“ SLEEPING GIANTS “

Catchment areas are no longer solely down to geography, both Man U and Liverpool draw fans from South Wales.

No it's held back by it's geographical location Wales and the west country is traditionally footballs waste land the combined history of all the clubs in the area is poor.yes the jbs are just off the back of the best era in their history but they still have only ever spent 9 seasons in the top flight.im not saying it always has to be this way but 120 years into professional football in the area this is how it's been the best chance of growing a football club is the south east of England where most of the country's wealth is.

I respectfully disagree.

1. We are a UK capital city with only one club.
2. We have a catchment area of 1.5M people, most with enough disposable income to afford our cheap tickets (Source Future Wales 2040 - WG blueprint).
3. Football is the most popular sport in Wales by a huge margin.
4. We have a significant number of potential fans who have always been into whatever big 6 is current who are only attracted to PL but with no link to City.
5. Our 2 outings in the PL prove we can more than fill a 33k stadium. There is a demographic that only want to see PL football.
6. The Red Wall success proves point 5, many only came back as we were successful.
7. Sustained PL football is the only thing that will realise the above potential.

And there is a realistic plan available to achieve all of this. And it could happen with a penstroke from VT and starting as of tomorrow. He stands a chance of getting a fair chunk of his money back, steps aside, eventually sells and sails off into the sunset with his honour intact.

It really is that simple, absolutely realistic business wise and can be done in a heartbeat.

Cheers and thanks for your view. Here's what I think below in colour which just makes it a bit easier to address point by point.

Class post that however I disagree with a few things.

We are a capital city but of a small country and I don’t think the potential base is as big as we think.

(see my detailed reply and data breakdown in a post above).


Football isn’t the most popular by a large margin. Cases can be made for both and yes I realise it is internationals that make rugby popular but there’s a lot of rugby being played.

(If you check the current or previous historical data for registered players for the FAW and WRU, the FAW is significantly higher, proving football is a bigger sport than rugby as more people are playing it even down to the grass roots level, I don't have these figures to hand but they have historically been thia way for some time. The poor attendances since rugby changed to the regions is also revealing. The Mil Stad for internationals will always be full as it is now an event, many of those who go don't attend club rugby, they are there solely for the event).


Not sure about 5. We filled out for the big teams who had their fans in the ground in our end.

(We sold our capacity of 33,000 STs for both PL seasons and had a waiting list).


Sadly FFP rules would curtail us getting to the level required I think unless our youth development improves significantly.

FFP would of course be needed to be managed effectively, it is very important and entirely realistic, as demonstrated by clubs like Brighton and Bournemouth who have been efficiently operated.
Our academy output is very important in the long term but it is not a key component to achieve PL status in the first phase it is important however to sustain our long term position there. We would also become a "selling club" too which would also add to our sustainable revenue stream).

Averaged 31k and 27k for our premier seasons.

There were tickets available regularly for walk ups.

Thanks for confirming. So the average attendance is 29K for two isolated PL seasons. A sustained period in the PL would deliver deliver considerably more and would certainly achieve the return of the floating fans from our brief PL attendance peak, so let's say 29K.

We have a unique potential catchment area of 1.5M. I believe we could eventually and realistically add a further 11K to reach a regular 40K attendance, which is only 0.73% growth in terms of new business.

Catchment areas are no longer solely down to geography, both Man U and Liverpool draw fans from South Wales.

Absolutely true. Which actually extends our unique and significant geographical catchment area in terms of potentially attracting new fans as a result of long term sustained PL success. I would also wager existing fans of non Welsh and top 6 clubs may also start to eventually watch us regularly.

No it's held back by it's geographical location Wales and the west country is traditionally footballs waste land the combined history of all the clubs in the area is poor.yes the jbs are just off the back of the best era in their history but they still have only ever spent 9 seasons in the top flight.im not saying it always has to be this way but 120 years into professional football in the area this is how it's been the best chance of growing a football club is the south east of England where most of the country's wealth is.

I respectfully disagree.

1. We are a UK capital city with only one club.
2. We have a catchment area of 1.5M people, most with enough disposable income to afford our cheap tickets (Source Future Wales 2040 - WG blueprint).
3. Football is the most popular sport in Wales by a huge margin.
4. We have a significant number of potential fans who have always been into whatever big 6 is current who are only attracted to PL but with no link to City.
5. Our 2 outings in the PL prove we can more than fill a 33k stadium. There is a demographic that only want to see PL football.
6. The Red Wall success proves point 5, many only came back as we were successful.
7. Sustained PL football is the only thing that will realise the above potential.

And there is a realistic plan available to achieve all of this. And it could happen with a penstroke from VT and starting as of tomorrow. He stands a chance of getting a fair chunk of his money back, steps aside, eventually sells and sails off into the sunset with his honour intact.

It really is that simple, absolutely realistic business wise and can be done in a heartbeat.

Cheers and thanks for your view. Here's what I think below in colour which just makes it a bit easier to address point by point.

Class post that however I disagree with a few things.

We are a capital city but of a small country and I don’t think the potential base is as big as we think.

(see my detailed reply and data breakdown in a post above).


Football isn’t the most popular by a large margin. Cases can be made for both and yes I realise it is internationals that make rugby popular but there’s a lot of rugby being played.

(If you check the current or previous historical data for registered players for the FAW and WRU, the FAW is significantly higher, proving football is a bigger sport than rugby as more people are playing it even down to the grass roots level, I don't have these figures to hand but they have historically been thia way for some time. The poor attendances since rugby changed to the regions is also revealing. The Mil Stad for internationals will always be full as it is now an event, many of those who go don't attend club rugby, they are there solely for the event).


Not sure about 5. We filled out for the big teams who had their fans in the ground in our end.

(We sold our capacity of 33,000 STs for both PL seasons and had a waiting list).


Sadly FFP rules would curtail us getting to the level required I think unless our youth development improves significantly.

FFP would of course be needed to be managed effectively, it is very important and entirely realistic, as demonstrated by clubs like Brighton and Bournemouth who have been efficiently operated.
Our academy output is very important in the long term but it is not a key component to achieve PL status in the first phase it is important however to sustain our long term position there. We would also become a "selling club" too which would also add to our sustainable revenue stream).

Averaged 31k and 27k for our premier seasons.

There were tickets available regularly for walk ups.

Thanks for confirming. So the average attendance is 29K for two isolated PL seasons. A sustained period in the PL would deliver deliver considerably more and would certainly achieve the return of the floating fans from our brief PL attendance peak, so let's say 29K.

