' POLL ' How would you vote on eu today?

Leaving the UK is a long term aim, Wales isn't ready to take that step yet, our economy is not strong enough, our infrastructure needs developing and obviously our electorate don't want it at the moment. I want to say in the EU because Wales benefits more from Europe than we do from England. Do you really believe Westminster will invest that kind of money in Wales? They don't even match fund the EU money as they're meant to!

You might think this is a contradiction, but I make my decision by what's right for Wales, nothing else. I'm Welsh, England doesn't interest me in the least. As I've stated in other posts leaving the EU might benefit parts of England but that simply isn't true of Wales.

"We benefit more from the EU than we do England" - Wow. Whilst I agree with you that Westminster will not replace the money that the EU grants to Wales and that Westminster as neglected parts of Wales (Labour sqaundering money down the bay is partly to blame for this too) but to say we get more money from the EU than we do from being part of the UK is just drivel. Take your head for shit because that is the biggest load of nonsense I have read on here. Oh and also in 2019 they are reviewing this funding model and your beloved EU are likely to cut our funding and bump us up a category, take a look if you don't believe me. The EU windfall is about to come to an abrupt end.

You haven't really answered the question though, Wales will not be part of the EU if we left the UK and we are very unlikely to be able to join too. It's a question Salmond couldn't answer. Spain and other countries with seperatist minorities will not allow us to join, they have a veto on any vote to let us enter. You want to see us out of the UK and out of the EU.

The more I think about the campaigns the bemused I am by people wanting to vote for leave.

You ask remain what will happen when they win and they can tell you.

Yet you ask leave what will happen when we leave they don't have a clue lol. Where else in the world would anyone vote for a party who doesn't know what's going to happen or what they going to do if they win over a party that know what will happen and know what they going to do.

It's crazy the more I think about it the more I think uk citizens need to be govern more by outside figures because we embarrassing ourselves at the moment.

We don't know what will happen if we stay either. The EU will certainly get larger in time. The wealthier countries will have to subsidise the poorer ones, and we have already seen the down side of things with Greece and Ireland in recent years. The EU does'nt have it's own money, it's all ours, the tax payers of every country. It seems as if paying tax has been optional in countries like Greece, and so who's money is used to bail them out. Hard not to see this happening again in the future.

You can say that about everything in life. I'm afraid it doesn't wash that's you trying to bring remain campaign down to the leaves level.
We may not know what will happen in 10 years but we know what will happen and what we doing with the eu if we remain the next day. With leave it's a mystery that's self inflicted straight away. It's desperation to say the remain campaign doesn't know what going to happen. But that said desperate clueless people will do desperate clueless things. Shame leave have no substance to focus on.

What annoys me is the 'project fear'/'scaremongering' that the remain side are being labelled with.

Nobody can tell what will happen if the UK leaves the EU, but what is almost guaranteed (backed up by most economists, the BoE, IFS etc) is that it will cause an economic shock at least in the short term. The GBP is likely to fall against the EUR/USD, house prices will likely be affected due to the uncertainty, and we'd probably fall back into recession.

Long term I'm sure that once the UK economy has been rebuilt there could be many benefits of being outside the EU (as there as remaining in it), but it's almost guaranteed that at least in the short term we will be affected until the mess is sorted out.

This is not 'project fear' but reality. Nobody knows what will happen if we leave, which is part of the argument for remaining, but you can't call that scare tactics. If somebody could tell me exactly what is going to happen then it would be easier to make a decision, but when the alternative is an unknown situation that in itself is something people should be worrying about.

Correct no-one can say for certain what will happen if the UK left the EU but we can look at countries like Switzerland and Norway as possible examples. Last time I checked their currencies were doing fine and their economies are performing much better than 90% of the Eurozone and they were trading with EU and the rest of the world.

I can remember the 2001 General Election when that Tory Toff William Hague stood pathetically on a soapbox and repeatedly told us we had hours to 'save the pound'

Strangely 15 years on and the good old pound is still going This is why the Tories are labelled with project fear because they have cried wolf so many times in the past.

The 2 figure heads head for leave are Tory,s so why are they not running a project fear in you view? Couldn't write it what a whopper.

You problem tony you only see things to fit your agenda time after time. Used to think you post were well thought out and balanced. They are anything but that. You want every every which way.

L

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I've missed these wez thanks. Pretty colours with brainwashing messages. Tory lead project scare at it's best

In in in!! Don't give in to the scaremongering

What annoys me is the 'project fear'/'scaremongering' that the remain side are being labelled with.

