COMMENT: THE LATEST ON CLUB'S DEBT...

From Keith Morgan...

"The most recent filed accounts are those for the year ended 31 May 2018,our promotion season. That year, despite making a big trading loss (largely down to promotion bonuses paid) the club’s overall net liabilities were greatly reduced from around £80m to below £11m at the year end. This was down to two main factors,an upwards revaluation of the football stadium and a big conversion of the debt due to Vincent Tan into non-repayable shares. So yes, I was pretty happy with the level of our debts then as they were considerably lower than most of our rivals at Championship level.

The May 2019 accounts have not been published and I have not yet had the opportunity of doing my usual pre- publication review of them. However, I expect to see a substantial trading profit for that year to further improve the net liability position. Until I see the accounts I have no idea if VT did further debt write offs or debt to equity conversions in the year but, if he did, the gross debt due to him will also have come down. ."

Well that sounds good to me as much as I'll always take a pop at VT for the red kit to be fair he did promise to turn debt to equity over time .so hes good to his word there .
Not sure how the shares thing effects the club but at least the debt has come way down .
What do the shares mean can he cash in on them hence us owing him back all the money at some point how does it work then ?

Well that sounds good to me as much as I'll always take a pop at VT for the red kit to be fair he did promise to turn debt to equity over time .so hes good to his word there .
Not sure how the shares thing effects the club but at least the debt has come way down .
What do the shares mean can he cash in on them hence us owing him back all the money at some point how does it work then ?

Someone has to buy the shares for a said price

Well that sounds good to me as much as I'll always take a pop at VT for the red kit to be fair he did promise to turn debt to equity over time .so hes good to his word there .
Not sure how the shares thing effects the club but at least the debt has come way down .
What do the shares mean can he cash in on them hence us owing him back all the money at some point how does it work then ?

Someone has to buy the shares for a said price

Because he as all the shares or most he can sell club for whatever amount he desires I assume? If he gets what hes put in fine but maybe he'll take a hit just to get rid of us!

Well that sounds good to me as much as I'll always take a pop at VT for the red kit to be fair he did promise to turn debt to equity over time .so hes good to his word there .
Not sure how the shares thing effects the club but at least the debt has come way down .
What do the shares mean can he cash in on them hence us owing him back all the money at some point how does it work then ?

Someone has to buy the shares for a said price

Because he as all the shares or most he can sell club for whatever amount he desires I assume? If he gets what hes put in fine but maybe he'll take a hit just to get rid of us!

Dont suppose Tan had a choice really couldn't run a business with debt like that .
Will have to take a big hit to move it on then .
At least for now the accounts read good .

Well that sounds good to me as much as I'll always take a pop at VT for the red kit to be fair he did promise to turn debt to equity over time .so hes good to his word there .
Not sure how the shares thing effects the club but at least the debt has come way down .
What do the shares mean can he cash in on them hence us owing him back all the money at some point how does it work then ?

Someone has to buy the shares for a said price

Because he as all the shares or most he can sell club for whatever amount he desires I assume? If he gets what hes put in fine but maybe he'll take a hit just to get rid of us!

Dont suppose Tan had a choice really couldn't run a business with debt like that .
Will have to take a big hit to move it on then .
At least for now the accounts read good .

I think our club is worth 100m plus if its debt free

Well that sounds good to me as much as I'll always take a pop at VT for the red kit to be fair he did promise to turn debt to equity over time .so hes good to his word there .
Not sure how the shares thing effects the club but at least the debt has come way down .
What do the shares mean can he cash in on them hence us owing him back all the money at some point how does it work then ?

Someone has to buy the shares for a said price

Because he as all the shares or most he can sell club for whatever amount he desires I assume? If he gets what hes put in fine but maybe he'll take a hit just to get rid of us!

Dont suppose Tan had a choice really couldn't run a business with debt like that .
Will have to take a big hit to move it on then .
At least for now the accounts read good .

