“ SLEEPING GIANTS “

Some very interesting posts on this thread grangeend leading the way there.

My opinion we no where near sleeping giants. As mentioned we got good crowds in the prem but still quite easy to get tickets, the extras we sold were to watch the big teams play not Cardiff, it very much reminds of the nfl coming to London it’s irrelevant which teams come it was all about seeing the nfl. Watching Cardiff was irrelevant it was all about the other team except for the regular core of supporters.

As mentioned above I’d go back to Nubian in a heart beat we were as successful then trophy wise as we are now but without all the bad blood between fans and it was way more fun.

We are as big as we can be for true Cardiff fans.

I know it's a matter of opinion on crowds but the data is there to support up to 40K, I won't summarise it all again as it's all there. The key thing is to remember that sustainable PL status is realistically achievable, the max crowd numbers are of course relevant but not the main thrust as would equate to a side income compared to the big PL revenue streams. Circa 17k is our current, core 27K average or 40K is a reasonable expectation or somewhere in between that but again, it's not the crowd numbers, it's the PL sustainability that is the goal here and it's achievable if mangaged effectively.

So what do you see as being a giant?
Being in the premier league top 10 season after season improving. Or regular crowds of 40k plus irrelevant of position and league?
BTW I totally agree that money from supporters is loose change for premier league clubs.

I think we can get to top 10 and sustain it in phase one of a 3-5 year plan. The crowds are of course debatable and would vary but I do believe over time, 7 years, our core would also grow pro rata even in low performance periods and no longer be 'floaters'.

It's probably a bad example but Celtic come to mind as a kinda benchmark, capital city club, big fan base, European jaunts etc. I could see us a bit like that.

The second phase would then be a result of being attractive to real money, eclipsing Tans wealth after we have a achieved phase one. And given all the above and again being efficiently and effectively managed and invested, over time, I think we could be pleasantly surprised.

But whatever the future and what I and many think has significant potential and realistic growth based on the things I've highlighted, VT isn't going to get to phase one as he keeps repeating the same mistakes. He needs proven help to get there, as the present system simply doesn't work. This pattern will continue. Not a DoF or SD, but someone to run the whole football show for him. It's that easy and can be done in a heartbeat.

Yep Celtic are indeed a bad example, mostly because they are not a capital city club !

Thanks for pointing that out, I just realised but in my defense I am ill and tired! It's a bad example but it's in the spirit of what I was being asked if you know what I mean.

Some very interesting posts on this thread grangeend leading the way there.

My opinion we no where near sleeping giants. As mentioned we got good crowds in the prem but still quite easy to get tickets, the extras we sold were to watch the big teams play not Cardiff, it very much reminds of the nfl coming to London it’s irrelevant which teams come it was all about seeing the nfl. Watching Cardiff was irrelevant it was all about the other team except for the regular core of supporters.

As mentioned above I’d go back to Nubian in a heart beat we were as successful then trophy wise as we are now but without all the bad blood between fans and it was way more fun.

We are as big as we can be for true Cardiff fans.

I know it's a matter of opinion on crowds but the data is there to support up to 40K, I won't summarise it all again as it's all there. The key thing is to remember that sustainable PL status is realistically achievable, the max crowd numbers are of course relevant but not the main thrust as would equate to a side income compared to the big PL revenue streams. Circa 17k is our current, core 27K average or 40K is a reasonable expectation or somewhere in between that but again, it's not the crowd numbers, it's the PL sustainability that is the goal here and it's achievable if mangaged effectively.

So what do you see as being a giant?
Being in the premier league top 10 season after season improving. Or regular crowds of 40k plus irrelevant of position and league?
BTW I totally agree that money from supporters is loose change for premier league clubs.

I think we can get to top 10 and sustain it in phase one of a 3-5 year plan. The crowds are of course debatable and would vary but I do believe over time, 7 years, our core would also grow pro rata even in low performance periods and no longer be 'floaters'.

