" PMG "

I suppose you will find out the answer to what a significant amount is by going back to the Special General Meeting in May 2010 where I believe a chunk of shares were set aside that could be sold at the discretion of the board. What was the value of that chunk of shares?

Whatever it is there is obviously a balance still outstanding from the £11m loan PMG gave the club.

£3m mate. of whch £300k was converted that day and £2.7m put back - probably by VT and TG in the hope we would go up (then they wouldnt want PMG getting more shares).

If you read the article there seems to be more to it than this, by the wording. City still owe PMG £4-£5m maybe more, due in 2013, looks like this has been rescheduled and maybe even some of that turned to shares.

What noone seems to have mentione is that this also waters down TG and VTs shareholding further and hopefully they will be addressing that by turning some of their debt to equity too. Probably though most likely after the langston issue has at last been dealt with.

Yes but if he gets a job doesn't he forego any pay off from our club? Don't think he will be out of work long as much as I didn't like him he is regarded in the football world as a steady hand. I think the Malaysians have worked a blinder here. My only criticism was that it took a week or so longer than it should to sack him (put him on gardening leave) but I was not party to all the goings on and so can't comment what was going on between the defeat to Reading and his sacking.

Yes he would, but with the wages were paying him, I cant see him giving his Golf up.

Just one question "How does he swing the club with his hands in his pockets"

He has his balls in his pockets.

Sorry but I'm uncomfortable about this. PMG never came to us when the tax man came calling. Not long ago they were calling for their money, now they are buying shares in the club. Something is going on and I'm struggling to beleive it is for the benefit of the club.

in february 2010 pmg paid a total of 1.2 million to the tax man bearing in mind the fact that ridsdale had just pocketed the golden ticket money the month previous..
they along with steve borley then bought land around the stadium at the full market value and the proceeds of that sale went to pay further amounts of tax money owed
why dont some of you start looking at the real villian of the piece here and thats peter ridsdale.
Him along with Jones seem to get away with murder because of our losing wembley appearances.
The fact that those two were spending ridiculous amounts of money on players wages whilst drawing nearly 2 million in wages and expenses themselves seem to pass you all by and never at any stage did they try and reduce the debt hanging around the clubs neck.
Only ridsdale could sign a crippled fowler and brag about shirt sales when in fact all the profits on those shirts went to Joma who owned the club shop at the time.
It was ridsdales reckless spending that has ruined sams chance of getting his money back.he is the man who mortgaged our players to ray ransom.
He had the club in so much debt that they could not loan the money from any financial institution to complete the stadium project.
I dont know if people are aware of it but it was the council who held the monies until the initial base build was complete otherwise who knows what type of goldfish that money would have been spent on.
Paul guy loaned the missing nine million to the club from the principality and still stands as the guarantor.
Paul Guy has been at the club since 1995 and i will admit he is not the worlds greatest football fan but his support of the club in times of need cannot be questioned.

I suppose you will find out the answer to what a significant amount is by going back to the Special General Meeting in May 2010 where I believe a chunk of shares were set aside that could be sold at the discretion of the board. What was the value of that chunk of shares?

Whatever it is there is obviously a balance still outstanding from the £11m loan PMG gave the club.

£3m mate. of whch £300k was converted that day and £2.7m put back - probably by VT and TG in the hope we would go up (then they wouldnt want PMG getting more shares).

If you read the article there seems to be more to it than this, by the wording. City still owe PMG £4-£5m maybe more, due in 2013, looks like this has been rescheduled and maybe even some of that turned to shares.

What noone seems to have mentione is that this also waters down TG and VTs shareholding further and hopefully they will be addressing that by turning some of their debt to equity too. Probably though most likely after the langston issue has at last been dealt with.

Thanks for that and a very interesting point on the shareholding situation because the next question is "What is the % shareholding of Paul Guy either as Paul Guy or PMG and how does that compare to VT?"

just read this


At the EGM back in May last year , PMG converted £300k of their debt into shares and agreed to the club having the option to convert another £2.7m worth at any time until the end of this current financial year.The balance of remaining debt was then to be repaid by the end of Sept 2013.

Although today`s statement doesn`t give any figures , it does say that the debt position had been renegotiated, This suggests that either the deadline for repayment has been extended , or that a further debt to share swap has been agreed , or both.

Wonder who you got that off

The fact is also that we would have lost a few million quid last year, this will to a certain extent off-set that in the debt side of the balance sheet.

All we need now is Langston to be sorted/written off (not at the clubs expense otherwise it just creates a new debt) and VT/TG to turn their debt to equity bringing their shareholding to a majority. I don't see them doing that though unless/until we go up.