I think our club is worth 100m plus if its debt free

Not even close.

In the Premier League maybe.

Is Keith able to let us know how much of this was down to the upward revaluation of the stadium please?

What was its value previously and what value has it in increased to now?

Such figures are largely academic but it would be interesting to know nonetheless.

Is Keith able to let us know how much of this was down to the upward revaluation of the stadium please?

What was its value previously and what value has it in increased to now?

Such figures are largely academic but it would be interesting to know nonetheless.

I also would like to know our stadiums current value as i believe it is now one of the best facility wise in the top two divisions. In the Premier League season I visited 18 of the so called top clubs grounds and wasn't impressed.We should be so thankful we have our C.C.S. as it puts a lot of the bigger clubs grounds to shame.

Once again Mr Tan true to his word, Thank you Mr Tan

Always got time for a man who can admit and rectify his mistakes and it's nice to see the club being run like a business as some of us folk can remember the very bad old days when we had to more or less give players away just to stay afloat!!

As long as we're not valuing the stadium as per Derby?!

Well that sounds good to me as much as I'll always take a pop at VT for the red kit to be fair he did promise to turn debt to equity over time .so hes good to his word there .
Not sure how the shares thing effects the club but at least the debt has come way down .
What do the shares mean can he cash in on them hence us owing him back all the money at some point how does it work then ?

Someone has to buy the shares for a said price

Because he as all the shares or most he can sell club for whatever amount he desires I assume? If he gets what hes put in fine but maybe he'll take a hit just to get rid of us!

Dont suppose Tan had a choice really couldn't run a business with debt like that .
Will have to take a big hit to move it on then .
At least for now the accounts read good .

I think our club is worth 100m plus if its debt free

Not even close.

In the Premier League maybe.

Why not? if our club is debt free its worth a lot more, stadium alone is worth 60 million at least

A big plus is owning your own stadium .
Just look at Coventry all them years in the top division, but the biggest mistake they made is. Not buying their stadium. Now they share with Birmingham !
You would think that any team after a few years in the top division (especially teams that were in the PL) would own their own stadium as a priority.
But a lot of owners are just in it for the money they can make.
Thankfully we have Vincent Tan at the moment.

The "value" of the stadium is academic. Only us, Cardiff Blues, the FAW or a buyer looking to lease back to one of the above is a woukd be owner. Any sale involving a leaseback is disastrous and value entirely dependant on how much "rent" tenant pays; it's a simple return of capital.

I'm interested to know how much more it's not valued at in our accounts as any increase is money Tan has not in fact put in or converted.

If it was valued at £30 miilion and that's now £60 million then VT has found a way of reducing debt without him contributing or converting. That may not be the case but we should be asking the question before saying how true to his word VT is

The "value" of the stadium is academic. Only us, Cardiff Blues, the FAW or a buyer looking to lease back to one of the above is a woukd be owner. Any sale involving a leaseback is disastrous and value entirely dependant on how much "rent" tenant pays; it's a simple return of capital.

I'm interested to know how much more it's not valued at in our accounts as any increase is money Tan has not in fact put in or converted.

If it was valued at £30 miilion and that's now £60 million then VT has found a way of reducing debt without him contributing or converting. That may not be the case but we should be asking the question before saying how true to his word VT is

Where is the stadium valued at 30 million ? You are speaking shite

The "value" of the stadium is academic. Only us, Cardiff Blues, the FAW or a buyer looking to lease back to one of the above is a woukd be owner. Any sale involving a leaseback is disastrous and value entirely dependant on how much "rent" tenant pays; it's a simple return of capital.

I'm interested to know how much more it's not valued at in our accounts as any increase is money Tan has not in fact put in or converted.

If it was valued at £30 miilion and that's now £60 million then VT has found a way of reducing debt without him contributing or converting. That may not be the case but we should be asking the question before saying how true to his word VT is

Where is the stadium valued at 30 million ? You are speaking shite

I don't know what the stadium value is in our accounts. £30 million was an entirely hypothetical figure. What is relevant is how much has now been added to its value. If Keith has that info which I imagine he does then it would be interesting to know.