We have a unique potential catchment area of 1.5M. I believe we could eventually and realistically add a further 11K to reach a regular 40K attendance, which is only 0.73% growth in terms of new business.

I’d love that to be true.

Define success? If we had seasons of mid table stabilisation (which would be lovely) we wouldn’t get big crowds apart from the big games.

No it's held back by it's geographical location Wales and the west country is traditionally footballs waste land the combined history of all the clubs in the area is poor.yes the jbs are just off the back of the best era in their history but they still have only ever spent 9 seasons in the top flight.im not saying it always has to be this way but 120 years into professional football in the area this is how it's been the best chance of growing a football club is the south east of England where most of the country's wealth is.

I happen to agree with you. Not ever having been a hotbed of football makes it much more difficult to attract top rated players to the area. Regardless of how a wealthy owner would help our cause and notwithstanding Cardiff is a popular and well-regarded city still doesn't alter the fact that there are other clubs who will always trump us when it comes to location.
Think London, Manchester, Liverpool and the North East for instance and you get the gist.

Would you call Bournemouth and Brighton a hotbed of football yet they have achieved sustained PL success?

Our fan potential is far bigger - 1.5M within easy reach and well connected to a city that is an attractive destination. We have world class events 10 minutes away at the Principality Stadium that proves this. And PL football is a world class event that draws people in.

Liverpool and Manchester's populations are a third of our potential catchment area. They are popular and established by continued and established success, as are the usual top 6, many of which have multiple clubs in their area. Many of their supporters are not from their city or region, they have become global brands because of their continued success.

But let's remove even that from the equation.

Even if we only had the 12K capacity of Bournemouth, the sustainable revenue core income is not from STs or merch, it's from pure PL revenue, the former is important of course but is a side income. That is what they and others have achieved. And so can we but even bigger. The statistics, trends and data is all there to support it.

What this is really about is a realistic plan to ultimately achieve the above and more for the long term.

And as I've pointed out, it's entirely realistic and could be done tomorrow in a penstroke.

Paul what is the realistic plan? Being a bit dense I'm afraid

No doubt it involves a certain former owner who still deeply loves the club he took to the brink of extinction who now can't wait to spend millions of pounds of his own personal monies riding in on a white horse to save the club he holds deep in his heart having learned his lessons from his previous mistakes.

Wow here we go lol

Our Club back in the late 90’s -2000 was virtually every year on the verge of extinction if you were there like me week in week out David then you know I am telling the truth.
Crowds went as low as 1,400 at home and one away game we took 11 away fans.
9 yrs in the 4th Division, struggling near the bottom.

Ninian Park totally run down , No one wanted us.

Where were the fans then?

Where were the buyers?

Where were we going?


Your Tans would not of touched us in League 4 and a ground like Ninian Park which I loved.

I cannot disgree with any of that Annis but I will always feel disgruntled about the way it ended and have serious doubts that things would be different a second time.

No it's held back by it's geographical location Wales and the west country is traditionally footballs waste land the combined history of all the clubs in the area is poor.yes the jbs are just off the back of the best era in their history but they still have only ever spent 9 seasons in the top flight.im not saying it always has to be this way but 120 years into professional football in the area this is how it's been the best chance of growing a football club is the south east of England where most of the country's wealth is.

I respectfully disagree.

1. We are a UK capital city with only one club.
2. We have a catchment area of 1.5M people, most with enough disposable income to afford our cheap tickets (Source Future Wales 2040 - WG blueprint).
3. Football is the most popular sport in Wales by a huge margin.
4. We have a significant number of potential fans who have always been into whatever big 6 is current who are only attracted to PL but with no link to City.
5. Our 2 outings in the PL prove we can more than fill a 33k stadium. There is a demographic that only want to see PL football.
6. The Red Wall success proves point 5, many only came back as we were successful.
7. Sustained PL football is the only thing that will realise the above potential.

And there is a realistic plan available to achieve all of this. And it could happen with a penstroke from VT and starting as of tomorrow. He stands a chance of getting a fair chunk of his money back, steps aside, eventually sells and sails off into the sunset with his honour intact.

It really is that simple, absolutely realistic business wise and can be done in a heartbeat.

Cheers and thanks for your view. Here's what I think below in colour which just makes it a bit easier to address point by point.

Class post that however I disagree with a few things.

We are a capital city but of a small country and I don’t think the potential base is as big as we think.

(see my detailed reply and data breakdown in a post above).


Football isn’t the most popular by a large margin. Cases can be made for both and yes I realise it is internationals that make rugby popular but there’s a lot of rugby being played.

(If you check the current or previous historical data for registered players for the FAW and WRU, the FAW is significantly higher, proving football is a bigger sport than rugby as more people are playing it even down to the grass roots level, I don't have these figures to hand but they have historically been thia way for some time. The poor attendances since rugby changed to the regions is also revealing. The Mil Stad for internationals will always be full as it is now an event, many of those who go don't attend club rugby, they are there solely for the event).


Not sure about 5. We filled out for the big teams who had their fans in the ground in our end.

(We sold our capacity of 33,000 STs for both PL seasons and had a waiting list).


Sadly FFP rules would curtail us getting to the level required I think unless our youth development improves significantly.

FFP would of course be needed to be managed effectively, it is very important and entirely realistic, as demonstrated by clubs like Brighton and Bournemouth who have been efficiently operated.
Our academy output is very important in the long term but it is not a key component to achieve PL status in the first phase it is important however to sustain our long term position there. We would also become a "selling club" too which would also add to our sustainable revenue stream).

Averaged 31k and 27k for our premier seasons.

There were tickets available regularly for walk ups.

Thanks for confirming. So the average attendance is 29K for two isolated PL seasons. A sustained period in the PL would deliver deliver considerably more and would certainly achieve the return of the floating fans from our brief PL attendance peak, so let's say 29K.

We have a unique potential catchment area of 1.5M. I believe we could eventually and realistically add a further 11K to reach a regular 40K attendance, which is only 0.73% growth in terms of new business.

I’d love that to be true.

Define success? If we had seasons of mid table stabilisation (which would be lovely) we wouldn’t get big crowds apart from the big games.

I really believe its realistically and also achievable in a 3-5 year initial phase one plan and with a very sensible budget efficiently spent in the first phase to gain peomotion, in order to avoid having to pay high fees upon promotion and establish ourselves.

I won't go into a precise success definition but the two key outcomes would eventually be mid to upper table establishment after 3-5 years.

