents are not submitted within this time limit, they may not be considered by the
Appeal Board.
An appeal shall be by way of a review of documents and oral submissions only and shall not
involve a rehearing of the evidence considered by the Regulatory Commission.
However, new evidence may be admitted with the leave of the Chairman of the Appeal
Board. The Football Regulatory Authority will ensure that all documents relating to the
original Regulatory Commission hearing are provided to the Appeal Board.
(iii) Responses
The Association will have two working days to provide its responses to the appeal
submissions, evidence and documents provided by the Club or Appellant. The Association’s
responses must be provided to the Club/Appellant and the Appeal Board. Submissions,
evidence and documents not submitted within this time limit may not be considered by
the Appeal Board.
(iv) Hearing
The Appeal Board will hear the appeal at the earliest available opportunity, but, in any case,
no earlier than on the second day after submission of The Association’s responses.

Ironic that the appeal has 4 days to be received, and the panel then have to respond in 2 days! so 6 days from the 6th may is the 12th may - THE DATE OF THE VERY FIRST PLAY OFF SEMI FINAL!

APPEAL PROCEDURE.

(i) Notification
If the Participant intends to lodge an appeal, The Association must be notified in writing
(either by fax 0844 980 0625 or by e-mail Disciplinary@TheFA.com)
(a) by 12 noon on the first working day following the Regulatory Commission; or
(b) in cases where written reasons are requested, by 12 noon on the first working
day following receipt of the written reasons, i.e. the fourth working day after the
Regulatory Commission.
(ii) Submissions
By 6pm on the first working day following notification of intention to appeal, the Club or
Appellant must provide The Association and the Chairman of the Judicial Panel (or his
nominee) with copies of all submissions, evidence and documents upon which it intends
to rely, along with the appropriate appeal fee of £100. If the submissions, evidence and
documents are not submitted within this time limit, they may not be considered by the
Appeal Board.
An appeal shall be by way of a review of documents and oral submissions only and shall not
involve a rehearing of the evidence considered by the Regulatory Commission.
However, new evidence may be admitted with the leave of the Chairman of the Appeal
Board. The Football Regulatory Authority will ensure that all documents relating to the
original Regulatory Commission hearing are provided to the Appeal Board.
(iii) Responses
The Association will have two working days to provide its responses to the appeal
submissions, evidence and documents provided by the Club or Appellant. The Association’s
responses must be provided to the Club/Appellant and the Appeal Board. Submissions,
evidence and documents not submitted within this time limit may not be considered by
the Appeal Board.
(iv) Hearing
The Appeal Board will hear the appeal at the earliest available opportunity, but, in any case,
no earlier than on the second day after submission of The Association’s responses.

That's interesting so it is 5 'working' days, which in QPR's case will be the following Friday the 13 May

If I read it right then the IRC will respond in 2 'working' days which would be Tuesday 17 May.

That said QPR could appeal sooner and IRC report back quicker so in theory any appeal could be dealt with before the Play-offs start?

i did edit the end of my last post! sorry.

APPEAL PROCEDURE.

(i) Notification
If the Participant intends to lodge an appeal, The Association must be notified in writing
(either by fax 0844 980 0625 or by e-mail Disciplinary@TheFA.com)
(a) by 12 noon on the first working day following the Regulatory Commission; or
(b) in cases where written reasons are requested, by 12 noon on the first working
day following receipt of the written reasons, i.e. the fourth working day after the
Regulatory Commission.
(ii) Submissions
By 6pm on the first working day following notification of intention to appeal, the Club or
Appellant must provide The Association and the Chairman of the Judicial Panel (or his
nominee) with copies of all submissions, evidence and documents upon which it intends
to rely, along with the appropriate appeal fee of £100. If the submissions, evidence and
documents are not submitted within this time limit, they may not be considered by the
Appeal Board.
An appeal shall be by way of a review of documents and oral submissions only and shall not
involve a rehearing of the evidence considered by the Regulatory Commission.
However, new evidence may be admitted with the leave of the Chairman of the Appeal
Board. The Football Regulatory Authority will ensure that all documents relating to the
original Regulatory Commission hearing are provided to the Appeal Board.
(iii) Responses
The Association will have two working days to provide its responses to the appeal
submissions, evidence and documents provided by the Club or Appellant. The Association’s
responses must be provided to the Club/Appellant and the Appeal Board. Submissions,
evidence and documents not submitted within this time limit may not be considered by
the Appeal Board.
(iv) Hearing
The Appeal Board will hear the appeal at the earliest available opportunity, but, in any case,
no earlier than on the second day after submission of The Association’s responses.

Ironic that the appeal has 4 days to be received, and the panel then have to respond in 2 days! so 6 days from the 6th may is the 12th may - THE DATE OF THE VERY FIRST PLAY OFF SEMI FINAL!

As Donald Rumsfeld once said there are those who know and know what they know, there are those who don't know and know that they don't know and then there are those that don't know and don't know they don't know.

I think you are definately in the 1st category Merlin.

i think if they were going to get a deduction it would of been done by now, really dont understand why it couldn't be dealt with sooner.

Q.P.R. pleaded not guilty to the 7 charges brought upon them by the FA, therefore they must go to a hearing with the independent regulations committee. (starting 3rd May)

The sanctions imposed can only be applied immediately after a hearing by the IRC, (in this case - 6th May) and then the club will have 4 days to appeal, and await a 2 day reply! [edited 28/04/11] (if they wish to appeal or accept the punishment served)

that is why it couldn't be dealt with sooner.

cheers mate i aint read up on it much