Is Keith able to let us know how much of this was down to the upward revaluation of the stadium please?

What was its value previously and what value has it in increased to now?

Such figures are largely academic but it would be interesting to know nonetheless.

I also would like to know our stadiums current value as i believe it is now one of the best facility wise in the top two divisions. In the Premier League season I visited 18 of the so called top clubs grounds and wasn't impressed.We should be so thankful we have our C.C.S. as it puts a lot of the bigger clubs grounds to shame.

According to the accounts dated May 2018 the current book value of the stadium is £83.5m. The book value was £50.3m in May 2017 so the clubs balance sheet has somehow gained £33.2m (ask Keith62 why as I don't know the answer) and of course would make a significant dent in our overall debt.

The "value" of the stadium is academic. Only us, Cardiff Blues, the FAW or a buyer looking to lease back to one of the above is a woukd be owner. Any sale involving a leaseback is disastrous and value entirely dependant on how much "rent" tenant pays; it's a simple return of capital.

I'm interested to know how much more it's not valued at in our accounts as any increase is money Tan has not in fact put in or converted.

If it was valued at £30 miilion and that's now £60 million then VT has found a way of reducing debt without him contributing or converting. That may not be the case but we should be asking the question before saying how true to his word VT is

Where is the stadium valued at 30 million ? You are speaking shite

I don't know what the stadium value is in our accounts. £30 million was an entirely hypothetical figure. What is relevant is how much has now been added to its value. If Keith has that info which I imagine he does then it would be interesting to know.

The 2018 accounts state the book value of the stadium is £83.5m.

The "value" of the stadium is academic. Only us, Cardiff Blues, the FAW or a buyer looking to lease back to one of the above is a woukd be owner. Any sale involving a leaseback is disastrous and value entirely dependant on how much "rent" tenant pays; it's a simple return of capital.

I'm interested to know how much more it's not valued at in our accounts as any increase is money Tan has not in fact put in or converted.

If it was valued at £30 miilion and that's now £60 million then VT has found a way of reducing debt without him contributing or converting. That may not be the case but we should be asking the question before saying how true to his word VT is

Where is the stadium valued at 30 million ? You are speaking shite

I don't know what the stadium value is in our accounts. £30 million was an entirely hypothetical figure. What is relevant is how much has now been added to its value. If Keith has that info which I imagine he does then it would be interesting to know.

In 2018 the stadium value was uplifted by £30m after a professional valuation undertaken which was signed off by the auditors.

Now it is important to note that this increase in £30m will mean net liabilities are reduced by £30m but this does not effect the amount of debt owed to Tan.

As in the 31 May 2018 accounts the debt still outstanding to Tan is £72m even though on the balance sheet net liabilities are only £11m.

It is also important to note that this £72m owed to tan has moved from long term liabilities to short term liabilities in the year ended 31/5/18. This suggests that it will be repaid (or converted to equity) within the next 12 months from that date. This indicates that as it stands today (as long as tan has not issued more loans to us) we should be debt free to VT.

Hope that makes sense

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The "value" of the stadium is academic. Only us, Cardiff Blues, the FAW or a buyer looking to lease back to one of the above is a woukd be owner. Any sale involving a leaseback is disastrous and value entirely dependant on how much "rent" tenant pays; it's a simple return of capital.

I'm interested to know how much more it's not valued at in our accounts as any increase is money Tan has not in fact put in or converted.

If it was valued at £30 miilion and that's now £60 million then VT has found a way of reducing debt without him contributing or converting. That may not be the case but we should be asking the question before saying how true to his word VT is

Where is the stadium valued at 30 million ? You are speaking shite

I don't know what the stadium value is in our accounts. £30 million was an entirely hypothetical figure. What is relevant is how much has now been added to its value. If Keith has that info which I imagine he does then it would be interesting to know.

