Simon Davies

On hearing that Simon Davies is the latest player to retire from the international scene, I can't help but being more than a little suspicious. Is it any coincidence that Davies, a proud Welshman and previously commited international, announces his retirement so soon after Mark Hughes' appointment as his club manger?
Davies is still only 30 so had a good few years left. This retirement is a genuine surprise, is it a case of Hughes simply not letting go of his personal grievances with Toshask, very disappointing.

Will anyone notice Davies not playing?

I think we'll notice his absence, we're not overflowing with talent. Foe me it's more about the signal it sends out, he's carried a lot of injuries lately but could always be relied upon when fit. As an experienced international I think he'll be missed. It's Hughes' potential for negative influence that sets me thinking.
We should be used to it but 'que sera', 'onwards and upwards', 'one day in my lifetime we'll qualify' etc etc

"When fit".

Which has been never recently.

When he did play, he was anonymous.

No big loss.

I'm not surprised he's retired. He's never fit for us these days and we need to build our team on players who play all the time, or at least in the high 90% of games. We never seem to get the luck these days though, either with the amount of key players injured or for the draws we have for tournaments

He's stated on a numerous times how he dislikes the way Toshack plays and the position he plays him in and how the formation doesn't get the team playing good football like it's capable of

I'm not suprised, it'd been lingering for the last 2 years, nothing to do with Hughes

Well, Davies can f**k off then.

If he really thinks 4-5-1, everyone defend deep and hope to hit on the break is a viable tactic in international football, he's an absolute idiot.

It achieved us ONE good year surrounded by some of the worst years we've ever had.

Any idiot can see Tosh is at least *trying* to get them passing the ball. Hughes ( and indeed managers prior to him ) relied upon parking the bus, using the long ball.

Why would Hughes actively seek to stop a player playing for his country, regardless of who's coach at the time? A country he proudly served both as a player and as a coach for a good many years. What would you say to him if you were in Davies' shoes (or boots)? I know what I'd say

Well, Davies can f**k off then.

If he really thinks 4-5-1, everyone defend deep and hope to hit on the break is a viable tactic in international football, he's an absolute idiot.

It achieved us ONE good year surrounded by some of the worst years we've ever had.

Any idiot can see Tosh is at least *trying* to get them passing the ball. Hughes ( and indeed managers prior to him ) relied upon parking the bus, using the long ball.

I'm confident most genuine Wales supporters would agree with this 100%, well said! I'm now over my intial disappointment! Onwards and upwards.....

Why would Hughes actively seek to stop a player playing for his country, regardless of who's coach at the time? A country he proudly served both as a player and as a coach for a good many years. What would you say to him if you were in Davies' shoes (or boots)? I know what I'd say

Hughes would probably say "club or country.Your choice if you want to play regularly in the Prem".

Hughes "proudly" served Wales as coach by f***ing off to the first prem team showing an interest, but didn't leave immediately. No, he wanted to manage a few more games so he could manage versus England. And of course, by ballsing the first three games up killed any chance we had of qualifying the first qualifying under Toshack.

Why would Hughes actively seek to stop a player playing for his country, regardless of who's coach at the time? A country he proudly served both as a player and as a coach for a good many years. What would you say to him if you were in Davies' shoes (or boots)? I know what I'd say

Hughes would probably say "club or country.Your choice if you want to play regularly in the Prem".

Hughes "proudly" served Wales as coach by f***ing off to the first prem team showing an interest, but didn't leave immediately. No, he wanted to manage a few more games so he could manage versus England. And of course, by ballsing the first three games up killed any chance we had of qualifying the first qualifying under Toshack.

And you think that, on past records, Toshack would have qualified anyway? I don't and there's absolutley no evidence to the contrary. And, personally, I don't balme Hughes for going to Blackburn. It's called ambition. Do you seriously think that Davies will be playing regularly in the Premiership, given his age and injury record? No manager will promise anyone guaranteed regular first team football, especially Davies

We're about to embark on a new campaign and still people view Hughes' record with rose tinted specs. He royally fecked it up and let his ego deprive us of one of our best ever opportunities of qualifying. I admired Hughes as a player and thought he was harshly treated at Man City but his latter years as Wales coach and constant negative influence since has been difficult to stomach.
Toshack has actually done quite well considering the circumstances in which he's had to operate but it will soon be time for him to step aside, we all know he wants another crack at the Saes.