Years 5-7 would be another phase that does have financial challenges as shown by Swansea. The ultimate aim at that time would be to be sold to an owner who could then take us to the next level. The owner would have financial resources significantly greater than VT.

And I also think that VT still sees everything I have simply detailed and hopefully provides facts and reasonable arguments for as realistically achievable. Both he and MD wouldn't be continuing with us otherwise as they see this as realistically achievable. We are in a very unique position in the UK in terms of potential as I've highlighted before. VT and MD see this also.

And all this could begin tomorrow with a penstroke. And everyone wins, including VT, who gets paid and then sails off in phase one whilst preserving face.

Sorry Maccy, forgot to add an important point. Whether we are attracting 12K (Bournemouth) or 40K, that figure is immaterial to our business model as it's at worst a side income to the main income stream of PL revenues.

Tan has always known this as shown with his "fans are just retail customers" infamous comment. He was of course jaw droppingly wrong on many levels but in terms of the financials, even if we averaged 27K it is only a relatively small proportion in terms of our future revenue base. Now don't get me started on proper fan engagement and how to simply archive it as that's another story but again, entirely realistic and achievable if simply managed properly! And it's not even that difficult.

Sorry Maccy, forgot to add an important point. Whether we are attracting 12K (Bournemouth) or 40K, that figure is immaterial to our business model as it's at worst a side income to the main income stream of PL revenues.

Tan has always known this as shown with his "fans are just retail customers" infamous comment. He was of course jaw droppingly wrong on many levels but in terms of the financials, even if we averaged 27K it is only a relatively small proportion in terms of our future revenue base. Now don't get me started on proper fan engagement and how to simply archive it as that's another story but again, entirely realistic and achievable if simply managed properly! And it's not even that difficult.

On your point of proper fan engagement, that is about to start through the Fan Advisory Board with elections due to be completed by the end of this month and the first meeting the week after. This has come about after years of work , now has full Government support and will oblige clubs to prove that they are engaging in regular full consultation with elected fans on strategic issues. If clubs fail to do so then they risk losing their licence to operate once the Independent Regulator is in place (likely to be start of 25/26 season so clubs need to prepare for it now).

Season ticket holders have been given the chance to vote in 5 of the 11 FAB members so those votes are important. The other 5 members are 2 from the Supporters Trust board (the Government White Paper says there should be Trust representation), 2 from the Supporters Club Committee and 1 from the Disabled Supporters Association. So all those roles are already voted in and are full. Of the other 5, 1 will be female (again the White Paper says there should be), 1 under 25 fan to give a younger fan view and input and 3 from the rest of the fanbase. Photos and details of those on the voting shortlists were sent out to season ticket holders and members and are also on the official club website so people can see who they are voting for and what they expect to bring to the discussions.

The FAB will meet with a group of club directors and heads of departments on a quarterly basis to discuss the more important strategic issues impacting on fans. Issues such as ticketing, fans behaviour at games etc. will remain with the current (very good) regular SLO meetings.

No it's held back by it's geographical location Wales and the west country is traditionally footballs waste land the combined history of all the clubs in the area is poor.yes the jbs are just off the back of the best era in their history but they still have only ever spent 9 seasons in the top flight.im not saying it always has to be this way but 120 years into professional football in the area this is how it's been the best chance of growing a football club is the south east of England where most of the country's wealth is.

I respectfully disagree.

1. We are a UK capital city with only one club.
2. We have a catchment area of 1.5M people, most with enough disposable income to afford our cheap tickets (Source Future Wales 2040 - WG blueprint).
3. Football is the most popular sport in Wales by a huge margin.
4. We have a significant number of potential fans who have always been into whatever big 6 is current who are only attracted to PL but with no link to City.
5. Our 2 outings in the PL prove we can more than fill a 33k stadium. There is a demographic that only want to see PL football.
6. The Red Wall success proves point 5, many only came back as we were successful.
7. Sustained PL football is the only thing that will realise the above potential.

And there is a realistic plan available to achieve all of this. And it could happen with a penstroke from VT and starting as of tomorrow. He stands a chance of getting a fair chunk of his money back, steps aside, eventually sells and sails off into the sunset with his honour intact.

It really is that simple, absolutely realistic business wise and can be done in a heartbeat.

Cheers and thanks for your view. Here's what I think below in colour which just makes it a bit easier to address point by point.

Class post that however I disagree with a few things.

We are a capital city but of a small country and I don’t think the potential base is as big as we think.

(see my detailed reply and data breakdown in a post above).


Football isn’t the most popular by a large margin. Cases can be made for both and yes I realise it is internationals that make rugby popular but there’s a lot of rugby being played.

(If you check the current or previous historical data for registered players for the FAW and WRU, the FAW is significantly higher, proving football is a bigger sport than rugby as more people are playing it even down to the grass roots level, I don't have these figures to hand but they have historically been thia way for some time. The poor attendances since rugby changed to the regions is also revealing. The Mil Stad for internationals will always be full as it is now an event, many of those who go don't attend club rugby, they are there solely for the event).


Not sure about 5. We filled out for the big teams who had their fans in the ground in our end.

(We sold our capacity of 33,000 STs for both PL seasons and had a waiting list).


Sadly FFP rules would curtail us getting to the level required I think unless our youth development improves significantly.

FFP would of course be needed to be managed effectively, it is very important and entirely realistic, as demonstrated by clubs like Brighton and Bournemouth who have been efficiently operated.
Our academy output is very important in the long term but it is not a key component to achieve PL status in the first phase it is important however to sustain our long term position there. We would also become a "selling club" too which would also add to our sustainable revenue stream).

Averaged 31k and 27k for our premier seasons.

There were tickets available regularly for walk ups.

Thanks for confirming. So the average attendance is 29K for two isolated PL seasons. A sustained period in the PL would deliver deliver considerably more and would certainly achieve the return of the floating fans from our brief PL attendance peak, so let's say 29K.

We have a unique potential catchment area of 1.5M. I believe we could eventually and realistically add a further 11K to reach a regular 40K attendance, which is only 0.73% growth in terms of new business.

I’d love that to be true.

Define success? If we had seasons of mid table stabilisation (which would be lovely) we wouldn’t get big crowds apart from the big games.

I really believe its realistically and also achievable in a 3-5 year initial phase one plan and with a very sensible budget efficiently spent in the first phase to gain peomotion, in order to avoid having to pay high fees upon promotion and establish ourselves.

I won't go into a precise success definition but the two key outcomes would eventually be mid to upper table establishment after 3-5 years.

