" LET US ALL REMEMBER "

how can a loan be considered ownership craig is owned by manchester city

I am asking can it be likened too, in that the wages are being paid for by elsewhere and we as a club are not paying one penny towards it, unless we gain promotion this season.

absolutely not and thats the way the football league see it as they sanctioned it.
i agree with you that other clubs would have paid craigs wages but you cant make a player go where he dosent want to.
craig wanted this move for himself and it suited man city to let it happen

I agree Steve others would have paid the wages

It just seems to me that many City fans are looking at the QPR case as the only way of promotion and I hope that we do it on merit, not just for us as fans but the club in general and DJ

Wrong again Carl.

i would say the majority of us want to go up in 2nd, that is on merit. However if we fail to get 2nd then the majority of us will take the default option.

Not play offs then Ian, my point exactly

It just seems to me that many City fans are looking at the QPR case as the only way of promotion and I hope that we do it on merit, not just for us as fans but the club in general and DJ

Wrong again Carl.

i would say the majority of us want to go up in 2nd, that is on merit. However if we fail to get 2nd then the majority of us will take the default option.

Not play offs then Ian, my point exactly

Hopefully not and I would say all of us will take a QPR points deduction if we end up in 3rd.

Annis has sent this around facebook, why >

:lol:
Annis has sent this around facebook, why >

Are you getting paid for the publicity you generate for this forum?

OK then another way to think about it.

Who owns Cardiff City ?

Many different people but the Malaysians have a major say but not total control ( 40% approx )

What is Cardiff City's wage bill ?

Around £16million per season

Is Bellamy's wage part of this wage bill ?

Simple answer, No.

Who pays Bellamy's wage ?

Vincent Tan

Can this not be likened to third party ownership ?

Answers please.

how can a loan be considered ownership craig is owned by manchester city

I am asking can it be likened too, in that the wages are being paid for by elsewhere and we as a club are not paying one penny towards it, unless we gain promotion this season.

You are so way off Carl. It's Faulin's 'economic rights' i.e. his transfer value/ownership which has been partly held elsewhere which is the real issue and bears no comparison whatsoever to Craig Bellamy being paid directly by our clubs major shareholder.

It basically boils down to who is your boss and who you owe ultimate loyalty to. To give you the worst case example in theory the South American Agency could take a bribe from say Norwich and tell Faulin to give away a penalty in the last 10 minutes in QPR’s game against Norwich. Norwich eventually wins the game and pip QPR to an automatic promotion spot.

Faulin is then moved out and loaned to Norwich so he can play in the Premiership and QPR can't do anything about it.

However, if QPR owned Faulin's economic rights he would have no interest in giving away the penalty in the first place. It might sound farfetched, but once an avenue of influence is opened up by third party ownership it can be exploited by several outside interests, including betting syndicates.

:lol:
Annis has sent this around facebook, why >

Are you getting paid for the publicity you generate for this forum?

Sadly no but I am far from the only member who contributes and stimulates great debate on this great forum.

It has been a great debate so far and shows again that there can be many varied opinions on here without slagging anyone off

:lol:
Annis has sent this around facebook, why >

Are you getting paid for the publicity you generate for this forum?

Sadly no but I am far from the only member who contributes and stimulates great debate on this great forum.

It has been a great debate so far and shows again that there can be many varied opinions on here without slagging anyone off

I know, no one has called you a c*nt yet or threatened to knock you out

Sadly no but I am far from the only member who contributes and stimulates great debate on this great forum.

It has been a great debate so far and shows again that there can be many varied opinions on here without slagging anyone off

I know, no one has called you a c*nt yet or threatened to knock you out

Not yet anyway

Sadly no but I am far from the only member who contributes and stimulates great debate on this great forum.

It has been a great debate so far and shows again that there can be many varied opinions on here without slagging anyone off

I know, no one has called you a c*nt yet or threatened to knock you out

Not yet anyway

You called my opinion 'poppy cock' I googled the expression and it confirmed what I thought, it's a candied popcorn flavour

But do you believe that the majority would care should we be mid table ?

I'm not sure but my experience tellsme most, not all people, only show interest in things that affect them so probably not. But I also believe there will be many people who will be interested in the outcome of this case like myself.

Let me tell you something about myself many years ago my son was playing for his local youth club in a County FA Cup Competition, it was the quarter final stage and the game was on a Wednesday evening. I was working but said I would do my best to get there but I couldn't promise. Anyway I managed to get away from work early and arrived during the 2nd half and was delighted to find my sons team not only winning but he had scored a goal, I was so proud of him until I realised the team manager was playing a ringer an overage player.

I knew what I had to do immediately and whilst the game was going on I telephoned the County FA and reported the breach of rules. After the game I approached the team manager and told him I had reported the ineligible overage player, he was the team managers son.