In 2018 the stadium value was uplifted by £30m after a professional valuation undertaken which was signed off by the auditors.

Now it is important to note that this increase in £30m will mean net liabilities are reduced by £30m but this does not effect the amount of debt owed to Tan.

As in the 31 May 2018 accounts the debt still outstanding to Tan is £72m even though on the balance sheet net liabilities are only £11m.

It is also important to note that this £72m owed to tan has moved from long term liabilities to short term liabilities in the year ended 31/5/18. This suggests that it will be repaid (or converted to equity) within the next 12 months from that date. This indicates that as it stands today (as long as tan has not issued more loans to us) we should be debt free to VT.

Hope that makes sense

What is in accruals and deferred income? Seems very high. Presumably a large part is advanced season ticket sales but doubt if that can be more than £10 million. What is the rest? Anyone know?

Why not? if our club is debt free its worth a lot more, stadium alone is worth 60 million at least

Because the stadium cannot be realistically sold. The land it’s on is the value, not the stadium itself. Who would buy it? It’s an accounting technique and nothing more. The land is worth what, £15m tops? However even that may also have a caveat on it that is cannot be sold - or indeed if it is then the buyers are restricted to sporting purposes as the land was gifted by the council wasn’t it?

The company itself loses money, the fact it has no immediate debt is largely irrelevant. The fact VT has had to write off millions and continues to do so suggests the company isn’t really solvent and would soon be running at a loss that the new owners would have to cover as Tan is. So a Championship club that loses money, with minimal saleable assets and minimal non-parachute income cannot be worth anywhere near a PL club with income streams of over £100m+ p/a.

Current value of the club is probably somewhere between £35m and £40m.

Why not? if our club is debt free its worth a lot more, stadium alone is worth 60 million at least

Because the stadium cannot be realistically sold. The land it’s on is the value, not the stadium itself. Who would buy it? It’s an accounting technique and nothing more. The land is worth what, £15m tops? However even that may also have a caveat on it that is cannot be sold - or indeed if it is then the buyers are restricted to sporting purposes as the land was gifted by the council wasn’t it?

The company itself loses money, the fact it has no immediate debt is largely irrelevant. The fact VT has had to write off millions and continues to do so suggests the company isn’t really solvent and would soon be running at a loss that the new owners would have to cover as Tan is. So a Championship club that loses money, with minimal saleable assets and minimal non-parachute income cannot be worth anywhere near a PL club with income streams of over £100m+ p/a.

Current value of the club is probably somewhere between £35m and £40m.

Obsessed.

Why not? if our club is debt free its worth a lot more, stadium alone is worth 60 million at least

Because the stadium cannot be realistically sold. The land it’s on is the value, not the stadium itself. Who would buy it? It’s an accounting technique and nothing more. The land is worth what, £15m tops? However even that may also have a caveat on it that is cannot be sold - or indeed if it is then the buyers are restricted to sporting purposes as the land was gifted by the council wasn’t it?

The company itself loses money, the fact it has no immediate debt is largely irrelevant. The fact VT has had to write off millions and continues to do so suggests the company isn’t really solvent and would soon be running at a loss that the new owners would have to cover as Tan is. So a Championship club that loses money, with minimal saleable assets and minimal non-parachute income cannot be worth anywhere near a PL club with income streams of over £100m+ p/a.

Current value of the club is probably somewhere between £35m and £40m.

Obsessed.

No he is a expert on 92 football clubs finances he knows every last detail of what they are worth and of course he will always be right about info he gives this forum ..

Why not? if our club is debt free its worth a lot more, stadium alone is worth 60 million at least

Because the stadium cannot be realistically sold. The land it’s on is the value, not the stadium itself. Who would buy it? It’s an accounting technique and nothing more. The land is worth what, £15m tops? However even that may also have a caveat on it that is cannot be sold - or indeed if it is then the buyers are restricted to sporting purposes as the land was gifted by the council wasn’t it?