I haven't read anyone on here viewing Hughes' reign with rose-tinted specs. Most people are pretty realistic about how he performed. Bad start, a purple patch in the middle, then finished badly. What helped Hughes was a big win against a big country. If he hadn't had that italian result, it's unlikely we would have got anything like the crowds we subsequently got. Toshack needs the same kind of result and, maybe just maybe, the crowds will come back along with the performances a result like that can help bring. I do think Toshack needs to change his formation though

Why would Hughes actively seek to stop a player playing for his country, regardless of who's coach at the time? A country he proudly served both as a player and as a coach for a good many years. What would you say to him if you were in Davies' shoes (or boots)? I know what I'd say

Hughes would probably say "club or country.Your choice if you want to play regularly in the Prem".

Hughes "proudly" served Wales as coach by f***ing off to the first prem team showing an interest, but didn't leave immediately. No, he wanted to manage a few more games so he could manage versus England. And of course, by ballsing the first three games up killed any chance we had of qualifying the first qualifying under Toshack.

And you think that, on past records, Toshack would have qualified anyway? I don't and there's absolutley no evidence to the contrary. And, personally, I don't balme Hughes for going to Blackburn. It's called ambition. Do you seriously think that Davies will be playing regularly in the Premiership, given his age and injury record? No manager will promise anyone guaranteed regular first team football, especially Davies

No, but bolloxing up games for the sole reason Hughes wanted the big England game is hardly showing lurve for your country.

I've no problem with him going to Blackburn. I've a problem with him going to Blackburn but wanting to stay on for the big England game for the sole reason of ego.

Davies knows the youngsters coming through are capable of playing better. Davies knows, with his injuries, playing Prem and Internationally will be a problem. of course he hasn't been guaranteed Prem football - although given Hughes loves his favourites, wouldn't surprise me. I've zero doubt he was told to make a choice.

I don't think Hughes bollocksed up any games intentionally. We were in a rut, results-wise, and he just dodn't have the nous, or a Plan-B, to get out of that rut

With Toshack in charge, the only thing that surprises me is that there's any Welshmen left out there who haven't retired.

We've seen a plethora of players retire, it generally began for the mid 30's which was more understandable, before those in their early 30's began doing so. That has dropped alarmingly to those around the 30 mark and even those in their late 20's, how long before someone like Bale, Ramsey, Evans etc decides they don't want to be a part of international football any more? While player retirements are not exclusively Wales problem, for once we certainly are showing the way. It's an easy blueprint for success, pick a contankerous old dinosaur as manager and let him do what he does best; piss people off and make unfathomable decisions time after time.

I don't think Hughes bollocksed up any games intentionally. We were in a rut, results-wise, and he just dodn't have the nous, or a Plan-B, to get out of that rut

Quite.

But, you're a player, you see your managers mind is elsewhere. Rather than giving Tosh the entire campaign, instead Hughes presided over some poor performances and results due to no other reason than wanting to manage the England game. The FAW bowed into the demands of a "legend" when they should have had the backbone to replace when he took up the Blackburn job.

I was rweading an interview with Frank Lampard on the weekend saying how he feels refreshed palying for Chelsea after the World Cup. Reading between the lines, he doesn't really enjoy playing for England and almost as if he doesn't want to anymore but it seems that he likes the kudos of it all, which to me is a disgraceful situation.

With Toshack in charge, the only thing that surprises me is that there's any Welshmen left out there who haven't retired.

We've seen a plethora of players retire, it generally began for the mid 30's which was more understandable, before those in their early 30's began doing so. That has dropped alarmingly to those around the 30 mark and even those in their late 20's, how long before someone like Bale, Ramsey, Evans etc decides they don't want to be a part of international football any more? While player retirements are not exclusively Wales problem, for once we certainly are showing the way. It's an easy blueprint for success, pick a contankerous old dinosaur as manager and let him do what he does best; piss people off and make unfathomable decisions time after time.

How many of those 30 yr olds going have been a massive blow? Giggs was somewhat inevitable. Savage in his autobiography proves his calibre as a person. His complaining about plantains ( which are actually better for footballers than the pasta Savage wanted ) led him to go to a service station to pick up sweets and crisps, dispersed to the younger players. Some leader there.