When I got home I spoke to my son and told him what I had done and why I had to do it he said its OK Dad I told the manager not to do it because if you found out you would report it. The team manager never spoke to me again my sons team were expelled from the competition and I never batted an eyelid, black and white you see, my son has always been fine about I had always taught him right from wrong. Nothing wrong with my moral barometer.

So please answer one thing for me Carl and never mind the reasons or motivations behind peoples interest or disinterest in this story.

Is the integrity of football better served by punishing a club found guilty of breaching regulations and if required stopping them from being promoted or is it better to adopt a more liberal namby pamby attitude of well they deserve to be top of the league because they have the best team and are there on merit.

I know which side of the fence I'm on hows your moral barometer Carl.

Firstly what you done was very brave and humble of you considering it was your son's team

If QPR are found guilty and are deducted points then so be it and I believe that would be correct.

Nowhere in this thread have I said otherwise, my point from the beginning has been I hope that we get automatic on merit and not just by default as I think we will be battered by it by other club and also DJ would not live it down amongst many City fans.

I know, no one has called you a c*nt yet or threatened to knock you out

Not yet anyway

You called my opinion 'poppy cock' I googled the expression and it confirmed what I thought, it's a candied popcorn flavour

Tony you use the expression first

You called my opinion 'poppy cock' I googled the expression and it confirmed what I thought, it's a candied popcorn flavour

Tony you use the expression first

Poppy Cock is my Nuclear option....

OK then another way to think about it.

Who owns Cardiff City ?

Many different people but the Malaysians have a major say but not total control ( 40% approx )

What is Cardiff City's wage bill ?

Around £16million per season

Is Bellamy's wage part of this wage bill ?

Simple answer, No.

Who pays Bellamy's wage ?

Vincent Tan

Can this not be likened to third party ownership ?

Answers please.

Same as Chelsea and Man City. Without their owners backrolling them they couldnt afford the players that they have got. Man City wage bill is 106% of their turnover and since 2003 Abramovich has provided interest-free loans of £740million as well as spending £30m last summer and £73m on David Luiz and Fernando Torres in January.

Craig correct me if I am wrong but was Faurlin ineligible this season or part of last season ?

Sorry to have missed your question Carl, through all the posts.

My answer would be BOTH!

So sheffield Wednesday will be keeping a close on eye on the hearing too!

we have done nothing wrong,we have abided by the rules,qpr havent so if they get docked points so be it,i fail to see any comparision to what qpr have done & the bellamy loan to us!if we are promoted as a result of qpr be docked pointss i will celebrate just as much!

EXACTLY!

I dont see any comparison either - as we didn't break any rules regarding bringing Bellamy in! The wages is something sorted between both clubs. Man City were obviously happy with the arrangement to let it go through.

This also draws unnecessary attention to our club, when it is already done and dusted months ago!!

We are paying over a 3rd of Bellamy's wages, and as i understand it - if we are promoted, then we have to pay the Full amount of what Man City have already payed back to them on completion of promotion?

Craig your understanding that we pay over a 3rd of Bellamy's wages is wrong but that is not the point of the post I am just stating that we have morally not done right and I expect the rules to change BECAUSE of what we have done.

I am not having a go at our club or it's policy I was the same as anyone else who was ecstatic when we signed him, but the point is that many are the high horse I am just stating that we are not whiter than white.

thats fair enough carl buddy but it doesnt matters what is morally right or wrong with regards to ccfc, we got the bellamy signing all signed off by all officials, QPR have done wrong and have gone a step further by forging documents to cover this. There is no comparision with our situation & QPR's, they broke the rules we didnt!!

EXACTLY!

I dont see any comparison either - as we didn't break any rules regarding bringing Bellamy in! The wages is something sorted between both clubs. Man City were obviously happy with the arrangement to let it go through.

This also draws unnecessary attention to our club, when it is already done and dusted months ago!!

We are paying over a 3rd of Bellamy's wages, and as i understand it - if we are promoted, then we have to pay the Full amount of what Man City have already payed back to them on completion of promotion?

Craig your understanding that we pay over a 3rd of Bellamy's wages is wrong but that is not the point of the post I am just stating that we have morally not done right and I expect the rules to change BECAUSE of what we have done.

I am not having a go at our club or it's policy I was the same as anyone else who was ecstatic when we signed him, but the point is that many are the high horse I am just stating that we are not whiter than white.

thats fair enough carl buddy but it doesnt matters what is morally right or wrong with regards to ccfc, we got the bellamy signing all signed off by all officials, QPR have done wrong and have gone a step further by forging documents to cover this. There is no comparision with our situation & QPR's, they broke the rules we didnt!!

assuming they are guilty

thats fair enough carl buddy but it doesnt matters what is morally right or wrong with regards to ccfc, we got the bellamy signing all signed off by all officials, QPR have done wrong and have gone a step further by forging documents to cover this. There is no comparision with our situation & QPR's, they broke the rules we didnt!!