It's probably a bad example but Celtic come to mind as a kinda benchmark, capital city club, big fan base, European jaunts etc. I could see us a bit like that.

The second phase would then be a result of being attractive to real money, eclipsing Tans wealth after we have a achieved phase one. And given all the above and again being efficiently and effectively managed and invested, over time, I think we could be pleasantly surprised.

But whatever the future and what I and many think has significant potential and realistic growth based on the things I've highlighted, VT isn't going to get to phase one as he keeps repeating the same mistakes. He needs proven help to get there, as the present system simply doesn't work. This pattern will continue. Not a DoF or SD, but someone to run the whole football show for him. It's that easy and can be done in a heartbeat.

Yep Celtic are indeed a bad example, mostly because they are not a capital city club !

Thanks for pointing that out, I just realised but in my defense I am ill and tired! It's a bad example but it's in the spirit of what I was being asked if you know what I mean.

You're forgiven and get well soon !

Annis, I would back over the road in a heartbeat.
Progress they call it lol.
Back on topic, saying we had full stadiums whilst in PL proves the point that the game and fans are fickle, look at the meltdown on here lately.

Jules and I would , I would even come back way more if we were still at Ninian Park.

CCS is Soulless.

Yes our fans deserted way way to quick.

CCS isn't Soulless for Wales games. I blame the drum (but may get lynched for that) and that these millenials would rather play xbox than fire lager into them!

We're definately a sleeping giant with huge potential. I saw a 10 year old walking around South Wales in a Saudi football shirt the other week; even the middle east are now taking some of our (potential) shirt sales!

We most definitely are not sleeping giants. First we’d have to be giants that have fallen asleep we haven’t come close to being giants.
I would say there are only 3teams that could be classed as giants in the whole of the uk.

Annis, I would back over the road in a heartbeat.
Progress they call it lol.
Back on topic, saying we had full stadiums whilst in PL proves the point that the game and fans are fickle, look at the meltdown on here lately.

Jules and I would , I would even come back way more if we were still at Ninian Park.

CCS is Soulless.

Yes our fans deserted way way to quick.

CCS isn't Soulless for Wales games. I blame the drum (but may get lynched for that) and that these millenials would rather play xbox than fire lager into them!

We're definately a sleeping giant with huge potential. I saw a 10 year old walking around South Wales in a Saudi football shirt the other week; even the middle east are now taking some of our (potential) shirt sales!

We most definitely are not sleeping giants. First we’d have to be giants that have fallen asleep we haven’t come close to being giants.
I would say there are only 3teams that could be classed as giants in the whole of the uk.

Agreed. I've never believed in this sleeping giant tag. In reality the club plays in an area where there is only one other league team within a 40 mile radius, so yes the crowd pulling potential is there but that's all it is.

Some very interesting posts on this thread grangeend leading the way there.

My opinion we no where near sleeping giants. As mentioned we got good crowds in the prem but still quite easy to get tickets, the extras we sold were to watch the big teams play not Cardiff, it very much reminds of the nfl coming to London it’s irrelevant which teams come it was all about seeing the nfl. Watching Cardiff was irrelevant it was all about the other team except for the regular core of supporters.

As mentioned above I’d go back to Nubian in a heart beat we were as successful then trophy wise as we are now but without all the bad blood between fans and it was way more fun.

We are as big as we can be for true Cardiff fans.

I know it's a matter of opinion on crowds but the data is there to support up to 40K, I won't summarise it all again as it's all there. The key thing is to remember that sustainable PL status is realistically achievable, the max crowd numbers are of course relevant but not the main thrust as would equate to a side income compared to the big PL revenue streams. Circa 17k is our current, core 27K average or 40K is a reasonable expectation or somewhere in between that but again, it's not the crowd numbers, it's the PL sustainability that is the goal here and it's achievable if mangaged effectively.