The company itself loses money, the fact it has no immediate debt is largely irrelevant. The fact VT has had to write off millions and continues to do so suggests the company isn’t really solvent and would soon be running at a loss that the new owners would have to cover as Tan is. So a Championship club that loses money, with minimal saleable assets and minimal non-parachute income cannot be worth anywhere near a PL club with income streams of over £100m+ p/a.

Current value of the club is probably somewhere between £35m and £40m.

The land is on a 150 year lease from the council

Why not? if our club is debt free its worth a lot more, stadium alone is worth 60 million at least

Because the stadium cannot be realistically sold. The land it’s on is the value, not the stadium itself. Who would buy it? It’s an accounting technique and nothing more. The land is worth what, £15m tops? However even that may also have a caveat on it that is cannot be sold - or indeed if it is then the buyers are restricted to sporting purposes as the land was gifted by the council wasn’t it?

The company itself loses money, the fact it has no immediate debt is largely irrelevant. The fact VT has had to write off millions and continues to do so suggests the company isn’t really solvent and would soon be running at a loss that the new owners would have to cover as Tan is. So a Championship club that loses money, with minimal saleable assets and minimal non-parachute income cannot be worth anywhere near a PL club with income streams of over £100m+ p/a.

Current value of the club is probably somewhere between £35m and £40m.

Talks out of his arse on a regular basis and always thinks hes right

The "value" of the stadium is academic. Only us, Cardiff Blues, the FAW or a buyer looking to lease back to one of the above is a woukd be owner. Any sale involving a leaseback is disastrous and value entirely dependant on how much "rent" tenant pays; it's a simple return of capital.

I'm interested to know how much more it's not valued at in our accounts as any increase is money Tan has not in fact put in or converted.

If it was valued at £30 miilion and that's now £60 million then VT has found a way of reducing debt without him contributing or converting. That may not be the case but we should be asking the question before saying how true to his word VT is

Where is the stadium valued at 30 million ? You are speaking shite

I don't know what the stadium value is in our accounts. £30 million was an entirely hypothetical figure. What is relevant is how much has now been added to its value. If Keith has that info which I imagine he does then it would be interesting to know.

In 2018 the stadium value was uplifted by £30m after a professional valuation undertaken which was signed off by the auditors.

Now it is important to note that this increase in £30m will mean net liabilities are reduced by £30m but this does not effect the amount of debt owed to Tan.

As in the 31 May 2018 accounts the debt still outstanding to Tan is £72m even though on the balance sheet net liabilities are only £11m.

It is also important to note that this £72m owed to tan has moved from long term liabilities to short term liabilities in the year ended 31/5/18. This suggests that it will be repaid (or converted to equity) within the next 12 months from that date. This indicates that as it stands today (as long as tan has not issued more loans to us) we should be debt free to VT.

Hope that makes sense

What is in accruals and deferred income? Seems very high. Presumably a large part is advanced season ticket sales but doubt if that can be more than £10 million. What is the rest? Anyone know?

I think £23m of that relates to unpaid bonuses for getting promoted

Why not? if our club is debt free its worth a lot more, stadium alone is worth 60 million at least

Because the stadium cannot be realistically sold. The land it’s on is the value, not the stadium itself. Who would buy it? It’s an accounting technique and nothing more. The land is worth what, £15m tops? However even that may also have a caveat on it that is cannot be sold - or indeed if it is then the buyers are restricted to sporting purposes as the land was gifted by the council wasn’t it?

The company itself loses money, the fact it has no immediate debt is largely irrelevant. The fact VT has had to write off millions and continues to do so suggests the company isn’t really solvent and would soon be running at a loss that the new owners would have to cover as Tan is. So a Championship club that loses money, with minimal saleable assets and minimal non-parachute income cannot be worth anywhere near a PL club with income streams of over £100m+ p/a.

Current value of the club is probably somewhere between £35m and £40m.