Years 5-7 would be another phase that does have financial challenges as shown by Swansea. The ultimate aim at that time would be to be sold to an owner who could then take us to the next level. The owner would have financial resources significantly greater than VT.

And I also think that VT still sees everything I have simply detailed and hopefully provides facts and reasonable arguments for as realistically achievable. Both he and MD wouldn't be continuing with us otherwise as they see this as realistically achievable. We are in a very unique position in the UK in terms of potential as I've highlighted before. VT and MD see this also.

And all this could begin tomorrow with a penstroke. And everyone wins, including VT, who gets paid and then sails off in phase one whilst preserving face.

Our best chance was when we got promoted under Malky. Tan spent big on the squad to get us up then backed Malky when we went up. Sadly he didn’t spend wisely and it burnt us. Then Ole spent big but couldn’t manage properly.

No it's held back by it's geographical location Wales and the west country is traditionally footballs waste land the combined history of all the clubs in the area is poor.yes the jbs are just off the back of the best era in their history but they still have only ever spent 9 seasons in the top flight.im not saying it always has to be this way but 120 years into professional football in the area this is how it's been the best chance of growing a football club is the south east of England where most of the country's wealth is.

I respectfully disagree.

1. We are a UK capital city with only one club.
2. We have a catchment area of 1.5M people, most with enough disposable income to afford our cheap tickets (Source Future Wales 2040 - WG blueprint).
3. Football is the most popular sport in Wales by a huge margin.
4. We have a significant number of potential fans who have always been into whatever big 6 is current who are only attracted to PL but with no link to City.
5. Our 2 outings in the PL prove we can more than fill a 33k stadium. There is a demographic that only want to see PL football.
6. The Red Wall success proves point 5, many only came back as we were successful.
7. Sustained PL football is the only thing that will realise the above potential.

And there is a realistic plan available to achieve all of this. And it could happen with a penstroke from VT and starting as of tomorrow. He stands a chance of getting a fair chunk of his money back, steps aside, eventually sells and sails off into the sunset with his honour intact.

It really is that simple, absolutely realistic business wise and can be done in a heartbeat.

Cheers and thanks for your view. Here's what I think below in colour which just makes it a bit easier to address point by point.

Class post that however I disagree with a few things.

We are a capital city but of a small country and I don’t think the potential base is as big as we think.

(see my detailed reply and data breakdown in a post above).


Football isn’t the most popular by a large margin. Cases can be made for both and yes I realise it is internationals that make rugby popular but there’s a lot of rugby being played.

(If you check the current or previous historical data for registered players for the FAW and WRU, the FAW is significantly higher, proving football is a bigger sport than rugby as more people are playing it even down to the grass roots level, I don't have these figures to hand but they have historically been thia way for some time. The poor attendances since rugby changed to the regions is also revealing. The Mil Stad for internationals will always be full as it is now an event, many of those who go don't attend club rugby, they are there solely for the event).


Not sure about 5. We filled out for the big teams who had their fans in the ground in our end.

(We sold our capacity of 33,000 STs for both PL seasons and had a waiting list).


Sadly FFP rules would curtail us getting to the level required I think unless our youth development improves significantly.

FFP would of course be needed to be managed effectively, it is very important and entirely realistic, as demonstrated by clubs like Brighton and Bournemouth who have been efficiently operated.
Our academy output is very important in the long term but it is not a key component to achieve PL status in the first phase it is important however to sustain our long term position there. We would also become a "selling club" too which would also add to our sustainable revenue stream).

Averaged 31k and 27k for our premier seasons.

There were tickets available regularly for walk ups.

Thanks for confirming. So the average attendance is 29K for two isolated PL seasons. A sustained period in the PL would deliver deliver considerably more and would certainly achieve the return of the floating fans from our brief PL attendance peak, so let's say 29K.

We have a unique potential catchment area of 1.5M. I believe we could eventually and realistically add a further 11K to reach a regular 40K attendance, which is only 0.73% growth in terms of new business.

I’d love that to be true.

Define success? If we had seasons of mid table stabilisation (which would be lovely) we wouldn’t get big crowds apart from the big games.

I really believe its realistically and also achievable in a 3-5 year initial phase one plan and with a very sensible budget efficiently spent in the first phase to gain peomotion, in order to avoid having to pay high fees upon promotion and establish ourselves.

I won't go into a precise success definition but the two key outcomes would eventually be mid to upper table establishment after 3-5 years.

Years 5-7 would be another phase that does have financial challenges as shown by Swansea. The ultimate aim at that time would be to be sold to an owner who could then take us to the next level. The owner would have financial resources significantly greater than VT.

And I also think that VT still sees everything I have simply detailed and hopefully provides facts and reasonable arguments for as realistically achievable. Both he and MD wouldn't be continuing with us otherwise as they see this as realistically achievable. We are in a very unique position in the UK in terms of potential as I've highlighted before. VT and MD see this also.

And all this could begin tomorrow with a penstroke. And everyone wins, including VT, who gets paid and then sails off in phase one whilst preserving face.

Our best chance was when we got promoted under Malky. Tan spent big on the squad to get us up then backed Malky when we went up. Sadly he didn’t spend wisely and it burnt us. Then Ole spent big but couldn’t manage properly.

The Warnock repeated the same thing , wasting a fortune on transfers and overinflated wages for players with little or no onward sales value

Sorry Maccy, forgot to add an important point. Whether we are attracting 12K (Bournemouth) or 40K, that figure is immaterial to our business model as it's at worst a side income to the main income stream of PL revenues.

Tan has always known this as shown with his "fans are just retail customers" infamous comment. He was of course jaw droppingly wrong on many levels but in terms of the financials, even if we averaged 27K it is only a relatively small proportion in terms of our future revenue base. Now don't get me started on proper fan engagement and how to simply archive it as that's another story but again, entirely realistic and achievable if simply managed properly! And it's not even that difficult.

On your point of proper fan engagement, that is about to start through the Fan Advisory Board with elections due to be completed by the end of this month and the first meeting the week after. This has come about after years of work , now has full Government support and will oblige clubs to prove that they are engaging in regular full consultation with elected fans on strategic issues. If clubs fail to do so then they risk losing their licence to operate once the Independent Regulator is in place (likely to be start of 25/26 season so clubs need to prepare for it now).