So what do you see as being a giant?
Being in the premier league top 10 season after season improving. Or regular crowds of 40k plus irrelevant of position and league?
BTW I totally agree that money from supporters is loose change for premier league clubs.

I think we can get to top 10 and sustain it in phase one of a 3-5 year plan. The crowds are of course debatable and would vary but I do believe over time, 7 years, our core would also grow pro rata even in low performance periods and no longer be 'floaters'.

It's probably a bad example but Celtic come to mind as a kinda benchmark, capital city club, big fan base, European jaunts etc. I could see us a bit like that.

The second phase would then be a result of being attractive to real money, eclipsing Tans wealth after we have a achieved phase one. And given all the above and again being efficiently and effectively managed and invested, over time, I think we could be pleasantly surprised.

But whatever the future and what I and many think has significant potential and realistic growth based on the things I've highlighted, VT isn't going to get to phase one as he keeps repeating the same mistakes. He needs proven help to get there, as the present system simply doesn't work. This pattern will continue. Not a DoF or SD, but someone to run the whole football show for him. It's that easy and can be done in a heartbeat.

So what is this one thing he can do that will change everything in a heartbeat/stroke of a pen?

There are a number of teams who try that.

Hi Moody and Ice. Thanks for your opinions on this. I'm not going to write more on your last specific questions, only because all the info and data you need that support that we can be a significant sustainable PL club has been previously discussed at length, why, how, who etc, it's been a long but interesting thread and no point repeating what has already been discussed unless its new information or a question that hasn't been answered previously of course.

This is a topic that often comes up and it does divide opinion, mine firmly is in the positive for all the detailed reasons discussed after discussions with credible industry pro's, which I am certainly not, but which has further helped me to arrive at the conviction that we can realistically be a much bigger club and for a sustained period.

"Sleeping Giant" is really only a figure of speech and open to interpretation and, I think we all know that we can and should be better and "bigger", to what degree is always going to be a matter of personal opinion but it's a good thing to discuss it in detail, which we are and some valid points raised.

Hi Moody and Ice. Thanks for your opinions on this. I'm not going to write more on your last specific questions, only because all the info and data you need that support that we can be a significant sustainable PL club has been previously discussed at length, why, how, who etc, it's been a long but interesting thread and no point repeating what has already been discussed unless its new information or a question that hasn't been answered previously of course.

This is a topic that often comes up and it does divide opinion, mine firmly is in the positive for all the detailed reasons discussed after discussions with credible industry pro's, which I am certainly not, but which has further helped me to arrive at the conviction that we can realistically be a much bigger club and for a sustained period.

"Sleeping Giant" is really only a figure of speech and open to interpretation and, I think we all know that we can and should be better and "bigger", to what degree is always going to be a matter of personal opinion but it's a good thing to discuss it in detail, which we are and some valid points raised.

I’m not convinced there were actual specifics I’ve just seen stroke a pen and other generalities rather than specific ideas.

If it was so easy everyone would be doing it. Instead we have West Brom, Middlesborough, Leeds, Swansea, Norwich, Sunderland and many others doing it.

There is relegation so there is always a chance it could be your year to struggle.

I do find it hard to comprehend some days when you see most of the London clubs with full grounds and not just the top sides and think "how many people must live in and around there" ?

JULESK

Population of london just shy of 9 million
Poulation of wales
3 million people.

Hi Moody and Ice. Thanks for your opinions on this. I'm not going to write more on your last specific questions, only because all the info and data you need that support that we can be a significant sustainable PL club has been previously discussed at length, why, how, who etc, it's been a long but interesting thread and no point repeating what has already been discussed unless its new information or a question that hasn't been answered previously of course.

This is a topic that often comes up and it does divide opinion, mine firmly is in the positive for all the detailed reasons discussed after discussions with credible industry pro's, which I am certainly not, but which has further helped me to arrive at the conviction that we can realistically be a much bigger club and for a sustained period.