I wonder what would have happened iF we went up, the debt being sorted, or an almighty squabble over who was going to get their hands on the Premiership pot.

Wonder who you got that off

The fact is also that we would have lost a few million quid last year, this will to a certain extent off-set that in the debt side of the balance sheet.

All we need now is Langston to be sorted/written off (not at the clubs expense otherwise it just creates a new debt) and VT/TG to turn their debt to equity bringing their shareholding to a majority. I don't see them doing that though unless/until we go up.

I wonder what would have happened iF we went up, the debt being sorted, or an almighty squabble over who was going to get their hands on the Premiership pot.

Interesting question that "How long will this new loved up relationship last " Hmmmmmm very interesting question.

Going on information in the clubs annual accounts to 31st May 2009 where the PMG debt is recorded at £9.7m if they have exchanged all of the £2.7m value of shares they are still owed £7m less any repayments since.

Anyone like to have a guess at the outstanding figure say £6m

Sorry but I'm uncomfortable about this. PMG never came to us when the tax man came calling. Not long ago they were calling for their money, now they are buying shares in the club. Something is going on and I'm struggling to beleive it is for the benefit of the club.

I'm sick and tired of reading all your over the top positivity posts on this forum!!!

Going on information in the clubs annual accounts to 31st May 2009 where the PMG debt is recorded at £9.7m if they have exchanged all of the £2.7m value of shares they are still owed £7m less any repayments since.

Anyone like to have a guess at the outstanding figure say £6m

I took it that they were being paid in stages to Sept 2013, so some would have gone off. I'd have to look back at the May meeting minutes to check.

Elwood, So we still will have a DEBT with PMG, Hmm, No where near as good as I first thought, Dam.I was just reading the head line. I thought if we got them finished with then we really were on to a winner.

Annis I notice Mike Hall has been appointed to the Board - AGAIN, remember when he had to resign in the lead up to the Langston Court Hearing conflict of interest was the official line.


Hmmmmmm Smoke And Mirrors I keep thinking Smoke And Mirrors


It has to be said though converting debts to shares is a good thing for the club.

Gary, I dont care what other people think, But having another Rugby man on Board our Football Club, In My mind its not right and No I am Not happy about that and its my opinion. Where were the Rugby people when Cardiff City were Skint and in Division 4 ? they laughed at us.

Yes Def a Smoke Screen.

In what way do you think its a smoke screen Annis? By Who? The Malaysians? Because if thats the case you've gone on record here to say you will trust and go along with whatever decisions they make.

Also is there any chance of responding to a post in a previous thread, i've bumped it a few times but you've not responded. I'll bump it again now. Here's a link - viewtopic.php?t=46767.

Sorry but I'm uncomfortable about this. PMG never came to us when the tax man came calling. Not long ago they were calling for their money, now they are buying shares in the club. Something is going on and I'm struggling to beleive it is for the benefit of the club.

in february 2010 pmg paid a total of 1.2 million to the tax man bearing in mind the fact that ridsdale had just pocketed the golden ticket money the month previous..
they along with steve borley then bought land around the stadium at the full market value and the proceeds of that sale went to pay further amounts of tax money owed
why dont some of you start looking at the real villian of the piece here and thats peter ridsdale.
Him along with Jones seem to get away with murder because of our losing wembley appearances.
The fact that those two were spending ridiculous amounts of money on players wages whilst drawing nearly 2 million in wages and expenses themselves seem to pass you all by and never at any stage did they try and reduce the debt hanging around the clubs neck.
Only ridsdale could sign a crippled fowler and brag about shirt sales when in fact all the profits on those shirts went to Joma who owned the club shop at the time.
It was ridsdales reckless spending that has ruined sams chance of getting his money back.he is the man who mortgaged our players to ray ransom.
He had the club in so much debt that they could not loan the money from any financial institution to complete the stadium project.
I dont know if people are aware of it but it was the council who held the monies until the initial base build was complete otherwise who knows what type of goldfish that money would have been spent on.
Paul guy loaned the missing nine million to the club from the principality and still stands as the guarantor.
Paul Guy has been at the club since 1995 and i will admit he is not the worlds greatest football fan but his support of the club in times of need cannot be questioned.

Steve, should we read anything into Mike Hall rejoining the board ? I am thinking of the fact that he stood down from the board at the time of the legal action with Langston/Sam. Has he rejoined because they think the agreement with Langston is nto robust (To use a Ridsdaleism !).

