Radical Islam

joe public, why dont you take your bible into saudi and pop into the local church for a sing song then mate.

OH SORRY NO YOU CANT no bibles allowed, no churches built. their country their rules SIMPLE

Bullshit they were committing a crime of Racial hatred !! If the BNP said anything like that they would of been arrested on the spot. Was one BNP arrested for saying that Islam was a wicked faith ? He didn't threaten to kill anyone did he. The police don't operate a level playing field that's for sure. Those there were extremists with extremist views. They don't belong here that's for sure.

Perhaps in my defence of their right to freedom of speech i have been over enthusiastic and given the impression i actually support what they say. Which is not correct, but i defend their right to say it.

They have every bit as much right to say what they are saying as the EDL and BNP to say what they say. the EDL stood at the same location just a month ago and chanted Alah is a paedo - equally as offensive, if not more so, but none were nicked.

The EDL stood in Swansea Sieg Heiling and shouting paki go home, again, equally offensive, none arrested. Their comrades in the BNP (many support both) are constantly spouting racist filth and rarely get nicked. They do not belong in our society either.

Not sure why you think there is not an even playing field.

Belmarsh is full of Islamic Extremists, many of them not even charged, so to suggest the old bill do not take them seriously is a stretching it a bit.

Whilst those Muslims in Cardiff may have been offensive, the Cardiff fans going toe to toe with Chelsea on the king road were not just talking about violence, they were actually indulging it - so they were actually worse than the demo last week.

It all seems to be double standards. Those that you agree with are given the benefit of the doubt, those that you do not agree with should be deported (although to where we do not know).

Either ban them all or ban none of them. And if you are going to start banning people - where do you stop?

joe public, why dont you take your bible into saudi and pop into the local church for a sing song then mate.

OH SORRY NO YOU CANT no bibles allowed, no churches built. their country their rules SIMPLE

Bang on the head Chief not a lot to say to that is there

Bullshit they were committing a crime of Racial hatred !! If the BNP said anything like that they would of been arrested on the spot. Was one BNP arrested for saying that Islam was a wicked faith ? He didn't threaten to kill anyone did he. The police don't operate a level playing field that's for sure. Those there were extremists with extremist views. They don't belong here that's for sure.

Perhaps in my defence of their right to freedom of speech i have been over enthusiastic and given the impression i actually support what they say. Which is not correct, but i defend their right to say it.

They have every bit as much right to say what they are saying as the EDL and BNP to say what they say. the EDL stood at the same location just a month ago and chanted Allah is a paedo - equally as offensive, if not more so, but none were nicked.

The EDL stood in Swansea Sieg Heiling and shouting paki go home, again, equally offensive, none arrested. Their comrades in the BNP (many support both) are constantly spouting racist filth and rarely get nicked. They do not belong in our society either.

Not sure why you think there is not an even playing field.

Belmarsh is full of Islamic Extremists, many of them not even charged, so to suggest the old bill do not take them seriously is a stretching it a bit.

Whilst those Muslims in Cardiff may have been offensive, the Cardiff fans going toe to toe with Chelsea on the king road were not just talking about violence, they were actually indulging it - so they were actually worse than the demo last week.

It all seems to be double standards. Those that you agree with are given the benefit of the doubt, those that you do not agree with should be deported (although to where we do not know).

Either ban them all or ban none of them. And if you are going to start banning people - where do you stop?

But its our Country our rules. They clearly don't like the way we live. Fine if i cant stand the heat i get out of the kitchen. Why don't they emigrate or move back to a country which embraces there beliefs or move back to there country of origin. But don't threaten me don't threaten my family full stop.
As for Chelsea two sets of fans who wanted to have a row ! so what let them. If they attacked someone who was in the wrong place at the wrong time then i would have a problem.
Yes you are sticking up for those extremists that's for sure. I can see where you are coming from free speech and that but we don't have free speech any longer.

When a demonstration reverts to shout of "death to you" etc etc then that is abusing free speech.

'Islams coming back, UK watch your back'

How can the Police stand there and let them say that, thats threatening behaviour.