"Sleeping Giant" is really only a figure of speech and open to interpretation and, I think we all know that we can and should be better and "bigger", to what degree is always going to be a matter of personal opinion but it's a good thing to discuss it in detail, which we are and some valid points raised.

I’m not convinced there were actual specifics I’ve just seen stroke a pen and other generalities rather than specific ideas.

If it was so easy everyone would be doing it. Instead we have West Brom, Middlesborough, Leeds, Swansea, Norwich, Sunderland and many others doing it.

There is relegation so there is always a chance it could be your year to struggle.

So the data has been discussed in terms of supporting our potential growth. A detailed plan, one that you'd execute upon hasn't been. But let us assume that one exists and it is credible.

The principle of executing the actual detail reduces down to this.

1 VTs money
2 He appoints somebody to run the whole football side of the business and who has executive control

Who that person is could be anybody credible with a proven track record. Some say Sam H would be ideal, some not and of course it doesn't have to be Sam, it could be another suitable candidate. He would be my choice though.

As it stands, we will be continually locked into fire-fighting mode with no capability of making the right decisions to achieve sustainable PL status, which is realistically possible.
I don't see this changing unless one of two things happens.

The first are above on points one or two. The second is him selling to a suitable owner to achieve our goal.

I can't see him doing the second until he reaches a certain pain threshold, bites the bullet , sells and writes off his debt.

Which leaves points 1&2 as the only option. So his best option to achieve both his and the clubs goals is to simply hand over the reigns to somebody who can deliver on their own and agreed plan to achieve sustainable PL status, as he and the board are unable to do that, as we have all seen and will continue if the status quo continues.

Hi Moody and Ice. Thanks for your opinions on this. I'm not going to write more on your last specific questions, only because all the info and data you need that support that we can be a significant sustainable PL club has been previously discussed at length, why, how, who etc, it's been a long but interesting thread and no point repeating what has already been discussed unless its new information or a question that hasn't been answered previously of course.

This is a topic that often comes up and it does divide opinion, mine firmly is in the positive for all the detailed reasons discussed after discussions with credible industry pro's, which I am certainly not, but which has further helped me to arrive at the conviction that we can realistically be a much bigger club and for a sustained period.

"Sleeping Giant" is really only a figure of speech and open to interpretation and, I think we all know that we can and should be better and "bigger", to what degree is always going to be a matter of personal opinion but it's a good thing to discuss it in detail, which we are and some valid points raised.

I’m not convinced there were actual specifics I’ve just seen stroke a pen and other generalities rather than specific ideas.

If it was so easy everyone would be doing it. Instead we have West Brom, Middlesborough, Leeds, Swansea, Norwich, Sunderland and many others doing it.

There is relegation so there is always a chance it could be your year to struggle.

So the data has been discussed in terms of supporting our potential growth. A detailed plan, one that you'd execute upon hasn't been. But let us assume that one exists and it is credible.

The principle of executing the actual detail reduces down to this.

1 VTs money
2 He appoints somebody to run the whole football side of the business and who has executive control

Who that person is could be anybody credible with a proven track record. Some say Sam H would be ideal, some not and of course it doesn't have to be Sam, it could be another suitable candidate. He would be my choice though.

As it stands, we will be continually locked into fire-fighting mode with no capability of making the right decisions to achieve sustainable PL status, which is realistically possible.
I don't see this changing unless one of two things happens.

The first are above on points one or two. The second is him selling to a suitable owner to achieve our goal.

I can't see him doing the second until he reaches a certain pain threshold, bites the bullet , sells and writes off his debt.

Which leaves points 1&2 as the only option. So his best option to achieve both his and the clubs goals is to simply hand over the reigns to somebody who can deliver on their own and agreed plan to achieve sustainable PL status, as he and the board are unable to do that, as we have all seen and will continue if the status quo continues.