Season ticket holders have been given the chance to vote in 5 of the 11 FAB members so those votes are important. The other 5 members are 2 from the Supporters Trust board (the Government White Paper says there should be Trust representation), 2 from the Supporters Club Committee and 1 from the Disabled Supporters Association. So all those roles are already voted in and are full. Of the other 5, 1 will be female (again the White Paper says there should be), 1 under 25 fan to give a younger fan view and input and 3 from the rest of the fanbase. Photos and details of those on the voting shortlists were sent out to season ticket holders and members and are also on the official club website so people can see who they are voting for and what they expect to bring to the discussions.

The FAB will meet with a group of club directors and heads of departments on a quarterly basis to discuss the more important strategic issues impacting on fans. Issues such as ticketing, fans behaviour at games etc. will remain with the current (very good) regular SLO meetings.

Absolutely and it's hopefully going to be an effective platform to achieve just that and more by having a direct input into key boardroom decisions. There are some good candidates who are promoting themselves as independents in addition to the statutory members who represent the ST, CC, Disability and Corporate statutory members.

As said, even the important fan engagement element is easy to address and the Fan Advisory Board is hopefully the platform for that and many other things, providing of course the board implement sensible broad consensus ideas and suggestions which are realistic and beneficial. All easily done.

No it's held back by it's geographical location Wales and the west country is traditionally footballs waste land the combined history of all the clubs in the area is poor.yes the jbs are just off the back of the best era in their history but they still have only ever spent 9 seasons in the top flight.im not saying it always has to be this way but 120 years into professional football in the area this is how it's been the best chance of growing a football club is the south east of England where most of the country's wealth is.

I respectfully disagree.

1. We are a UK capital city with only one club.
2. We have a catchment area of 1.5M people, most with enough disposable income to afford our cheap tickets (Source Future Wales 2040 - WG blueprint).
3. Football is the most popular sport in Wales by a huge margin.
4. We have a significant number of potential fans who have always been into whatever big 6 is current who are only attracted to PL but with no link to City.
5. Our 2 outings in the PL prove we can more than fill a 33k stadium. There is a demographic that only want to see PL football.
6. The Red Wall success proves point 5, many only came back as we were successful.
7. Sustained PL football is the only thing that will realise the above potential.

And there is a realistic plan available to achieve all of this. And it could happen with a penstroke from VT and starting as of tomorrow. He stands a chance of getting a fair chunk of his money back, steps aside, eventually sells and sails off into the sunset with his honour intact.

It really is that simple, absolutely realistic business wise and can be done in a heartbeat.

Cheers and thanks for your view. Here's what I think below in colour which just makes it a bit easier to address point by point.

Class post that however I disagree with a few things.

We are a capital city but of a small country and I don’t think the potential base is as big as we think.

(see my detailed reply and data breakdown in a post above).


Football isn’t the most popular by a large margin. Cases can be made for both and yes I realise it is internationals that make rugby popular but there’s a lot of rugby being played.

(If you check the current or previous historical data for registered players for the FAW and WRU, the FAW is significantly higher, proving football is a bigger sport than rugby as more people are playing it even down to the grass roots level, I don't have these figures to hand but they have historically been thia way for some time. The poor attendances since rugby changed to the regions is also revealing. The Mil Stad for internationals will always be full as it is now an event, many of those who go don't attend club rugby, they are there solely for the event).


Not sure about 5. We filled out for the big teams who had their fans in the ground in our end.

(We sold our capacity of 33,000 STs for both PL seasons and had a waiting list).


Sadly FFP rules would curtail us getting to the level required I think unless our youth development improves significantly.

FFP would of course be needed to be managed effectively, it is very important and entirely realistic, as demonstrated by clubs like Brighton and Bournemouth who have been efficiently operated.
Our academy output is very important in the long term but it is not a key component to achieve PL status in the first phase it is important however to sustain our long term position there. We would also become a "selling club" too which would also add to our sustainable revenue stream).

Averaged 31k and 27k for our premier seasons.

There were tickets available regularly for walk ups.

Thanks for confirming. So the average attendance is 29K for two isolated PL seasons. A sustained period in the PL would deliver deliver considerably more and would certainly achieve the return of the floating fans from our brief PL attendance peak, so let's say 29K.

We have a unique potential catchment area of 1.5M. I believe we could eventually and realistically add a further 11K to reach a regular 40K attendance, which is only 0.73% growth in terms of new business.

I’d love that to be true.

Define success? If we had seasons of mid table stabilisation (which would be lovely) we wouldn’t get big crowds apart from the big games.

I really believe its realistically and also achievable in a 3-5 year initial phase one plan and with a very sensible budget efficiently spent in the first phase to gain peomotion, in order to avoid having to pay high fees upon promotion and establish ourselves.

I won't go into a precise success definition but the two key outcomes would eventually be mid to upper table establishment after 3-5 years.

Years 5-7 would be another phase that does have financial challenges as shown by Swansea. The ultimate aim at that time would be to be sold to an owner who could then take us to the next level. The owner would have financial resources significantly greater than VT.

And I also think that VT still sees everything I have simply detailed and hopefully provides facts and reasonable arguments for as realistically achievable. Both he and MD wouldn't be continuing with us otherwise as they see this as realistically achievable. We are in a very unique position in the UK in terms of potential as I've highlighted before. VT and MD see this also.

And all this could begin tomorrow with a penstroke. And everyone wins, including VT, who gets paid and then sails off in phase one whilst preserving face.

Our best chance was when we got promoted under Malky. Tan spent big on the squad to get us up then backed Malky when we went up. Sadly he didn’t spend wisely and it burnt us. Then Ole spent big but couldn’t manage properly.

The Warnock repeated the same thing , wasting a fortune on transfers and overinflated wages for players with little or no onward sales value

I think Warnock did a lot more with a lot less than Malky.

My dream scenario would have been us riding the momentum when Sam owned us. Then DJ taking us up and doing his magic with buying cheap and selling expensive.

We really could have gone places.

Annis, I would back over the road in a heartbeat.
Progress they call it lol.
Back on topic, saying we had full stadiums whilst in PL proves the point that the game and fans are fickle, look at the meltdown on here lately.

Jules and I would , I would even come back way more if we were still at Ninian Park.

CCS is Soulless.

Yes our fans deserted way way to quick.

CCS isn't Soulless for Wales games. I blame the drum (but may get lynched for that) and that these millenials would rather play xbox than fire lager into them!

We're definately a sleeping giant with huge potential. I saw a 10 year old walking around South Wales in a Saudi football shirt the other week; even the middle east are now taking some of our (potential) shirt sales!