If id been there I would have demanded that the Police stopped it and if they didnt I would have steamed them myself.

Sorry, that is the bottom line of it, you can shove your freedom laws, that is taking the piss. I might be no better for using steaming into them but if the Police wont do anything, what are we supposed to do.

Thats why i want them out and i bet all on British benifits, How about we organise a march outside a mosque

'Islams coming back, UK watch your back'

How can the Police stand there and let them say that, thats threatening behaviour.

If id been there I would have demanded that the Police stopped it and if they didnt I would have steamed them myself.

Sorry, that is the bottom line of it, you can shove your freedom laws, that is taking the piss. I might be no better for using steaming into them but if the Police wont do anything, what are we supposed to do.

"UK watch your back".... yes, naughty. But no more naughty than "You're gonna get your f*cking head kicked in"

When a demonstration reverts to shout of "death to you" etc etc then that is abusing free speech.

As is "Allah is a paedo" or "Paki's go home". but the EDL/BNP seem to get away with it.

Bullshit they were committing a crime of Racial hatred !! If the BNP said anything like that they would of been arrested on the spot. Was one BNP arrested for saying that Islam was a wicked faith ? He didn't threaten to kill anyone did he. The police don't operate a level playing field that's for sure. Those there were extremists with extremist views. They don't belong here that's for sure.

Perhaps in my defence of their right to freedom of speech i have been over enthusiastic and given the impression i actually support what they say. Which is not correct, but i defend their right to say it.

They have every bit as much right to say what they are saying as the EDL and BNP to say what they say. the EDL stood at the same location just a month ago and chanted Allah is a paedo - equally as offensive, if not more so, but none were nicked.

The EDL stood in Swansea Sieg Heiling and shouting paki go home, again, equally offensive, none arrested. Their comrades in the BNP (many support both) are constantly spouting racist filth and rarely get nicked. They do not belong in our society either.

Not sure why you think there is not an even playing field.

Belmarsh is full of Islamic Extremists, many of them not even charged, so to suggest the old bill do not take them seriously is a stretching it a bit.

Whilst those Muslims in Cardiff may have been offensive, the Cardiff fans going toe to toe with Chelsea on the king road were not just talking about violence, they were actually indulging it - so they were actually worse than the demo last week.

It all seems to be double standards. Those that you agree with are given the benefit of the doubt, those that you do not agree with should be deported (although to where we do not know).

Either ban them all or ban none of them. And if you are going to start banning people - where do you stop?

But its our Country our rules. They clearly don't like the way we live. Fine if i cant stand the heat i get out of the kitchen. Why don't they emigrate or move back to a country which embraces there beliefs or move back to there country of origin. But don't threaten me don't threaten my family full stop.
As for Chelsea two sets of fans who wanted to have a row ! so what let them. If they attacked someone who was in the wrong place at the wrong time then i would have a problem.
Yes you are sticking up for those extremists that's for sure. I can see where you are coming from free speech and that but we don't have free speech any longer.

Our country is multicultuarl and tollerant. If the BNP or EDL dont like it then perhaps they should emigrate as well.

joe public, why dont you take your bible into saudi and pop into the local church for a sing song then mate.

OH SORRY NO YOU CANT no bibles allowed, no churches built. their country their rules SIMPLE

Bang on the head Chief not a lot to say to that is there

No, not a lot to say cos it has absoultely nothing what so ever to do with the subject being debated.

'Islams coming back, UK watch your back'

How can the Police stand there and let them say that, thats threatening behaviour.

If id been there I would have demanded that the Police stopped it and if they didnt I would have steamed them myself.

Sorry, that is the bottom line of it, you can shove your freedom laws, that is taking the piss. I might be no better for using steaming into them but if the Police wont do anything, what are we supposed to do.

"UK watch your back".... yes, naughty. But no more naughty than "You're gonna get your f*cking head kicked in"

I can pretty much guarantee you that if I walk around CCS shouting your gonna get your f*cking heads kicked in to away fans i would be nicked in seconds.

i can also guarantee you that if myself and 20 mates went to the exact same locations and started shouting no more mosques in wales, and Islam watch your back, welsh nationalists coming back, I would be nicked on a race relations charge and the other people would be nicked for threatening behaviour or something.

i think you will find it has everything to do with it.

its about your religion in your country and not having others rammed theirs down your throat, or even discussed, seeing as your in their country, you either tow the line or keep quiet.