We'll find that out on Friday won't we? we are all uncertain of the exact details, so until the IRC have spent their 3 days looking at the case, then we won't know if they have REALLY broken the rules for sure......

assuming QPR are guilty then they deserve everything they get as they broke the rules that were set in stone.....we signed bellamy and broke no rules whatsoever and all the clubs were going mad! At the end of the day if we had gone into admin we would have been deducted the 20 points as they are the rules! would we be getting sympathetic views from other clubs....would we f**k! f**k QPR if they are guilty. If we can't overhaul norwich on our own and we do get promoted because qpr are deducted points i will be celebrating just as much. "IF YOU CAN'T DO THE TIME, DON'T DO THE CRIME"

Yes we signed Bellamy, Say,Jason K. JET but we did it within the rules. Yes maybe its not what the system was designed foe but WE HAVE BROKEN NO RULES. Dave Jones in fact has been very clever in bringing in these players ok sometimes tactics have let him down but he has aaembled a quality team for next to nothing. So lets give him credit for that.
Should we be better placed by now absolutely. But if the players had produced the performancewd we are now witnessing we'd be up by now.

EXACTLY!

I dont see any comparison either - as we didn't break any rules regarding bringing Bellamy in! The wages is something sorted between both clubs. Man City were obviously happy with the arrangement to let it go through.

This also draws unnecessary attention to our club, when it is already done and dusted months ago!!

We are paying over a 3rd of Bellamy's wages, and as i understand it - if we are promoted, then we have to pay the Full amount of what Man City have already payed back to them on completion of promotion?

Craig your understanding that we pay over a 3rd of Bellamy's wages is wrong but that is not the point of the post I am just stating that we have morally not done right and I expect the rules to change BECAUSE of what we have done.

I am not having a go at our club or it's policy I was the same as anyone else who was ecstatic when we signed him, but the point is that many are the high horse I am just stating that we are not whiter than white.

thats a good point but there has to be something not right for the FA to investigate and they have obviously unearthed something of great significance as they would have made a desicion already!!

This is all pure conjecture folks, let's keep a cool head,

assuming QPR are guilty then they deserve everything they get as they broke the rules that were set in stone.....we signed bellamy and broke no rules whatsoever and all the clubs were going mad! At the end of the day if we had gone into admin we would have been deducted the 20 points as they are the rules! would we be getting sympathetic views from other clubs....would we f**k! f**k QPR if they are guilty. If we can't overhaul norwich on our own and we do get promoted because qpr are deducted points i will be celebrating just as much. "IF YOU CAN'T DO THE TIME, DON'T DO THE CRIME"

Yes we signed Bellamy, Say,Jason K. JET but we did it within the rules. Yes maybe its not what the system was designed for but WE HAVE BROKEN NO RULES. Dave Jones in fact has been very clever in bringing in these players ok sometimes tactics have let him down but he has aaembled a quality team for next to nothing. So lets give him credit for that.
Should we be better placed by now absolutely. But if the players had produced the performancewd we are now witnessing we'd be up by now.

Can you elaborate on the previous comment you made?

WE have used the loan market perfectly & legally - and I dont understand your sentiment as to regards with "What the system was designed for?"

Carl, excellent post (as usual)

However, there ARE subtle (and not so subtle) differences between the two situations:

1: We DID NOT break the rules and IF the FA/FL decide to amend them in the Summer then I am sure OUR club will abide by them

2: QPR have UNDOUBTEDLY committed offences. They have OWNED UP to TWO of them and are disputing another FIVE.

The FA/FL would not bring these charges if they did not believe the offences HAD occurred and will not be swayed by either the attempt by QPR to 'lessen' the charges by their early plea on the two admissions OR the play games of the British media

That the QPR situation IS a distraction to us at the moment I fully agree on and I just hope the players are of a different mindset to many of the fans (including me to some extent) BUT I MUST POINT OUT that quite a lot of the messages on here this week regarding QPR have been started by (or perpetuated) by THEIR fans, including our new-found friend, Stan-QPR

He has been, putting it mildly, a little contradictary in SOME of his statements (e.g. originally STATING he had a friend 'in the know' but latterly changing to "it's only my opinion" as twitchy bum time approaches

I, for one, do NOT believe that QPR will be docked sufficient (if any at all) points to keep them out of the Premiership. However, I DO believe that IF found guilty then that should be the MINIMUM penalty, as ANY monetary fine will be a drop in the ocean to owners like they have and, in effect, they will have 'got away with it' at least morally