Nobody can tell what will happen if the UK leaves the EU, but what is almost guaranteed (backed up by most economists, the BoE, IFS etc) is that it will cause an economic shock at least in the short term. The GBP is likely to fall against the EUR/USD, house prices will likely be affected due to the uncertainty, and we'd probably fall back into recession.

Long term I'm sure that once the UK economy has been rebuilt there could be many benefits of being outside the EU (as there as remaining in it), but it's almost guaranteed that at least in the short term we will be affected until the mess is sorted out.

This is not 'project fear' but reality. Nobody knows what will happen if we leave, which is part of the argument for remaining, but you can't call that scare tactics. If somebody could tell me exactly what is going to happen then it would be easier to make a decision, but when the alternative is an unknown situation that in itself is something people should be worrying about.

Correct no-one can say for certain what will happen if the UK left the EU but we can look at countries like Switzerland and Norway as possible examples. Last time I checked their currencies were doing fine and their economies are performing much better than 90% of the Eurozone and they were trading with EU and the rest of the world.

I can remember the 2001 General Election when that Tory Toff William Hague stood pathetically on a soapbox and repeatedly told us we had hours to 'save the pound'

Strangely 15 years on and the good old pound is still going This is why the Tories are labelled with project fear because they have cried wolf so many times in the past.

The 2 figure heads head for leave are Tory,s so why are they not running a project fear in you view? Couldn't write it what a whopper.

You problem tony you only see things to fit your agenda time after time. Used to think you post were well thought out and balanced. They are anything but that. You want every every which way.

And your problem Bluebird-77 is when you have lost an argument you revert to personal attacks

Just to answer your point rather than answering it for me I don't think either campaign has covered itself in glory. I have based my opinion on an objective view which is the EU is fundamentally undemocratic and institutionally corrupt as it has failed to have it's internal accounts signed off by auditors for the past 25 years and laws are pasted by an unelected EU Commission and only rubber stamped by the powerless EU Parliament.

I cannot bring myself to endorse an organisation which operates like that.

By the way what does "you want every every which way" mean Talk about whoppers

What annoys me is the 'project fear'/'scaremongering' that the remain side are being labelled with.

Nobody can tell what will happen if the UK leaves the EU, but what is almost guaranteed (backed up by most economists, the BoE, IFS etc) is that it will cause an economic shock at least in the short term. The GBP is likely to fall against the EUR/USD, house prices will likely be affected due to the uncertainty, and we'd probably fall back into recession.

Long term I'm sure that once the UK economy has been rebuilt there could be many benefits of being outside the EU (as there as remaining in it), but it's almost guaranteed that at least in the short term we will be affected until the mess is sorted out.

This is not 'project fear' but reality. Nobody knows what will happen if we leave, which is part of the argument for remaining, but you can't call that scare tactics. If somebody could tell me exactly what is going to happen then it would be easier to make a decision, but when the alternative is an unknown situation that in itself is something people should be worrying about.

Correct no-one can say for certain what will happen if the UK left the EU but we can look at countries like Switzerland and Norway as possible examples. Last time I checked their currencies were doing fine and their economies are performing much better than 90% of the Eurozone and they were trading with EU and the rest of the world.

I can remember the 2001 General Election when that Tory Toff William Hague stood pathetically on a soapbox and repeatedly told us we had hours to 'save the pound'

Strangely 15 years on and the good old pound is still going This is why the Tories are labelled with project fear because they have cried wolf so many times in the past.

Yes, but you don't suddenly become Switzerland or Norway overnight.

As I said, in the long term I'm sure the UK would be fine, but there is no doubting that the pound would take a battering initially, purely because of the huge unknown surrounding us leaving the EU. Things would stabilise, but I wouldn't want to guess how long it might take.

I wouldn't say it was the Tories behind project fear either. A brexit vote would almost certainly pave the way for Boris at no10. Worryingly plenty of people seem to think that would be a good result.

The pound has taken a battering in the past and recovered. Apart from exchanging money for holiday's I haven't noticed any direct affects on daily lives, indeed exporters are always glad as our goods and services become cheaper to sell abroad.

Obviously there would be a transitional period as we exited the EU but no way is it going to be the Armageddon predicted by the remain campaign and as you concede we would eventually thrive just like Norway and Switzerland do outside the EU.

I would concede that BOTH sides have had poor campaigns. My bottom line is I can't vote for a status quo of an unelected EU Commission passing laws with no accountability to the EU electorate and the fact that this institution has failed to have it's internal accounts signed off for the past 25 years and frankly it is mind blowing why anyone would?