Still no specifics.

What if the plan they had was actually shite?

If it was as easy as you say it is everyone would do it.

Hi Moody and Ice. Thanks for your opinions on this. I'm not going to write more on your last specific questions, only because all the info and data you need that support that we can be a significant sustainable PL club has been previously discussed at length, why, how, who etc, it's been a long but interesting thread and no point repeating what has already been discussed unless its new information or a question that hasn't been answered previously of course.

This is a topic that often comes up and it does divide opinion, mine firmly is in the positive for all the detailed reasons discussed after discussions with credible industry pro's, which I am certainly not, but which has further helped me to arrive at the conviction that we can realistically be a much bigger club and for a sustained period.

"Sleeping Giant" is really only a figure of speech and open to interpretation and, I think we all know that we can and should be better and "bigger", to what degree is always going to be a matter of personal opinion but it's a good thing to discuss it in detail, which we are and some valid points raised.

I’m not convinced there were actual specifics I’ve just seen stroke a pen and other generalities rather than specific ideas.

If it was so easy everyone would be doing it. Instead we have West Brom, Middlesborough, Leeds, Swansea, Norwich, Sunderland and many others doing it.

There is relegation so there is always a chance it could be your year to struggle.

So the data has been discussed in terms of supporting our potential growth. A detailed plan, one that you'd execute upon hasn't been. But let us assume that one exists and it is credible.

The principle of executing the actual detail reduces down to this.

1 VTs money
2 He appoints somebody to run the whole football side of the business and who has executive control

Who that person is could be anybody credible with a proven track record. Some say Sam H would be ideal, some not and of course it doesn't have to be Sam, it could be another suitable candidate. He would be my choice though.

As it stands, we will be continually locked into fire-fighting mode with no capability of making the right decisions to achieve sustainable PL status, which is realistically possible.
I don't see this changing unless one of two things happens.

The first are above on points one or two. The second is him selling to a suitable owner to achieve our goal.

I can't see him doing the second until he reaches a certain pain threshold, bites the bullet , sells and writes off his debt.

Which leaves points 1&2 as the only option. So his best option to achieve both his and the clubs goals is to simply hand over the reigns to somebody who can deliver on their own and agreed plan to achieve sustainable PL status, as he and the board are unable to do that, as we have all seen and will continue if the status quo continues.

Still no specifics.

What if the plan they had was actually shite?

If it was as easy as you say it is everyone would do it.

Read the above again Mac, it answers your question. The mutually agreed plan would of course have to be credible and not "shite" by it's very nature, that's just elementary. I can't add anymore mate, the specifics you keep asking for is to see the plan/playbook itself which you just have to accept is credible by it's nature. It's points one and two above that is really the core of what I'm emphasising to be as equally important.

Is it me, or is there an element of 'heel-digging' and 'point scoring' in here with a merry-go-round of similar comment...?

The assessment clearly shows the plausibilty of the two main points talked about by the OP and they show how said 'growth' could (not might) be achieved in a credible fashion...

I’m really confused now.

Is this what I’m looking at?

You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Is it me, or is there an element of 'heel-digging' and 'point scoring' in here with a merry-go-round of similar comment...?

The assessment clearly shows the plausibilty of the two main points talked about by the OP and they show how said 'growth' could (not might) be achieved in a credible fashion...

How so?

It talks about growth of Wales as a country.

It’s not heel digging to actually ask for meat on the bone rather than just get Sam Hamamm in to sort the football side. It can’t be just that easy.

I feel like I’m missing something.

I’m really confused now.

Is this what I’m looking at?

No Mac, that's a WG doc that contains population data that I cited.

Mate, you're a bright guy and a good poster but there's no point in me going over things again with you on this one. See Svens comment above, he clearly understands what's been discussed and the assessment.

JULESK

Population of london just shy of 9 million
Poulation of wales
3 million people.