Bellamy was outspoken about Toshack being appointed. Bellamy buckled down, has worked his socks off.

The rest were all players who, at international level, have failed. Basing the future upon them, well... let's be perfectly honest, the young guns that have come win would have replaced them eventually. They've probably gone into the squad before they were ready, but have gained valuable experience.

It's somewhat ironic people here maon about players being pampered at domestic level, yet when Tosh stands up to some fevered egos, there are complaints!

Agree to an extent with your last comment, Nerd, but alas that is the reality of modern day footballers and needs to be managed. Unfortunately, it is abundantly clear Toshack is incapable of displaying the modern day management sills that are required, quite aside from displaying the necessary tactical acumen which is often equally shocking.

Posted this a while back;

"Here follows Toshack's record in competitive matches, most recent first;

2010 WCQ;

Lichenstein 0 Wales 2
Finland 2 Wales 1
Wales 1 Russia 3
Azerbaijan 0 Wales 1
Wales 0 Germany 2
Wales 0 Finland 2
Germany 1 Wales 0
Wales 2 Lichenstein 0
Russia 2 Wales 0
Wales 1 Azerbaijan 0

What sticks out there is we only managed 2 goals in 2 games against Azerbaijan and only 4 over 2 games against Lichenstein. We failed to take even a point off the top 3.

2008 ECQ;

Germany 0 Wales 0
Wales 2 RoI 2
San Marino 1 Wales 2
Cyprus 3 Wales 1
Slovakia 2 Wales 5
Wales 0 Germany 2
Wales 0 Czech Rep 0
Wales 3 San Marino 0
RoI 1 Wales 0
Wales 3 Cyprus 1
Wales 1 Slovakia 5
Czech Rep 2 Wales 1

2006 WCQ;

Wales 2 Azerbaijan 0
Northern Ireland 2 Wales 3
Poland 1 Wales 0
Wales 0 England 1
Austria 1 Wales 0
Wales 0 Austria 2
Wales 2 Poland 3
England 2 Wales 0
Wales 2 Northern Ireland 2
Azerbaijan 1 Wales 1

Overall that makes;

Played 32
Won 10
Drawn 5
Lost 17
Scored 36
Conceded 46

Of the 10 wins, Northern Ireland & Slovakia are the only ones of note, and they are hardly inspiring, the others coming against Lichenstein x 2, Azerbaijan x 3, San Marino x 2 & Cyprus. Embarassingly, San Marino actually managed to score against us, whilst an away draw to Azerbaijan is another source of humiliation, even by our standards. Home and away defeats to the likes of Finland & Austria are accepted as the norm. In 4 games against Azerbaijan we have managed 3 wins and a draw, only scoring 5 goals in the process.

The conclusion to which the irrefutable evidence points is that we are only guaranteed wins against the out and out minnows such as Lichenstein & San Marino, pot 6 teams, albeit narrowly and unconvincingly at times. That could change however. The next level up, teams such as Azerbaijan are capable of being tough to beat and even taking points off us. Next level teams such as Finland, Slovakia, Northern Ireland, Cyprus & Austria at least hold their own and more often than not hold the ascendency. Our overall record against such teams proves this unequivocally.

Level 2 sides such as RoI, Czech Republic & Poland has all but 2 games out of 6 resulting in defeat, 2 points from a possible 18. Level 1 sides, Germany twice, Russia & England, has yielded 1 draw from 6 matches. 3 points from a possible 36 against the top 2 teams!

So, we have consistently proved we are a 4th pot team who occassionally has trouble beating sides below us and almost never takes points off teams above us. Now I'm not expecting anything other than third place, qualification would indeed be unrealistic, though a challenge not impossible, but if you honestly believe a country with our resources is this bad then I'm truly lost for words."

Additionally to his abysmal record, the player base, be it rightly or wrongly, has been absolutely decimated during his tenure. And some people have the audacity to defend him...

Sorry Nerd, as for those who have retired that may have made a difference, given the resources at our disposal, Wales are not well placed to lessen the player pool we have to choose from in the first place at all, the whole concept should be to increase it, not the other way around!

Agree to an extent with your last comment, Nerd, but alas that is the reality of modern day footballers and needs to be managed. Unfortunately, it is abundantly clear Toshack is incapable of displaying the modern day management sills that are required, quite aside from displaying the necessary tactical acumen which is often equally shocking.