I also believe that it is in Cardiff City's interests to 'get the job done' ourselves and WITHOUT the need for external assistance (other than some help from Norwich or their opponents, of course!! ) and THAT is what we should focus on this week

However, it will not stop me (or many others who feel strongly on here) from commenting when supporters (inc. Stan, who I generally respect despite his original purpose) come on this MB and make statements they can neither prove, disprove or genuinely substantiate until AFTER the decision has been made and the punishment (if any) has been meted out

It is, after all, all conjecture and rumour at the moment. But I do believe that, IF found guilty, QPR should be punished FULLY in line with their crime and the rules as laid down by the FA/FL

I sincerely hope that it affects Norwich City more than it does Cardiff City FC because then it will mean WE have done OUR jobs correctly and WE will be in the Premiership without debate and without finger pointing. Although, if the FA/FL do THEIR job then hopefully Norwich will be celebrating with us and QPR can go to the play-offs, which would STILL be TOO GOOD for them!!

Does anyone think that the QPR legal team are all over this message board looking for reasons to say that they cant have a fair hearing as QPR as the merits of the case has been publicly discussed they have only 3 days to make up their minds we have been discussing it on here what seems like an eternity

I can't remember

Sunderland fans moaning when they got promoted by default

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swindon_Town_F.C.

Great topic of debate this one but I must agree with many on here and although I would feel sympathy for QPR fans and especially the manager, if rules are broken then punishment should follow, I'm not sure if the punishment will be a points deduction or a fine but either way if we get promoted as a result of this then I would be a very happy man. If Cardiff City had broken rules then I would expect punishment from the powers that be.
To be honest this one for me is a no brainer. I would obviously prefer us to go up without this drama but I really wouldn't be bothered at all if we go up as a result of QPR's fuk up, in fact I would celebrate exactly the same.
Good luck to QPR on their hearing all the same.
Jes

Does anyone think that the QPR legal team are all over this message board looking for reasons to say that they cant have a fair hearing as QPR as the merits of the case has been publicly discussed they have only 3 days to make up their minds we have been discussing it on here what seems like an eternity

Nope!! This is just an independent MB where people can comment freely (and often do!! )

The QPR legal team will be 'playing ALL necessary games' elsewhere at the moment to make the charges appear to be NOT as serious as they are and/or to convince the Board that they do NOT warrant serious retribution....

IF found guilty the footballing world will be watching carefully and (as Lord Mawhinney stated previously) the FA/FL will NEED to be seen to be protecting the integrity of the game. That, in itself, points to trouble for QPR

First of all i read all of Carl's posts some i agree with others i dont and on this one i certainly dont. For one Carl you did not raise any objections to the Craig Bellamy deal at the time in fact you did the opposite and creamed yourself along with the rest of us. As for QPR that is down to the Football League and to be honest i would have to rely on the League to do the right thing as to be honest i have better things to do than read through pages of that Crap. If they have done wrong then as the Clubs before them Swindon Luton ETC they will have to pay the price. Is it fair ? No because the only ones it truly hurts is us the Fans and that is wrong. The guilty parties wander off into the sunset without a thought for the poor supporters that they leave behind.
How should it be done ? Perhaps the guilty party should have a lifetime ban from football ? But lets get this right would Stan or anyone from QPR have any sympathy for us had it been the other way round ? None at all !! and will i celebrate like f**k if we go up in this fashion ? of coarse i will.

First of all i read all of Carl's posts some i agree with others i dont and on this one i certainly dont. For one Carl you did not raise any objections to the Craig Bellamy deal at the time in fact you did the opposite and creamed yourself along with the rest of us. As for QPR that is down to the Football League and to be honest i would have to rely on the League to do the right thing as to be honest i have better things to do than read through pages of that Crap. If they have done wrong then as the Clubs before them Swindon Luton ETC they will have to pay the price. Is it fair ? No because the only ones it truly hurts is us the Fans and that is wrong. The guilty parties wander off into the sunset without a thought for the poor supporters that they leave behind.
How should it be done ? Perhaps the guilty party should have a lifetime ban from football ? But lets get this right would Stan or anyone from QPR have any sympathy for us had it been the other way round ? None at all !! and will i celebrate like f**k if we go up in this fashion ? of coarse i will.

Whether I raised objections to the Craig Bellamy deal at the time has no relevance Steve and nor do I object now, I am simply stating that many were gunning for us when we signed him like many seem to be gunning for QPR now when there is a possibility of a points deduction that could affect us, would you be bothered if we were mid table ?

Creaming myself, don't make me laugh will you, I took enough flak at the time when very few believed I was correct that we were indeed trying to sign him and that we offered to pay £18k pw for his services.

F**k QPR, I only care for one club and thats Cardiff City. This is a dog eat dog world and I would'nt care who we trampled over to get to the promised land!