Monty, there are 17 professional clubs in London and that includes 7 in the Premier League...

On your figures that equates to an average of 470k potential supoorters per club; or 1.142 million per Premier League club...

Even accounting for othe professional clubs in Wales, the demographics of south east Wales are equal to and likely better than those London clubs you use as a tool to dumb dowm our own potential...

GrangeEndStar's points stand firm...

Is it me, or is there an element of 'heel-digging' and 'point scoring' in here with a merry-go-round of similar comment...?

The assessment clearly shows the plausibilty of the two main points talked about by the OP and they show how said 'growth' could (not might) be achieved in a credible fashion...

How so?

It talks about growth of Wales as a country.

It’s not heel digging to actually ask for meat on the bone rather than just get Sam Hamamm in to sort the football side. It can’t be just that easy.

I feel like I’m missing something.

Is it me, or is there an element of 'heel-digging' and 'point scoring' in here with a merry-go-round of similar comment...?

The assessment clearly shows the plausibilty of the two main points talked about by the OP and they show how said 'growth' could (not might) be achieved in a credible fashion...

How so?

It talks about growth of Wales as a country.

It’s not heel digging to actually ask for meat on the bone rather than just get Sam Hamamm in to sort the football side. It can’t be just that easy.

I feel like I’m missing something.

Not sure you missed anything other than mistaking a WAGZ document as 'relevent' but you appear to want to perpetuate points are either not relevant or are simply going in circles...

That is not a document that should be used in this debate. The OP has a broad knowledge of such things and was clearly IMHO showing how our growth as a club could be made with a little imagination and conviction from the top...

We have already proven that people react to success at our great club and using figures from our last success, i.e. 27K and 33k in our two Premier Leagues seasons; particularly when you factor the significant troubles at the club back then, and the relative lack of success in either season...

People will come when the circumstances and conditions are right. That we have shown to be true...!

I’m really confused now.

Is this what I’m looking at?

No Mac, that's a WG doc that contains population data that I cited.

Mate, you're a bright guy and a good poster but there's no point in me going over things again with you on this one. See Svens comment above, he clearly understands what's been discussed and the assessment.

Roger and copy that.

I agree with you in that if we had sustained success we would have the crowds and would get momentum. Sadly I think we missed our shots at that.

1) when we were on our roll under Sam with really good young players. Had we managed to get to the prem we would have been too valuable for the rugby guys to do what they did and manoeuvre the council to getting Sam out after he run out of money.
2) when Tan decided to invest big after turning us red. Had we a decent manager we would have had a squad that would have stayed up easily with the money that was spent. Had we been mid table we would not have had any debate about the manager. The two teams that came up with us stayed up easily with far less spending.

I’d love to be proved wrong but I think it’s too hard now with FFP. Although look at Ipswich and Luton so what do I know.

I’m really confused now.

Is this what I’m looking at?

No Mac, that's a WG doc that contains population data that I cited.

Mate, you're a bright guy and a good poster but there's no point in me going over things again with you on this one. See Svens comment above, he clearly understands what's been discussed and the assessment.

Roger and copy that.

I agree with you in that if we had sustained success we would have the crowds and would get momentum. Sadly I think we missed our shots at that.

1) when we were on our roll under Sam with really good young players. Had we managed to get to the prem we would have been too valuable for the rugby guys to do what they did and manoeuvre the council to getting Sam out after he run out of money.
2) when Tan decided to invest big after turning us red. Had we a decent manager we would have had a squad that would have stayed up easily with the money that was spent. Had we been mid table we would not have had any debate about the manager. The two teams that came up with us stayed up easily with far less spending.

I’d love to be proved wrong but I think it’s too hard now with FFP. Although look at Ipswich and Luton so what do I know.

Spot on with all that Mac. I speak to many on here on the phone and more than happy to have a quick natter with you to clarify anything. So much easier and quicker than messaging, PM me if you want and we can speak at some point.