No it's held back by it's geographical location Wales and the west country is traditionally footballs waste land the combined history of all the clubs in the area is poor.yes the jbs are just off the back of the best era in their history but they still have only ever spent 9 seasons in the top flight.im not saying it always has to be this way but 120 years into professional football in the area this is how it's been the best chance of growing a football club is the south east of England where most of the country's wealth is.

I respectfully disagree.

1. We are a UK capital city with only one club.
2. We have a catchment area of 1.5M people, most with enough disposable income to afford our cheap tickets (Source Future Wales 2040 - WG blueprint).
3. Football is the most popular sport in Wales by a huge margin.
4. We have a significant number of potential fans who have always been into whatever big 6 is current who are only attracted to PL but with no link to City.
5. Our 2 outings in the PL prove we can more than fill a 33k stadium. There is a demographic that only want to see PL football.
6. The Red Wall success proves point 5, many only came back as we were successful.
7. Sustained PL football is the only thing that will realise the above potential.

And there is a realistic plan available to achieve all of this. And it could happen with a penstroke from VT and starting as of tomorrow. He stands a chance of getting a fair chunk of his money back, steps aside, eventually sells and sails off into the sunset with his honour intact.

It really is that simple, absolutely realistic business wise and can be done in a heartbeat.

Cheers and thanks for your view. Here's what I think below in colour which just makes it a bit easier to address point by point.

Class post that however I disagree with a few things.

We are a capital city but of a small country and I don’t think the potential base is as big as we think.

(see my detailed reply and data breakdown in a post above).


Football isn’t the most popular by a large margin. Cases can be made for both and yes I realise it is internationals that make rugby popular but there’s a lot of rugby being played.

(If you check the current or previous historical data for registered players for the FAW and WRU, the FAW is significantly higher, proving football is a bigger sport than rugby as more people are playing it even down to the grass roots level, I don't have these figures to hand but they have historically been thia way for some time. The poor attendances since rugby changed to the regions is also revealing. The Mil Stad for internationals will always be full as it is now an event, many of those who go don't attend club rugby, they are there solely for the event).


Not sure about 5. We filled out for the big teams who had their fans in the ground in our end.

(We sold our capacity of 33,000 STs for both PL seasons and had a waiting list).


Sadly FFP rules would curtail us getting to the level required I think unless our youth development improves significantly.

FFP would of course be needed to be managed effectively, it is very important and entirely realistic, as demonstrated by clubs like Brighton and Bournemouth who have been efficiently operated.
Our academy output is very important in the long term but it is not a key component to achieve PL status in the first phase it is important however to sustain our long term position there. We would also become a "selling club" too which would also add to our sustainable revenue stream).

Averaged 31k and 27k for our premier seasons.

There were tickets available regularly for walk ups.

Thanks for confirming. So the average attendance is 29K for two isolated PL seasons. A sustained period in the PL would deliver deliver considerably more and would certainly achieve the return of the floating fans from our brief PL attendance peak, so let's say 29K.

We have a unique potential catchment area of 1.5M. I believe we could eventually and realistically add a further 11K to reach a regular 40K attendance, which is only 0.73% growth in terms of new business.

I’d love that to be true.

Define success? If we had seasons of mid table stabilisation (which would be lovely) we wouldn’t get big crowds apart from the big games.

I really believe its realistically and also achievable in a 3-5 year initial phase one plan and with a very sensible budget efficiently spent in the first phase to gain peomotion, in order to avoid having to pay high fees upon promotion and establish ourselves.

I won't go into a precise success definition but the two key outcomes would eventually be mid to upper table establishment after 3-5 years.

Years 5-7 would be another phase that does have financial challenges as shown by Swansea. The ultimate aim at that time would be to be sold to an owner who could then take us to the next level. The owner would have financial resources significantly greater than VT.

And I also think that VT still sees everything I have simply detailed and hopefully provides facts and reasonable arguments for as realistically achievable. Both he and MD wouldn't be continuing with us otherwise as they see this as realistically achievable. We are in a very unique position in the UK in terms of potential as I've highlighted before. VT and MD see this also.

And all this could begin tomorrow with a penstroke. And everyone wins, including VT, who gets paid and then sails off in phase one whilst preserving face.

Our best chance was when we got promoted under Malky. Tan spent big on the squad to get us up then backed Malky when we went up. Sadly he didn’t spend wisely and it burnt us. Then Ole spent big but couldn’t manage properly.

Completely agree. NW also made mistakes and I love both those managers. All of this and including Ole would have been avoided by effective ownership and management and the basis if the plan we've discussed in this thread would have been a common sense option to achieve our phase one goal, which is promotion and sustainable establishment in the PL.

I believe it is the only sensible option short of Tan leaving and a new suitable proven owner buying us, which is not going to happen in our current state as Tan wants a decent chunk of his £200M back. The plan would deliver on everything whilst Tan still owned the club but somebody else delivered the football product, he gets paid and then walks away saving face, which is precisely what he wants.

He needs to act soon too, as he's not getting any younger and his family have no interest in our club, and ultimately, nor does he, he wants out but on his terms and it could all start tomorrow.

Maccy - I couldn't reply to your other post as the thread is too big. It was just to say that I completely agree about your comment about our time under Sam and DJ. And we would have got there I believe, we were in touching distance. And I absolutely believe that it could be realistically achieved with Sams involvement delivering the football product.

He would be perfect in my opinion, I know that can divide some personal views but if I was business consulting to the club and taking any personal biase or sentiment out of it, the plan I've discussed would be the best practical option for all in terms of delivering sustainable PL status, paying off Tan via a sale based on increased value to buyer X and then he can finally leave and preserve his honour.

Everybody wins.

If Mr Tan wants a sizeable chunk of the £200m back why be so childish and not take the offer of £1m upfront and £1m when we reach PL which was alleged to be on the table but as MD said Mr Tan wouldn't sell to a certain someone.
Now to me that's bad business as you donate to like someone to flog them something.

If Mr Tan wants a sizeable chunk of the £200m back why be so childish and not take the offer of £1m upfront and £1m when we reach PL which was alleged to be on the table but as MD said Mr Tan wouldn't sell to a certain someone.
Now to me that's bad business as you donate to like someone to flog them something.

Because it’s 198 million less than what he wants maybe?

If Mr Tan wants a sizeable chunk of the £200m back why be so childish and not take the offer of £1m upfront and £1m when we reach PL which was alleged to be on the table but as MD said Mr Tan wouldn't sell to a certain someone.
Now to me that's bad business as you donate to like someone to flog them something.