When a demonstration reverts to shout of "death to you" etc etc then that is abusing free speech.

As is "Allah is a paedo" or "Paki's go home". but the EDL/BNP seem to get away with it.

Two wrongs dont make a right.

When a demonstration reverts to shout of "death to you" etc etc then that is abusing free speech.

As is "Allah is a paedo" or "Paki's go home". but the EDL/BNP seem to get away with it.

Two wrongs dont make a right.

Not saying they do, merely pointing out that if you allow one, you have to allow the other.

'Islams coming back, UK watch your back'

How can the Police stand there and let them say that, thats threatening behaviour.

If id been there I would have demanded that the Police stopped it and if they didnt I would have steamed them myself.

Sorry, that is the bottom line of it, you can shove your freedom laws, that is taking the piss. I might be no better for using steaming into them but if the Police wont do anything, what are we supposed to do.

"UK watch your back".... yes, naughty. But no more naughty than "You're gonna get your f*cking head kicked in"

I can pretty much guarantee you that if I walk around CCS shouting your gonna get your f*cking heads kicked in to away fans i would be nicked in seconds.

i can also guarantee you that if myself and 20 mates went to the exact same locations and started shouting no more mosques in wales, and Islam watch your back, welsh nationalists coming back, I would be nicked on a race relations charge and the other people would be nicked for threatening behaviour or something.

City fans regularly chant you're gonnna get your head kicked in without getting nicked.

The EDL stood at the exact same location shouting no more mosques in wales just a month ago and not one of them were arrested.

i think you will find it has everything to do with it.

its about your religion in your country and not having others rammed theirs down your throat, or even discussed, seeing as your in their country, you either tow the line or keep quiet.

What goes on in other countries is neither here nor there, we are talking about what should be allowed or not allowed in this country. I assume you are suggesting that it is wrong for a country to be strictly oppressive and religiously intolerant - but at the same time you are suggesting that this country should be oppressive and religiously intolerant. I don't get what you are trying to say.

And whilst Saudi Arabia is one of the strictest Muslim Countries in the world, most Islamic countries are not so intolerant and and there are millions of Christians worshiping in churches in Islamic countries. Do you know that those people on Saturday were from Saudi? Do you know that 'their country' is not in fact the UK?

Is anyone forcing you to be a Muslim in this country? No .. so what is your point caller?

I can pretty much guarantee you that if I walk around CCS shouting your gonna get your f*cking heads kicked in to away fans i would be nicked in seconds.

i can also guarantee you that if myself and 20 mates went to the exact same locations and started shouting no more mosques in wales, and Islam watch your back, welsh nationalists coming back, I would be nicked on a race relations charge and the other people would be nicked for threatening behaviour or something.[/quote]

City fans regularly chant you're gonnna get your head kicked in without getting nicked.

[/quote]

No they dont! i havnt hered that chanted at a city match for years, your talking nonsense. Its got to be a good 6-7 years since that was sung, home or away.

And why are you trying to defend the indefencible is beyond me.

Your just on here for a reaction, and you got it, toodle pip.

The hatred towards Christians in Muslim Countries is far greater than any hatred towards Muslims in this country and that is a good thing on our part. It shows that as a nation we are more tolerent to other peoples beliefs. We support this, and are better people for it, however, you have to draw a line. As Joe Public says the vast majority of Muslim British Citizens are law abiding, kind people, but it would be nieve to ignore the Radicals and the damage they can inflict. This is just plain facts and needs to be addressed as a situation is clearly developing.

Muslims are well catered for in the UK and are looked after in comparison to Christians in Muslim countries.

There are 2.6 Million Muslim people living in the UK with 1500 places of worship (Mosques)
There are 2.8 Million Muslims in Pakiston with as little as 100 Churches.
There are roughly 1.2 Million Christians in Saudi Arabia but no Churches and the pracice of Christian Beliefs is not allowed.