Sorry but I'm uncomfortable about this. PMG never came to us when the tax man came calling. Not long ago they were calling for their money, now they are buying shares in the club. Something is going on and I'm struggling to beleive it is for the benefit of the club.

in february 2010 pmg paid a total of 1.2 million to the tax man bearing in mind the fact that ridsdale had just pocketed the golden ticket money the month previous..
they along with steve borley then bought land around the stadium at the full market value and the proceeds of that sale went to pay further amounts of tax money owed
why dont some of you start looking at the real villian of the piece here and thats peter ridsdale.
Him along with Jones seem to get away with murder because of our losing wembley appearances.
The fact that those two were spending ridiculous amounts of money on players wages whilst drawing nearly 2 million in wages and expenses themselves seem to pass you all by and never at any stage did they try and reduce the debt hanging around the clubs neck.
Only ridsdale could sign a crippled fowler and brag about shirt sales when in fact all the profits on those shirts went to Joma who owned the club shop at the time.
It was ridsdales reckless spending that has ruined sams chance of getting his money back.he is the man who mortgaged our players to ray ransom.
He had the club in so much debt that they could not loan the money from any financial institution to complete the stadium project.
I dont know if people are aware of it but it was the council who held the monies until the initial base build was complete otherwise who knows what type of goldfish that money would have been spent on.
Paul guy loaned the missing nine million to the club from the principality and still stands as the guarantor.
Paul Guy has been at the club since 1995 and i will admit he is not the worlds greatest football fan but his support of the club in times of need cannot be questioned.

£1.2 million? First I've heard of that. I thought they brought the land at a knock down price.

Sorry but I'm uncomfortable about this. PMG never came to us when the tax man came calling. Not long ago they were calling for their money, now they are buying shares in the club. Something is going on and I'm struggling to beleive it is for the benefit of the club.

in february 2010 pmg paid a total of 1.2 million to the tax man bearing in mind the fact that ridsdale had just pocketed the golden ticket money the month previous..
they along with steve borley then bought land around the stadium at the full market value and the proceeds of that sale went to pay further amounts of tax money owed
why dont some of you start looking at the real villian of the piece here and thats peter ridsdale.
Him along with Jones seem to get away with murder because of our losing wembley appearances.
The fact that those two were spending ridiculous amounts of money on players wages whilst drawing nearly 2 million in wages and expenses themselves seem to pass you all by and never at any stage did they try and reduce the debt hanging around the clubs neck.
Only ridsdale could sign a crippled fowler and brag about shirt sales when in fact all the profits on those shirts went to Joma who owned the club shop at the time.
It was ridsdales reckless spending that has ruined sams chance of getting his money back.he is the man who mortgaged our players to ray ransom.
He had the club in so much debt that they could not loan the money from any financial institution to complete the stadium project.
I dont know if people are aware of it but it was the council who held the monies until the initial base build was complete otherwise who knows what type of goldfish that money would have been spent on.
Paul guy loaned the missing nine million to the club from the principality and still stands as the guarantor.
Paul Guy has been at the club since 1995 and i will admit he is not the worlds greatest football fan but his support of the club in times of need cannot be questioned.

£1.2 million? First I've heard of that. I thought they brought the land at a knock down price.

But who told you that they had bought it for a knock down price? Was it someone with a vested interest in making PMG look bad and a certain othher individual (possibly of Lebanese extraction) look good?

There is no doubt that full market price was paid. The value paid was set by Cardiff Council after receiving an independent professional valuation which they (not PMG) commissioned. Its all evidenced in the Council minutes which are available on their website for public viewing.

Keith

Read it on a messageboard. You should not believe everything you read on the internet hey?

Paul Guy can smell money, he can smell a good deal, and has probably been offered a pretty good
one. But I do not think for one second that Vincent Tan would do a single thing that would threaten
his investment. So I am taking the positives from this

Paul Guy can smell money, he can smell a good deal, and has probably been offered a pretty good
one. But I do not think for one second that Vincent Tan would do a single thing that would threaten
his investment. So I am taking the positives from this

PMG wanted all their monies returned on promotion. The Malaysians failed to gain it. No financial gains . PMG no choice - don't make them saviours just trying to protect their money . Club ends up with another idiot on the board.

To me this smacks of "no news" it could mean that they see a long term future and thus the shares have value or it could mean a short term "get out" as good as you cam scenario wherey they agree a reduced gauranteed payment which may cover outlay whilst gamlbling on the eventuality that the remainder of they're debt pays in the long term. Either way for us the supporter it is probably a plus as it keeps the wolf from the door in terms of delaying liailities.

To me this smacks of "no news" it could mean that they see a long term future and thus the shares have value or it could mean a short term "get out" as good as you cam scenario wherey they agree a reduced gauranteed payment which may cover outlay whilst gamlbling on the eventuality that the remainder of they're debt pays in the long term. Either way for us the supporter it is probably a plus as it keeps the wolf from the door in terms of delaying liailities.