Because it’s 198 million less than what he wants maybe?

EDIT... £100M UP FRONT.
£1OOM ON GETTING TO PL.

No wonder he wouldn't sell LMFHAO.

If Mr Tan wants a sizeable chunk of the £200m back why be so childish and not take the offer of £1m upfront and £1m when we reach PL which was alleged to be on the table but as MD said Mr Tan wouldn't sell to a certain someone.
Now to me that's bad business as you donate to like someone to flog them something.

Because it’s 198 million less than what he wants maybe?

EDIT... £100M UP FRONT.
£1OOM ON GETTING TO PL.

No wonder he wouldn't sell LMFHAO.

Brilliant.

I would be very surprised if he was offered those figures though

If Mr Tan wants a sizeable chunk of the £200m back why be so childish and not take the offer of £1m upfront and £1m when we reach PL which was alleged to be on the table but as MD said Mr Tan wouldn't sell to a certain someone.
Now to me that's bad business as you donate to like someone to flog them something.

Because it’s 198 million less than what he wants maybe?

EDIT... £100M UP FRONT.
£1OOM ON GETTING TO PL.

No wonder he wouldn't sell LMFHAO.

Brilliant.

I would be very surprised if he was offered those figures though

Who knows Mac, just seen it on here a while back.

Some very interesting posts on this thread grangeend leading the way there.

My opinion we no where near sleeping giants. As mentioned we got good crowds in the prem but still quite easy to get tickets, the extras we sold were to watch the big teams play not Cardiff, it very much reminds of the nfl coming to London it’s irrelevant which teams come it was all about seeing the nfl. Watching Cardiff was irrelevant it was all about the other team except for the regular core of supporters.

As mentioned above I’d go back to Nubian in a heart beat we were as successful then trophy wise as we are now but without all the bad blood between fans and it was way more fun.

We are as big as we can be for true Cardiff fans.

Some very interesting posts on this thread grangeend leading the way there.

My opinion we no where near sleeping giants. As mentioned we got good crowds in the prem but still quite easy to get tickets, the extras we sold were to watch the big teams play not Cardiff, it very much reminds of the nfl coming to London it’s irrelevant which teams come it was all about seeing the nfl. Watching Cardiff was irrelevant it was all about the other team except for the regular core of supporters.

As mentioned above I’d go back to Nubian in a heart beat we were as successful then trophy wise as we are now but without all the bad blood between fans and it was way more fun.

We are as big as we can be for true Cardiff fans.

I know it's a matter of opinion on crowds but the data is there to support up to 40K, I won't summarise it all again as it's all there. The key thing is to remember that sustainable PL status is realistically achievable, the max crowd numbers are of course relevant but not the main thrust as would equate to a side income compared to the big PL revenue streams. Circa 17k is our current, core 27K average or 40K is a reasonable expectation or somewhere in between that but again, it's not the crowd numbers, it's the PL sustainability that is the goal here and it's achievable if mangaged effectively.

Wow didn’t think I’d get that response from my first post cheers boys

Some very interesting posts on this thread grangeend leading the way there.

My opinion we no where near sleeping giants. As mentioned we got good crowds in the prem but still quite easy to get tickets, the extras we sold were to watch the big teams play not Cardiff, it very much reminds of the nfl coming to London it’s irrelevant which teams come it was all about seeing the nfl. Watching Cardiff was irrelevant it was all about the other team except for the regular core of supporters.

As mentioned above I’d go back to Nubian in a heart beat we were as successful then trophy wise as we are now but without all the bad blood between fans and it was way more fun.

We are as big as we can be for true Cardiff fans.

I know it's a matter of opinion on crowds but the data is there to support up to 40K, I won't summarise it all again as it's all there. The key thing is to remember that sustainable PL status is realistically achievable, the max crowd numbers are of course relevant but not the main thrust as would equate to a side income compared to the big PL revenue streams. Circa 17k is our current, core 27K average or 40K is a reasonable expectation or somewhere in between that but again, it's not the crowd numbers, it's the PL sustainability that is the goal here and it's achievable if mangaged effectively.

It’s all quite hypothetical I think. As you said 40k has little impact on revenue in the prem and we were there.

You say a stroke of a pen and everything will be ok but it isn’t as easy as that.

Wow didn’t think I’d get that response from my first post cheers boys

I'm looking forward to your second post as you've raised a high bar!

But seriously, I know I've written a lot but it's all based on data which is almost all can be referenced for accuracy, reason and logic. It's a topic that often comes up and many of us have thought deeply about and continue to do so.

It's important not to lose the vision of what we can be compared to what we are now, constantly firefighting as opposed to building. We are in a geographically unique position for a potential catchment area of 1.5M and a single club capital city that hosts world class events.

Tan and Dalman see this potential and they still do, otherwise they wouldn't still be here, as PL success is the only way Vinnie get his money back and walks, which is all he wants. The simply just need to get a proven person in to run the football show, watch the magic and theatre happen, get weighed in and then move on. Vinnie said he'd leave the club in a better condition than he found it, and as the Mandalorians say, "This Is The Way".

Some very interesting posts on this thread grangeend leading the way there.

My opinion we no where near sleeping giants. As mentioned we got good crowds in the prem but still quite easy to get tickets, the extras we sold were to watch the big teams play not Cardiff, it very much reminds of the nfl coming to London it’s irrelevant which teams come it was all about seeing the nfl. Watching Cardiff was irrelevant it was all about the other team except for the regular core of supporters.

As mentioned above I’d go back to Nubian in a heart beat we were as successful then trophy wise as we are now but without all the bad blood between fans and it was way more fun.

We are as big as we can be for true Cardiff fans.

I know it's a matter of opinion on crowds but the data is there to support up to 40K, I won't summarise it all again as it's all there. The key thing is to remember that sustainable PL status is realistically achievable, the max crowd numbers are of course relevant but not the main thrust as would equate to a side income compared to the big PL revenue streams. Circa 17k is our current, core 27K average or 40K is a reasonable expectation or somewhere in between that but again, it's not the crowd numbers, it's the PL sustainability that is the goal here and it's achievable if mangaged effectively.

So what do you see as being a giant?
Being in the premier league top 10 season after season improving. Or regular crowds of 40k plus irrelevant of position and league?
BTW I totally agree that money from supporters is loose change for premier league clubs.

Some very interesting posts on this thread grangeend leading the way there.