In Pakistan discrimination of Christianity is rife.

Christians were persecuted heavily in the 1990's
In 2001 15 Churches were destroyed by a mob of Islamists and in 2002, 7 Christians were shot dead at a charity function.

In 2005, 3000 Millitants attacked Christians, destroying homes, Churches and Salvation Army Buildings

In 2006, Christian man Nasri Ashrad, working in Lahore was attacked for drinking water from a glass whilst working in Lahore as he was seen to be polluting the glass. The mob was cheered on by the public who saw it as a good deed that would lead them on the path to heaven.

I could go on and on but I wont. You get the picture.

The radicals seem to think democracy is a bad thing, yet every single one of them reaps the rewards that a democracy gives.

The English Defence League have around 3-500 active members. The fact is they were formed as an offset of the United Peoples of Luton after the appaling protest against the Royal Anglican Regiment organised by Al-Muhajiroun. On the offset of this , Islam4uk has 1500 members.

None of these organisations are good but are in fact born out of the inpept ability of the government to run the country in the correct mannor. You give an inch, people take a mile.

What will happen in the future, more terrorist attacks, street wars or worse?. Freedom of speech is great, freedom to incite violence, glorify murder, encourage terrorism, brainwash young people is not acceptable on either side and it is the fault of the powers that be to get tough with EVERYONE.

The bottom line is this. If you dont like the country you live in, its people and majority beliefs then find somwhere else to live, and that goes for everyone.

Eddie

I am not sure selective statistics really contribute a lot to the debate. The Christian to Church ratio is meaningless without knowing the size of the church, for instance. Also, what is the definition of a Christian? Someone who goes to church or someone who just happens to come from a nominally ‘Christian country’? There may be less churches for Christians to go to in Islamic countries, but do those ‘Christians’ actually want to go to church?

Figures compiled from government and academic sources show that 930,000 Muslims attend a place of worship in the UK at least once a week, compared with 916,000 Anglicans. Mosque attendance is actually on the way up whilst church attendance is on its way down. Does this mean Muslims are a majority? Clearly not, but you can play all sorts of games with statistics.

There are 47 countries in which Islam is the majority religion. If you want to look at the issue of how Christians are treated in those countries you need to take a much wider sample than the countries you have mentioned, which just happen to be the most oppressive.

In the last week we have seen violence between Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland; In Tibet there is state violence towards Buddhists; In Germany Neo Nazis regularly attack both Muslims and Jews; in Israel you have state violence aimed at Muslims; in Norway Satanists burn down Christian churches.

What has this got to do with the subject at hand? Frankly, nothing. We need to decide what sort of society we want and not worry about how others chose to run their affairs when making that decision. Clamping down on someone’s freedom because they come from a country that is not as free as ours is more than a little surreal. In an effort to defend democracy we find ourselves actually eroding it – which is EXACTLY what Islamic extremists want.

There is a contradiction in what you say. You start by stating that it is good that we as a nation are tolerant of other people’s beliefs. Then end by stating that we need to be tough on everyone. Where do you draw that line? If you are tough on Islamic extremists, you have to be tough on Anti-Islamic extremists. If you want to be tough on threatening chants, you have to catch football fans in the net because despite what has been stated above, you get hateful and threatening chants at football all across the land week in week out.

I am sure that many of those complaining about the demo last week also complain about bubble trips and the police denying them the right to have a ruck. If we are going to clamp down on hatred and freedom of speech, footy fans will also feel the impact. if that is what people want, fine, but you can't have the penny and the bun.

Islam4UK has been proscribed under the anti-terror laws; they have been dealt with quite firmly. So what exactly is the point of the EDL, other than a vehicle for spreading hate and discrimination?

Reading between the lines I think whilst we are not on the same page, I think we are reading the same book – by that I mean that we agree that there needs to be consistency of the way people are treated, what ever the shade of extremism they are involved in. At the moment we don’t have that – otherwise the EDL would have been banned.

As for people who do not like the majority beliefs of this country moving elsewhere, given this is a tolerant multi cultural society, this will mean the BNP and EDL will have to up sticks. Not sure where it is they would move though.