Yet some of the younger players reportedly like playing under him.

The differing approaches of Bellamy and Savage tell you more about the character of the players being a deciding factor. Savage went out of his way to be a disruptive c**t. No place at any club for those kind of actions, national level the same applies.

Tactically, he's done what he's had to do, at times, with the players he's had available. With inexperienced youngsters, you need to be more defensive at first. He's got the side to concentrate on keeping possession, passing the ball. Formation has evolved over time, with the emergence of players like Ramsey.

Let's not forget Tosh has managed some of the biggest clubs in Europe, and had many firefighting issues. Real Madrid - brought in to turn the dressing room around, got rid a lot of the cancers, Real turned themselves around.

We're in a better state, player wise than we have been for a long time. The quality is better; the available player pool larger. It'll always be a big ask for us to qualify, but whoever takes over from Toshack will inherit Wales in a better state than he found it.

Sorry Nerd, as for those who have retired that may have made a difference, given the resources at our disposal, Wales are not well placed to lessen the player pool we have to choose from in the first place at all, the whole concept should be to increase it, not the other way around!

The point is, you can't solely blame Toshack for that.

Take Danny Collins. Withdrew with an "injury" only to play that weekend. Given a second chance, repeated same trick. How far do you go with given players more chances?

Sorry Nerd, as for those who have retired that may have made a difference, given the resources at our disposal, Wales are not well placed to lessen the player pool we have to choose from in the first place at all, the whole concept should be to increase it, not the other way around!

The point is, you can't solely blame Toshack for that.

Take Danny Collins. Withdrew with an "injury" only to play that weekend. Given a second chance, repeated same trick. How far do you go with given players more chances?

But then, he also drops experienced players for no reason. Anyone know why John Oster has never, or is rarely, given a chance under Toshack?

@Salad

Yet Tosh achieved more points than Hughes did, with those now retired players, early on.

We've had to go with youngsters who are inexperienced at domestic level. We've problem areas - a centre forward able to hold the ball up for one.

I hate the "lesser" nations argument. it's something the English based media use in a patronising manner - there are no easy games at international level these days, teams are far, far more organised. The youngsters lack the experience at times to deal with that.

The Scotland game showed a lot of promise for our young squad. Maybe the corner has been turned. Who knows?

But then, he also drops experienced players for no reason. Anyone know why John Oster has never, or is rarely, given a chance under Toshack?

Oster has had chances in the past, flattered to deceive. Play Oster or give a youngster the chance to step up - Oster at 32 isn't a liong term solution, given he's also had injuries.

I don't disagree with much of what you say Nerd and the morale fibre of certain players is astonishingly poor, Koumas being one. Collins is another that you rightly allude to, whilst we all know about Savage. Of course there are many others too. However the facts are there for all to see, the huge volume of retired players surely shows that either Toshack is very unlucky for it to suddenly happen on such a massive scale on his watch or he's a bit of a cock. Given we have resources equal to or arguably better than many other nations who are competitive such as Northern Ireland for example, if in any doubt about Toshack's credentials, I refer you and anyone else to his record above.

I don't disagree with much of what you say Nerd and the morale fibre of certain players is astonishingly poor, Koumas being one. Collins is another that you rightly allude to, whilst we all know about Savage. Of course there are many others too. However the facts are there for all to see, the huge volume of retired players surely shows that either Toshack is very unlucky for it to suddenly happen on such a massive scale on his watch or he's a bit of a cock. Given we have resources equal to or arguably better than many other nations who are competitive such as Northern Ireland for example, if in any doubt about Toshack's credentials, I refer you and anyone else to his record above.

The other option is that players like Fletcher, Robinson see the writing on the wall and retire before they get replaced.

N Ireland have experienced players - Capaldi, Feeney et al. We've still got the situation of players who are at best fringe players.

The Scotland formation and performance was pretty impressive. Let's see what happens this qualifying - especially if Rambo gets back to top form, because it's clear he's pivotal to the team, pivotal with or without Tosh being involved.

N Ireland have experienced players - Capaldi, Feeney et al. We've still got the situation of players who are at best fringe players.

Capaldi and Feeney aren't fringe players? Sorry, Nerd, I don't follow this argument