Hmmmmm

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Voting to leave is like being a turkey voting for Christmas. May as well slit your own throats now and be done.

Together. Stronger.

I have spoken to the head honcho of Morgan Stanley UK and he states it would be the worst scenario possible to leave. Jobs would go everywhere and foreign investment into the country, that is vital, would dry up.

For a small economy like Wales it would be awful.

However, I doubt if anyone will take any notice of my views. Peoples views are so entrenched.

Voting to leave is like being a turkey voting for Christmas. May as well slit your own throats now and be done.

Together. Stronger.

I have spoken to the head honcho of Morgan Stanley UK and he states it would be the worst scenario possible to leave. Jobs would go everywhere and foreign investment into the country, that is vital, would dry up.

For a small economy like Wales it would be awful.

However, I doubt if anyone will take any notice of my views. Peoples views are so entrenched.

Bullshit same company said that would happen if we didn't join the euro ,the European union apart from Germany is in free fall and bankrupt

Voting to leave is like being a turkey voting for Christmas. May as well slit your own throats now and be done.

Together. Stronger.

I have spoken to the head honcho of Morgan Stanley UK and he states it would be the worst scenario possible to leave. Jobs would go everywhere and foreign investment into the country, that is vital, would dry up.

For a small economy like Wales it would be awful.

However, I doubt if anyone will take any notice of my views. Peoples views are so entrenched.

Bullshit same company said that would happen if we didn't join the euro ,the European union apart from Germany is in free fall and bankrupt

He told me, that by law, 1,500 jobs at MS would have to be relocated to Europe if we vote leave. Surely, that can't be good.

And, Switzerland is a tax haven so I can't see how they can be compared to the UK

Voting to leave is like being a turkey voting for Christmas. May as well slit your own throats now and be done.

Together. Stronger.

I have spoken to the head honcho of Morgan Stanley UK and he states it would be the worst scenario possible to leave. Jobs would go everywhere and foreign investment into the country, that is vital, would dry up.

For a small economy like Wales it would be awful.

However, I doubt if anyone will take any notice of my views. Peoples views are so entrenched.

In other words he was giving an opinion based on the best interests of Morgan Stanley. Fine if your concern is for the banking sector which caused the 2008 world financial crash then that's your choice.

Also these jobs just where would they disappear from the banking sector? or generally?

Foreign investment would completely dry up? I really don't think that is correct unless he was again referring just to Morgan Stanley. This is a classic example of scaring people into voting into staying.

Voting to leave is like being a turkey voting for Christmas. May as well slit your own throats now and be done.

Together. Stronger.

I have spoken to the head honcho of Morgan Stanley UK and he states it would be the worst scenario possible to leave. Jobs would go everywhere and foreign investment into the country, that is vital, would dry up.

For a small economy like Wales it would be awful.

However, I doubt if anyone will take any notice of my views. Peoples views are so entrenched.

In other words he was giving an opinion based on the best interests of Morgan Stanley. Fine if your concern is for the banking sector which caused the 2008 world financial crash then that's your choice.

Also these jobs just where would they disappear from the banking sector? or generally?

Foreign investment would completely dry up? I really don't think that is correct unless he was again referring just to Morgan Stanley. This is a classic example of scaring people into voting into staying.

I'm not sure that stating facts is scaring people into staying. I'm no fan of bankers either btw.

May have got my facts bit wrong, but he said that Morgan Stanley employ 10,000 people in this London and Scotland. 1,500 of those would go.

Voting to leave is like being a turkey voting for Christmas. May as well slit your own throats now and be done.

Together. Stronger.

I have spoken to the head honcho of Morgan Stanley UK and he states it would be the worst scenario possible to leave. Jobs would go everywhere and foreign investment into the country, that is vital, would dry up.

For a small economy like Wales it would be awful.

However, I doubt if anyone will take any notice of my views. Peoples views are so entrenched.

Bullshit same company said that would happen if we didn't join the euro ,the European union apart from Germany is in free fall and bankrupt

He told me, that by law, 1,500 jobs at MS would have to be relocated to Europe if we vote leave. Surely, that can't be good.

And, Switzerland is a tax haven so I can't see how they can be compared to the UK

And other company's and country's have said they would invest more too so it's swings and roundabout s

Odds, as it stands

http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/bri ... hip-result


Remain 1-3

Leave 5-2

Don't know the relevance of these figures really other than it's odds on to remain

Voting to leave is like being a turkey voting for Christmas. May as well slit your own throats now and be done.

Together. Stronger.