Islam4UK has been proscribed under the anti-terror laws; they have been dealt with quite firmly. So what exactly is the point of the EDL, other than a vehicle for spreading hate and discrimination?

I'm not concerned about what else you've said, because quite frankly I'm not arsed getting into a lengthy debate about the radical islam and the huge presence it has in Britain, contrary to belief.

However, Islam4UK operate under plenty of different organisational names, with the people running them being the heads of these other organisations. They have only proscribed Islam4UK, not the people who run it.

Islam4UK has been proscribed under the anti-terror laws; they have been dealt with quite firmly. So what exactly is the point of the EDL, other than a vehicle for spreading hate and discrimination?

I'm not concerned about what else you've said, because quite frankly I'm not arsed getting into a lengthy debate about the radical islam and the huge presence it has in Britain, contrary to belief.

However, Islam4UK operate under plenty of different organisational names, with the people running them being the heads of these other organisations. They have only proscribed Islam4UK, not the people who run it.

You mean contrary to EVIDENCE.

if Islam4 Uk have formed new organisations, i am sure they are under scrutiny and as soon as they step out of line they will be dealt with.

Joe.

It is clear that you are an intelligent man who has a vast knowledge on the subject matter.

I think that we both agree that all levels of extremism, hatred and intolerance towards other people's beliefs is not for our country, hence we live in a democracy.

I agree that the EDL should be taken off the streets in the same way as the Muslim Extremists/Neo Nazis or the likes of Varg Vikernes of this world should all be treated the same way and prosecuted for their vile crimes/threats.

I personaly, do not want my children, or my childrens children to be in fear of their own saftey whilst walking the streets of Cardiff or be made to here vile demonstrations like the one in the video. There has to be a difference between honest/fair demonstration, and unwarrented racial or otherwise threats.

I, as a citizen have no choice but to put my trust in the Government/Police and I hope they will do right by us, but I wont hold my breath.

Have enjoyed the debate and am going to leave it there now.

All the best.

joe public, why dont you take your bible into saudi and pop into the local church for a sing song then mate.

OH SORRY NO YOU CANT no bibles allowed, no churches built. their country their rules SIMPLE

Bang on the head Chief not a lot to say to that is there

No, not a lot to say cos it has absoultely nothing what so ever to do with the subject being debated.

You have gone off subject Chief. The subject was about radicals threatening the way of life we live in. Not the BNP

The hatred towards Christians in Muslim Countries is far greater than any hatred towards Muslims in this country and that is a good thing on our part. It shows that as a nation we are more tolerent to other peoples beliefs. We support this, and are better people for it, however, you have to draw a line. As Joe Public says the vast majority of Muslim British Citizens are law abiding, kind people, but it would be nieve to ignore the Radicals and the damage they can inflict. This is just plain facts and needs to be addressed as a situation is clearly developing.

Muslims are well catered for in the UK and are looked after in comparison to Christians in Muslim countries.

There are 2.6 Million Muslim people living in the UK with 1500 places of worship (Mosques)
There are 2.8 Million Muslims in Pakiston with as little as 100 Churches.
There are roughly 1.2 Million Christians in Saudi Arabia but no Churches and the pracice of Christian Beliefs is not allowed.

In Pakistan discrimination of Christianity is rife.

Christians were persecuted heavily in the 1990's
In 2001 15 Churches were destroyed by a mob of Islamists and in 2002, 7 Christians were shot dead at a charity function.

In 2005, 3000 Millitants attacked Christians, destroying homes, Churches and Salvation Army Buildings

In 2006, Christian man Nasri Ashrad, working in Lahore was attacked for drinking water from a glass whilst working in Lahore as he was seen to be polluting the glass. The mob was cheered on by the public who saw it as a good deed that would lead them on the path to heaven.

I could go on and on but I wont. You get the picture.

The radicals seem to think democracy is a bad thing, yet every single one of them reaps the rewards that a democracy gives.

The English Defence League have around 3-500 active members. The fact is they were formed as an offset of the United Peoples of Luton after the appaling protest against the Royal Anglican Regiment organised by Al-Muhajiroun. On the offset of this , Islam4uk has 1500 members.