My opinion we no where near sleeping giants. As mentioned we got good crowds in the prem but still quite easy to get tickets, the extras we sold were to watch the big teams play not Cardiff, it very much reminds of the nfl coming to London it’s irrelevant which teams come it was all about seeing the nfl. Watching Cardiff was irrelevant it was all about the other team except for the regular core of supporters.

As mentioned above I’d go back to Nubian in a heart beat we were as successful then trophy wise as we are now but without all the bad blood between fans and it was way more fun.

We are as big as we can be for true Cardiff fans.

I know it's a matter of opinion on crowds but the data is there to support up to 40K, I won't summarise it all again as it's all there. The key thing is to remember that sustainable PL status is realistically achievable, the max crowd numbers are of course relevant but not the main thrust as would equate to a side income compared to the big PL revenue streams. Circa 17k is our current, core 27K average or 40K is a reasonable expectation or somewhere in between that but again, it's not the crowd numbers, it's the PL sustainability that is the goal here and it's achievable if mangaged effectively.

So what do you see as being a giant?
Being in the premier league top 10 season after season improving. Or regular crowds of 40k plus irrelevant of position and league?
BTW I totally agree that money from supporters is loose change for premier league clubs.

I think we can get to top 10 and sustain it in phase one of a 3-5 year plan. The crowds are of course debatable and would vary but I do believe over time, 7 years, our core would also grow pro rata even in low performance periods and no longer be 'floaters'.

It's probably a bad example but Celtic come to mind as a kinda benchmark, capital city club, big fan base, European jaunts etc. I could see us a bit like that.

The second phase would then be a result of being attractive to real money, eclipsing Tans wealth after we have a achieved phase one. And given all the above and again being efficiently and effectively managed and invested, over time, I think we could be pleasantly surprised.

But whatever the future and what I and many think has significant potential and realistic growth based on the things I've highlighted, VT isn't going to get to phase one as he keeps repeating the same mistakes. He needs proven help to get there, as the present system simply doesn't work. This pattern will continue. Not a DoF or SD, but someone to run the whole football show for him. It's that easy and can be done in a heartbeat.

Wow didn’t think I’d get that response from my first post cheers boys

If a topic is good enough...!

Some very interesting posts on this thread grangeend leading the way there.

My opinion we no where near sleeping giants. As mentioned we got good crowds in the prem but still quite easy to get tickets, the extras we sold were to watch the big teams play not Cardiff, it very much reminds of the nfl coming to London it’s irrelevant which teams come it was all about seeing the nfl. Watching Cardiff was irrelevant it was all about the other team except for the regular core of supporters.

As mentioned above I’d go back to Nubian in a heart beat we were as successful then trophy wise as we are now but without all the bad blood between fans and it was way more fun.

We are as big as we can be for true Cardiff fans.

I know it's a matter of opinion on crowds but the data is there to support up to 40K, I won't summarise it all again as it's all there. The key thing is to remember that sustainable PL status is realistically achievable, the max crowd numbers are of course relevant but not the main thrust as would equate to a side income compared to the big PL revenue streams. Circa 17k is our current, core 27K average or 40K is a reasonable expectation or somewhere in between that but again, it's not the crowd numbers, it's the PL sustainability that is the goal here and it's achievable if mangaged effectively.

So what do you see as being a giant?
Being in the premier league top 10 season after season improving. Or regular crowds of 40k plus irrelevant of position and league?
BTW I totally agree that money from supporters is loose change for premier league clubs.

I think we can get to top 10 and sustain it in phase one of a 3-5 year plan. The crowds are of course debatable and would vary but I do believe over time, 7 years, our core would also grow pro rata even in low performance periods and no longer be 'floaters'.

It's probably a bad example but Celtic come to mind as a kinda benchmark, capital city club, big fan base, European jaunts etc. I could see us a bit like that.

The second phase would then be a result of being attractive to real money, eclipsing Tans wealth after we have a achieved phase one. And given all the above and again being efficiently and effectively managed and invested, over time, I think we could be pleasantly surprised.

But whatever the future and what I and many think has significant potential and realistic growth based on the things I've highlighted, VT isn't going to get to phase one as he keeps repeating the same mistakes. He needs proven help to get there, as the present system simply doesn't work. This pattern will continue. Not a DoF or SD, but someone to run the whole football show for him. It's that easy and can be done in a heartbeat.

So what is this one thing he can do that will change everything in a heartbeat/stroke of a pen?

Some very interesting posts on this thread grangeend leading the way there.

My opinion we no where near sleeping giants. As mentioned we got good crowds in the prem but still quite easy to get tickets, the extras we sold were to watch the big teams play not Cardiff, it very much reminds of the nfl coming to London it’s irrelevant which teams come it was all about seeing the nfl. Watching Cardiff was irrelevant it was all about the other team except for the regular core of supporters.

As mentioned above I’d go back to Nubian in a heart beat we were as successful then trophy wise as we are now but without all the bad blood between fans and it was way more fun.

We are as big as we can be for true Cardiff fans.

I know it's a matter of opinion on crowds but the data is there to support up to 40K, I won't summarise it all again as it's all there. The key thing is to remember that sustainable PL status is realistically achievable, the max crowd numbers are of course relevant but not the main thrust as would equate to a side income compared to the big PL revenue streams. Circa 17k is our current, core 27K average or 40K is a reasonable expectation or somewhere in between that but again, it's not the crowd numbers, it's the PL sustainability that is the goal here and it's achievable if mangaged effectively.

So what do you see as being a giant?
Being in the premier league top 10 season after season improving. Or regular crowds of 40k plus irrelevant of position and league?
BTW I totally agree that money from supporters is loose change for premier league clubs.

I think we can get to top 10 and sustain it in phase one of a 3-5 year plan. The crowds are of course debatable and would vary but I do believe over time, 7 years, our core would also grow pro rata even in low performance periods and no longer be 'floaters'.

It's probably a bad example but Celtic come to mind as a kinda benchmark, capital city club, big fan base, European jaunts etc. I could see us a bit like that.

The second phase would then be a result of being attractive to real money, eclipsing Tans wealth after we have a achieved phase one. And given all the above and again being efficiently and effectively managed and invested, over time, I think we could be pleasantly surprised.

But whatever the future and what I and many think has significant potential and realistic growth based on the things I've highlighted, VT isn't going to get to phase one as he keeps repeating the same mistakes. He needs proven help to get there, as the present system simply doesn't work. This pattern will continue. Not a DoF or SD, but someone to run the whole football show for him. It's that easy and can be done in a heartbeat.

Yep Celtic are indeed a bad example, mostly because they are not a capital city club !