One other thing, if PMG increase they're shareholding that surely stands to reason that the malaysians dilute there's thus limiting liability on there side? Thats not encouraging. Maye I'm wrong can anyone clarify?

Paul Guy can smell money, he can smell a good deal, and has probably been offered a pretty good
one. But I do not think for one second that Vincent Tan would do a single thing that would threaten
his investment. So I am taking the positives from this

PMG wanted all their monies returned on promotion. The Malaysians failed to gain it. No financial gains . PMG no choice - don't make them saviours just trying to protect their money . Club ends up with another idiot on the board.

Converting part of the debt into shares, is that securing their money? Shares can go down as well as up. The debt was secured was it not. Saying that securing it against the players where their values can go up and down just as much as shares.

Paul Guy can smell money, he can smell a good deal, and has probably been offered a pretty good
one. But I do not think for one second that Vincent Tan would do a single thing that would threaten
his investment. So I am taking the positives from this

PMG wanted all their monies returned on promotion. The Malaysians failed to gain it. No financial gains . PMG no choice - don't make them saviours just trying to protect their money . Club ends up with another idiot on the board.

Converting part of the debt into shares, is that securing their money? Shares can go down as well as up. The debt was secured was it not. Saying that securing it against the players where their values can go up and down just as much as shares.

No it doesn't secure their money, however Daya may be right, it increases their influence (by having MH on the board), also ovr £2.7m of it (and we don't know IF/HOW MUCH ore it was) they didnt have any chance as they had agreed to it last May, and in May they WERE forced into it to a certain extent.

Its good news, but only time will tell if its significant or not. The Langston issue is much more important.

To me this smacks of "no news" it could mean that they see a long term future and thus the shares have value or it could mean a short term "get out" as good as you cam scenario wherey they agree a reduced gauranteed payment which may cover outlay whilst gamlbling on the eventuality that the remainder of they're debt pays in the long term. Either way for us the supporter it is probably a plus as it keeps the wolf from the door in terms of delaying liailities.

One other thing, if PMG increase they're shareholding that surely stands to reason that the malaysians dilute there's thus limiting liability on there side? Thats not encouraging. Maye I'm wrong can anyone clarify?

At the moment the Malaysians liability is restricted to their loans and 6m of shares. The pMG thing doesn't reduce that, although it now means the board is split 50/50 between Taffs and Malaysians.

Sorry but I'm uncomfortable about this. PMG never came to us when the tax man came calling. Not long ago they were calling for their money, now they are buying shares in the club. Something is going on and I'm struggling to beleive it is for the benefit of the club.

in february 2010 pmg paid a total of 1.2 million to the tax man bearing in mind the fact that ridsdale had just pocketed the golden ticket money the month previous..
they along with steve borley then bought land around the stadium at the full market value and the proceeds of that sale went to pay further amounts of tax money owed
why dont some of you start looking at the real villian of the piece here and thats peter ridsdale.
Him along with Jones seem to get away with murder because of our losing wembley appearances.
The fact that those two were spending ridiculous amounts of money on players wages whilst drawing nearly 2 million in wages and expenses themselves seem to pass you all by and never at any stage did they try and reduce the debt hanging around the clubs neck.
Only ridsdale could sign a crippled fowler and brag about shirt sales when in fact all the profits on those shirts went to Joma who owned the club shop at the time.
It was ridsdales reckless spending that has ruined sams chance of getting his money back.he is the man who mortgaged our players to ray ransom.
He had the club in so much debt that they could not loan the money from any financial institution to complete the stadium project.
I dont know if people are aware of it but it was the council who held the monies until the initial base build was complete otherwise who knows what type of goldfish that money would have been spent on.
Paul guy loaned the missing nine million to the club from the principality and still stands as the guarantor.
Paul Guy has been at the club since 1995 and i will admit he is not the worlds greatest football fan but his support of the club in times of need cannot be questioned.

Steve, should we read anything into Mike Hall rejoining the board ? I am thinking of the fact that he stood down from the board at the time of the legal action with Langston/Sam. Has he rejoined because they think the agreement with Langston is nto robust (To use a Ridsdaleism !).

mike hall did not step down because of anything to do with a legal issue with langston
mike hall stepped down during the time when pmg and steve borley were going to buy the land to pay off the tax bill.
with mike hall being a director of pmg there was an obvious conflict of linterest as if you remember the sale of the land had to be ratified by shareholders at an EGM

All I will say is that PMG certainly did very well out of all the land etc surrounding our ground, but Our Football Club did not benefit out of it in my opinion.