None of these organisations are good but are in fact born out of the inpept ability of the government to run the country in the correct mannor. You give an inch, people take a mile.

What will happen in the future, more terrorist attacks, street wars or worse?. Freedom of speech is great, freedom to incite violence, glorify murder, encourage terrorism, brainwash young people is not acceptable on either side and it is the fault of the powers that be to get tough with EVERYONE.

The bottom line is this. If you dont like the country you live in, its people and majority beliefs then find somwhere else to live, and that goes for everyone.

You mean contrary to EVIDENCE.

if Islam4 Uk have formed new organisations, i am sure they are under scrutiny and as soon as they step out of line they will be dealt with.

No, I definatly mean to belief. There are a lot of radicals in this country, and the government ignore them. Even allow them to stay.

You have gone off subject Chief. The subject was about radicals threatening the way of life we live in. Not the BNP

The very first post was a BNP video. I was pointing out how ironic it is that an organisation that has hatred at its very core, argues for the right to free speech and the right to express their offensive views - then complains when another group does exactly what they do.

Joe.

It is clear that you are an intelligent man who has a vast knowledge on the subject matter.

I think that we both agree that all levels of extremism, hatred and intolerance towards other people's beliefs is not for our country, hence we live in a democracy.

I agree that the EDL should be taken off the streets in the same way as the Muslim Extremists/Neo Nazis or the likes of Varg Vikernes of this world should all be treated the same way and prosecuted for their vile crimes/threats.

I personaly, do not want my children, or my childrens children to be in fear of their own saftey whilst walking the streets of Cardiff or be made to here vile demonstrations like the one in the video. There has to be a difference between honest/fair demonstration, and unwarrented racial or otherwise threats.

I, as a citizen have no choice but to put my trust in the Government/Police and I hope they will do right by us, but I wont hold my breath.

Have enjoyed the debate and am going to leave it there now.

All the best.

If someone has evil intentions I don’t think any amount of legislation or policing is going to change that. The best you will achieve is they will change tactics. The worst case is that you will actually aggravate the situation - to every action there is an equal but opposite reaction. You see it time and time again at the football; treat fans like animals they behave like animals.

I am not sure what the answer to radical Islam is, but I suspect the answer will have to come from within the Muslim Community itself. What we should be doing is helping them, not branding them all as a threat to society. When necessary kick down doors and lock people up, but to do that too readily will simply make matters worse. The EDL claim to be against radical Islam, but their actions have probably radicalised more Muslims than a dozen hate preachers. And the actions of radical Muslims have undoubtedly radicalised otherwise sensible non-Muslims.

The problem is this is the perfect scenario for racists to indulge in what they do best – stir up hatred – but disguise it as something other than racism. Under these circumstances you then get people afraid to talk about the real issues for fear of being racist.

Throw into the mix a distortion of facts, myths, stereo typing and outright lies and you get a very emotional and heated debate. Sometimes from an informed point of view, sometimes not. There is no clear cut right and wrong here. If we debate it sensibly then we can take on board each others views, if we just abuse each other we simply divide each other.

all the best to you too.

You mean contrary to EVIDENCE.

if Islam4 Uk have formed new organisations, i am sure they are under scrutiny and as soon as they step out of line they will be dealt with.

No, I definatly mean to belief. There are a lot of radicals in this country, and the government ignore them. Even allow them to stay.

I hate to get picky, but can you prove that?

I hate to get picky, but can you prove that?

Which bit, the letting radicals stay or the fact I said "a lot"?

If you mean letting the radicals stay, there are various news articles about radicles that have had appeals won for them to stay in the country.

If you mean when I say "a lot" of radicals, for a country where the muslim population is the minority, there seem to be a growing number of reports wherein people are being arrested for "plotting against the country" or whatever the charge is for terrorism. As for the PREACHERS of the hate, there are plenty of cases again, the likes of Chowdry, etc.

Please don't ask me to find these cases, as I really didn't want to get involved in this debate, as I said earlier. I'm sure you're capable of searching google if you want to find out more about it, however.