I have spoken to the head honcho of Morgan Stanley UK and he states it would be the worst scenario possible to leave. Jobs would go everywhere and foreign investment into the country, that is vital, would dry up.

For a small economy like Wales it would be awful.

However, I doubt if anyone will take any notice of my views. Peoples views are so entrenched.

Bullshit same company said that would happen if we didn't join the euro ,the European union apart from Germany is in free fall and bankrupt

He told me, that by law, 1,500 jobs at MS would have to be relocated to Europe if we vote leave. Surely, that can't be good.

And, Switzerland is a tax haven so I can't see how they can be compared to the UK

And other company's and country's have said they would invest more too so it's swings and roundabout s

Totally agree

Truth is, nobody reaaly knows, do they

Hmmmmm

And is has the highest living costs in Europe.

Check out their own upcoming referendum. Barmy.

Switzerland is a tax haven, with a completely different economy to our own. Impossible to compare them, and not a country I'd like to emulate!

The pound has taken a battering in the past and recovered. Apart from exchanging money for holiday's I haven't noticed any direct affects on daily lives, indeed exporters are always glad as our goods and services become cheaper to sell abroad.

Obviously there would be a transitional period as we exited the EU but no way is it going to be the Armageddon predicted by the remain campaign and as you concede we would eventually thrive just like Norway and Switzerland do outside the EU.

I would concede that BOTH sides have had poor campaigns. My bottom line is I can't vote for a status quo of an unelected EU Commission passing laws with no accountability to the EU electorate and the fact that this institution has failed to have it's internal accounts signed off for the past 25 years and frankly it is mind blowing why anyone would?

Well if you think that's the only effect of a weak currency then good luck to you.

Odds, as it stands

http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/bri ... hip-result


Remain 1-3

Leave 5-2

Don't know the relevance of these figures really other than it's odds on to remain

Its a queer one alright as some polls got it just about even.In a 2 horse race I can't recall the bookies getting it that wrong.You would think at those odds the "remain"campaign were pissing it but all other sources think its much closer.

The pound has taken a battering in the past and recovered. Apart from exchanging money for holiday's I haven't noticed any direct affects on daily lives, indeed exporters are always glad as our goods and services become cheaper to sell abroad.

Obviously there would be a transitional period as we exited the EU but no way is it going to be the Armageddon predicted by the remain campaign and as you concede we would eventually thrive just like Norway and Switzerland do outside the EU.

I would concede that BOTH sides have had poor campaigns. My bottom line is I can't vote for a status quo of an unelected EU Commission passing laws with no accountability to the EU electorate and the fact that this institution has failed to have it's internal accounts signed off for the past 25 years and frankly it is mind blowing why anyone would?

Well if you think that's the only effect of a weak currency then good luck to you.

I am confident your end of the world scenario is not going to happen. The UK will be doing Europe a favour by getting out as they will finally have to man up to their shortcomings.

Hmmmmm

And is has the highest living costs in Europe.

Check out their own upcoming referendum. Barmy.

Switzerland is a tax haven, with a completely different economy to our own. Impossible to compare them, and not a country I'd like to emulate!

So a better bet is to stay in and link up with an economy like Greece or Italy, Spain and Portugal which are also on the brink of collapse

Believe what you want, but you're coming across as some with very blinkered views seeing as you were undecided up until recently.

Why do all the lefties love the EU? They a democratically elected far left government in Europe because they didn't like what the GREEK PEOPLE voted for, no to austerity but 50 years of austerity has now been thrust on them by unelected bureaucrats. It works for the big corporations against the peoples interest. I await the howls of derision from the left when TTIP takes hold.

I'm not a lefty by the way nor do I love the eu, but I'm not a tabloid reading xenophobe either.

Hmmmmm

And is has the highest living costs in Europe.

Check out their own upcoming referendum. Barmy.

Switzerland is a tax haven, with a completely different economy to our own. Impossible to compare them, and not a country I'd like to emulate!

I agree Owain. Switzerland operates by different rules. It also has 3 levels of taxation - Community, Canton, Federal, this means that Cantons compete with each other to attract business - by offering lower tax rates!

There is also an issue of Scale. Switzerland has 9m people, compared to +60m in the UK.

On the LEAVE side the only thing that I have seen that looks vaguely convincing in the following video....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfEo_TNllk4

However, it is a lot easier to Theorise than to Execute, so I am not sure we could execute this plan.

What annoys me is the 'project fear'/'scaremongering' that the remain side are being labelled with.

Nobody can tell what will happen if the UK leaves the EU, but what is almost guaranteed (backed up by most economists, the BoE, IFS etc) is that it will cause an economic shock at least in the short term. The GBP is likely to fall against the EUR/USD, house prices will likely be affected due to the uncertainty, and we'd probably fall back into recession.