Paul Guy can smell money, he can smell a good deal, and has probably been offered a pretty good
one. But I do not think for one second that Vincent Tan would do a single thing that would threaten
his investment. So I am taking the positives from this

PMG wanted all their monies returned on promotion. The Malaysians failed to gain it. No financial gains . PMG no choice - don't make them saviours just trying to protect their money . Club ends up with another idiot on the board.

not strictly true though steve is it pmg had an agreement to have final settlement by 2013.
and of course pmg are trying to protect their money.
your a businessman the same as me what part of pmg's strategy would you or i not be doing if we were in the same boat.

All I will say is that PMG certainly did very well out of all the land etc surrounding our ground, but Our Football Club did not benefit out of it in my opinion.

annis
since they bought the land though it has just sat there undeveloped.
so he bought a piece of land that he probably did not need to buy to give the club money to pay the tax bill.
so the club benefited by having the money to pay the tax bill or face liquidation.
but once again pmg is the focus of all your attention whilst the riddler and jones who were responsible for the enormous tax bills due to the ridiculous wages being paid escape any scrutiny because the wembley appearances glossed over the fact that the debt they were building up was driving the club close to liquidation.

All I will say is that PMG certainly did very well out of all the land etc surrounding our ground, but Our Football Club did not benefit out of it in my opinion.

annis
since they bought the land though it has just sat there undeveloped.
so he bought a piece of land that he probably did not need to buy to give the club money to pay the tax bill.
so the club benefited by having the money to pay the tax bill or face liquidation.
but once again pmg is the focus of all your attention whilst the riddler and jones who were responsible for the enormous tax bills due to the ridiculous wages being paid escape any scrutiny because the wembley appearances glossed over the fact that the debt they were building up was driving the club close to liquidation.

The Riddler and Jones dont escape any scrutiny. It has been mentioned many times the budget they worked with compared to other clubs, specially the ones that got promoted. In fairness to Annis he is the one that has been banging on about this.

All I will say is that PMG certainly did very well out of all the land etc surrounding our ground, but Our Football Club did not benefit out of it in my opinion.

annis
since they bought the land though it has just sat there undeveloped.
so he bought a piece of land that he probably did not need to buy to give the club money to pay the tax bill.
so the club benefited by having the money to pay the tax bill or face liquidation.
but once again pmg is the focus of all your attention whilst the riddler and jones who were responsible for the enormous tax bills due to the ridiculous wages being paid escape any scrutiny because the wembley appearances glossed over the fact that the debt they were building up was driving the club close to liquidation.

Steve, Ridsdale and Jones were like twins in their Vulture of Cardiff City, I for one and you should No this more than anyone, Blame them most more than any other persons for Stripping our Club Bare naked.

All I will say is that PMG certainly did very well out of all the land etc surrounding our ground, but Our Football Club did not benefit out of it in my opinion.

annis
since they bought the land though it has just sat there undeveloped.
so he bought a piece of land that he probably did not need to buy to give the club money to pay the tax bill.
so the club benefited by having the money to pay the tax bill or face liquidation.
but once again pmg is the focus of all your attention whilst the riddler and jones who were responsible for the enormous tax bills due to the ridiculous wages being paid escape any scrutiny because the wembley appearances glossed over the fact that the debt they were building up was driving the club close to liquidation.

Steve, Ridsdale and Jones were like twins in their Vulture of Cardiff City, I for one and you should No this more than anyone, Blame them most more than any other persons for Stripping our Club Bare naked.

annis

we have our differences over pmg but on this issue and the fact that jones should have gone after the play off defeat we are like siamese twins

annis

we have our differences over pmg but on this issue and the fact that jones should have gone after the play off defeat we are like siamese twins


Dave Jones should of gone after 6 nil defeat at Preston, 3 nil at home to Ipswich and one nil loss at Sheff Wed .
You and I should of been able to been the ones who gave him his notice.


Yes Steve, we have plenty of chats away from this Forum and I respect what you always say, PMG Fantastic Business, Paul Guy my utmost Respect but away from Football.

Sorry but I'm uncomfortable about this. PMG never came to us when the tax man came calling. Not long ago they were calling for their money, now they are buying shares in the club. Something is going on and I'm struggling to beleive it is for the benefit of the club.

Ian, if it wasn't for PMG we wouldn't have a new stadium, they were the catalists who brought in the retail tennants which were crucial for the stadium development to get under way, not forgetting the money they also pumped into the club. What PMG did is no different to what Sam did to the club.

I don't see why they are always made out to be the bad guys.