You are speaking absolute rubbish the stadium is owned by the club , doesn't matter about resale value it's still an asset on the books at around 60 million , if the club is debt free it makes it worth more , debt free , in profit with assets unlike swansea not having any assets other than a training ground which btw is UP for sale coz they are skint ! Our future parachute payments are more than 35 million , fair play you ain't got a clue roathy

Why not? if our club is debt free its worth a lot more, stadium alone is worth 60 million at least

Because the stadium cannot be realistically sold. The land it’s on is the value, not the stadium itself. Who would buy it? It’s an accounting technique and nothing more. The land is worth what, £15m tops? However even that may also have a caveat on it that is cannot be sold - or indeed if it is then the buyers are restricted to sporting purposes as the land was gifted by the council wasn’t it?

The company itself loses money, the fact it has no immediate debt is largely irrelevant. The fact VT has had to write off millions and continues to do so suggests the company isn’t really solvent and would soon be running at a loss that the new owners would have to cover as Tan is. So a Championship club that loses money, with minimal saleable assets and minimal non-parachute income cannot be worth anywhere near a PL club with income streams of over £100m+ p/a.

Current value of the club is probably somewhere between £35m and £40m.

The land is on a 150 year lease from the council

In which case the stadium is virtually worthless.

Why not? if our club is debt free its worth a lot more, stadium alone is worth 60 million at least

Because the stadium cannot be realistically sold. The land it’s on is the value, not the stadium itself. Who would buy it? It’s an accounting technique and nothing more. The land is worth what, £15m tops? However even that may also have a caveat on it that is cannot be sold - or indeed if it is then the buyers are restricted to sporting purposes as the land was gifted by the council wasn’t it?

The company itself loses money, the fact it has no immediate debt is largely irrelevant. The fact VT has had to write off millions and continues to do so suggests the company isn’t really solvent and would soon be running at a loss that the new owners would have to cover as Tan is. So a Championship club that loses money, with minimal saleable assets and minimal non-parachute income cannot be worth anywhere near a PL club with income streams of over £100m+ p/a.

Current value of the club is probably somewhere between £35m and £40m.

You are speaking absolute rubbish the stadium is owned by the club , doesn't matter about resale value it's still an asset on the books at around 60 million , if the club is debt free it makes it worth more , debt free , in profit with assets unlike swansea not having any assets other than a training ground which btw is UP for sale coz they are skint ! Our future parachute payments are more than 35 million , fair play you ain't got a clue roathy

“Worth”... to whom?

The only value a stadium has is its ability to be borrowed against and used as leverage, but that would only be a fraction of “book value” for the reasons I just stated. Whether the company has debt or not makes no difference to the “book value” of the stadium.

“Debt free” simply means that Tan has written off ongoing debts. The fact he has to, suggests the company is running at a loss. So that’s not debt free. Not even close.

Parachute payments are to cover a shortfall, not to be pocketed. Non parachute income is around £20m - £25m p/a, that’s peanuts. So if you consider that’s the companies turnover, which no saleable assets - my valuation is correct, if not generous.

Why not? if our club is debt free its worth a lot more, stadium alone is worth 60 million at least

Because the stadium cannot be realistically sold. The land it’s on is the value, not the stadium itself. Who would buy it? It’s an accounting technique and nothing more. The land is worth what, £15m tops? However even that may also have a caveat on it that is cannot be sold - or indeed if it is then the buyers are restricted to sporting purposes as the land was gifted by the council wasn’t it?

The company itself loses money, the fact it has no immediate debt is largely irrelevant. The fact VT has had to write off millions and continues to do so suggests the company isn’t really solvent and would soon be running at a loss that the new owners would have to cover as Tan is. So a Championship club that loses money, with minimal saleable assets and minimal non-parachute income cannot be worth anywhere near a PL club with income streams of over £100m+ p/a.

Current value of the club is probably somewhere between £35m and £40m.

Obsessed.

Just bored....probably always wanted to be a bluebird too