Long term I'm sure that once the UK economy has been rebuilt there could be many benefits of being outside the EU (as there as remaining in it), but it's almost guaranteed that at least in the short term we will be affected until the mess is sorted out.

This is not 'project fear' but reality. Nobody knows what will happen if we leave, which is part of the argument for remaining, but you can't call that scare tactics. If somebody could tell me exactly what is going to happen then it would be easier to make a decision, but when the alternative is an unknown situation that in itself is something people should be worrying about.

Correct no-one can say for certain what will happen if the UK left the EU but we can look at countries like Switzerland and Norway as possible examples. Last time I checked their currencies were doing fine and their economies are performing much better than 90% of the Eurozone and they were trading with EU and the rest of the world.

I can remember the 2001 General Election when that Tory Toff William Hague stood pathetically on a soapbox and repeatedly told us we had hours to 'save the pound'

Strangely 15 years on and the good old pound is still going This is why the Tories are labelled with project fear because they have cried wolf so many times in the past.

Yes, but you don't suddenly become Switzerland or Norway overnight.

As I said, in the long term I'm sure the UK would be fine, but there is no doubting that the pound would take a battering initially, purely because of the huge unknown surrounding us leaving the EU. Things would stabilise, but I wouldn't want to guess how long it might take.

I wouldn't say it was the Tories behind project fear either. A brexit vote would almost certainly pave the way for Boris at no10. Worryingly plenty of people seem to think that would be a good result.

The pound has taken a battering in the past and recovered. Apart from exchanging money for holiday's I haven't noticed any direct affects on daily lives, indeed exporters are always glad as our goods and services become cheaper to sell abroad.

Obviously there would be a transitional period as we exited the EU but no way is it going to be the Armageddon predicted by the remain campaign and as you concede we would eventually thrive just like Norway and Switzerland do outside the EU.

I would concede that BOTH sides have had poor campaigns. My bottom line is I can't vote for a status quo of an unelected EU Commission passing laws with no accountability to the EU electorate and the fact that this institution has failed to have it's internal accounts signed off for the past 25 years and frankly it is mind blowing why anyone would?

You are as usual spot on here Tony as for most of us the exchange rate for £ is only of interest when you exchange money for holidays, and as exchange rates have historically been volatile there are benefits whenever the £ is strong as well as when it's week.

Many have short memories as it was just 8 years ago that in terms of tourist exchange rates the £ bought less than 1 euro, that was in 2008, 4 years earlier £ bought 1.62 euro and today £ would buy 1.28 euro. George Osbourne said only the other day that a vote to leave would see a 10% drop in the value of the pound and if that is the stuff of Armageddon well the £ would still be stronger than in 2008. So what's the problem as ever since the Bretton Woods agreement back in 1944 international currencies have floated against one another and it's only when "National" interest takes over, like when Richard Nixon changed ALL the agreed rules to suit the USA overnight, that you gets blips, but guess what a new order is created and things recover.

The IMF pretty much came into being by the Bretton Woods agreement and it should surprise nobody that they are against Brexit, Why because they don't like Blips and they know that without the UK ploughing Billions every year into this fruitloop organisation the effect on the eurozone could be as bad if not worse than the effect on the £. Exactly what this effect will be time wiil tell but as always a new order will be created and things will recover.

It is a fact that the EU in ALL the years it has existed is yet to strike a deal with any of the top 10 biggest economies, including USA, China and Japan, but the EU is proud to claim a negotiated free trade agreement with the Faroe Islands.

Australia have recently signed free trade agreements with USA, China and Japan and on leaving the EU we would be free to do absolutely the same thing. I bet Russia would love to sign a free trade agreement with us if for no other reason than sticking a finger up to Obama for saying we would be at the "Back of queue".

The economies of the USA, China and Japan together make the EU look like a welfare case and I have no doubt our long term future lies in being free to trade with them as well as every other country outside the EU.

There may be a blip but as always a new order will be created and this country will absolutely comeback stronger. That's why I have already voted to Leave.

Think you missed a chance to add in a few more "new orders"

It's a vote for us to leave whether we leave or not will not have as much if any effect on the eu compared to how the vote effects a little country like ours. That only really have services to offer.

It's the wrong referendum. Cymru mas o Prydain! Most of our problems come from still being a part of the British State, which is intrinsically unequal and benefits only the rich. We need out of Britain more than out of the EU.

Independence for Wales asap and stay in Europe.