Relevent items from the Cardiff Blues accounts

To May 2009

loss of £820k

turnover £7.9m (up £1.2m due to success in heineken and EDF Cup)

agreement to lease CCS - £350k with max contribution to running costs of £150k

plaing/coaching staff 70 (yikes), total staff 97

loans into the club from Peter Thomas - £2m (no interest) and his company Atlantic properties £2m (low interest)

expect to get £2m if they vacate the Arms park in land sale and £500k per year for their lease for next 13 years (which would cover their costs of using the CCS)

Doesnt seem a bad deal for them really if as expected the arms Park is sold for completing the Millenium.

That's Cardiff RFC, the holding company, not Cardiff Blues, surely?

The rental figure is also skewed, there are additional costs not listed in the accounts.

Also, how would the Blues get money for a land sale when they don't own the ground? AFAIK, CAC are the owners... and major shareholders in Cardiff RFC Ltd.

Playing / coaching staff covers both Blues and Cardiff RFC, by the way, so the figure is hardly too high.

To get those figures into perspective, Cardiff RFC Ltd lost 820k in a season when they were successful in Europe, playing at CAP with a far lower rental.

I'd be surprised if losses this financial year didn't total 1m - 1.25m.

Indeed, financially, Cardiff RFC Ltd seem in the doo-doo. Aside from the HMRC winding up order recently, they also at one point had their phones cutoff at CAP...

Which basically means less money on players, lower standard of play, income reduction as crowd dwindles even further...

That's Cardiff RFC, the holding company, not Cardiff Blues, surely?

The rental figure is also skewed, there are additional costs not listed in the accounts.

Yes, its the Holding Company's accounts. There was an article in the W.Mail a few weeks ago. i've taken the figures from that.

Also, how would the Blues get money for a land sale when they don't own the ground? AFAIK, CAC are the owners... and major shareholders in Cardiff RFC Ltd.

Playing / coaching staff covers both Blues and Cardiff RFC, by the way, so the figure is hardly too high.

To get those figures into perspective, Cardiff RFC Ltd lost 820k in a season when they were successful in Europe, playing at CAP with a far lower rental.

I'd be surprised if losses this financial year didn't total 1m - 1.25m.

One apoint at a time...
- they dont own the ground, but DO own car parking rights and also have a lease which will have to be paid off, a bit like we had at NP.

- playing staff, yes, but still seesm high IMHO

- agreed with the other points.

Indeed, financially, Cardiff RFC Ltd seem in the doo-doo. Aside from the HMRC winding up order recently, they also at one point had their phones cutoff at CAP...

Which basically means less money on players, lower standard of play, income reduction as crowd dwindles even further...

Depends on how much/how long peter Thomas is prepared to keep coughing up. Seems to me they really need to get the development of the Arms Park underway, but a lot of vested interest there.

Also, how would the Blues get money for a land sale when they don't own the ground? AFAIK, CAC are the owners... and major shareholders in Cardiff RFC Ltd.

Playing / coaching staff covers both Blues and Cardiff RFC, by the way, so the figure is hardly too high.

To get those figures into perspective, Cardiff RFC Ltd lost 820k in a season when they were successful in Europe, playing at CAP with a far lower rental.

I'd be surprised if losses this financial year didn't total 1m - 1.25m.

One apoint at a time...
- they dont own the ground, but DO own car parking rights and also have a lease which will have to be paid off, a bit like we had at NP.

- playing staff, yes, but still seesm high IMHO

- agreed with the other points.

15 players per side, plus squad players, plus developmental players, 70 isn't too high, tbh.

Car parking rights, well, yes, along with revenue from the clubhouse. Which has been lost by moving to CCS. Council allegedly trying to make Westgate St either one way or traffic free, which kills the car parking revenue.

The lease is the interesting bit. Blues as a separate entity, well, they've moved already, so the lease is basically dead for them. It only remains for the Cardiff RFC side - with low attendances of what 1k, that side of things will be losing money hand over fist. Given concrete cancer has allegedly been found, Cardiff RFC Ltd won't stump up to upgrade the ground, not will CAC. I'd suspect should alternative area be found, namely say the new Athletics Stadium, that lease won't be worth much if anything.

One apoint at a time...
- they dont own the ground, but DO own car parking rights and also have a lease which will have to be paid off, a bit like we had at NP.

- playing staff, yes, but still seesm high IMHO

- agreed with the other points.[/quote]

15 players per side, plus squad players, plus developmental players, 70 isn't too high, tbh.

Car parking rights, well, yes, along with revenue from the clubhouse. Which has been lost by moving to CCS. Council allegedly trying to make Westgate St either one way or traffic free, which kills the car parking revenue.

The lease is the interesting bit. Blues as a separate entity, well, they've moved already, so the lease is basically dead for them. It only remains for the Cardiff RFC side - with low attendances of what 1k, that side of things will be losing money hand over fist. Given concrete cancer has allegedly been found, Cardiff RFC Ltd won't stump up to upgrade the ground, not will CAC. I'd suspect should alternative area be found, namely say the new Athletics Stadium, that lease won't be worth much if anything.[/quote]

the squad thing is a matter of opinion which as a City fan i'm not minded to see as worthy of additional debate , I'm certain though from what I've read that they will be cutting their wage bill next season.

The figures on their potential incomes from the sale of CAP are direct quotes from the W.Mail article '...if sold... the Blues could be entitled to £500k per year for each of the 13 years left on their lease'.

The land is worth about £14m, ..enough to spread around the other interested parties CAC, and the Bowls club. Cardiff rFC would move to the athletics stadium.

If the Blues are entitled to £500k P/A as compensation for having their lease agreement terminated early then it is reasonable to assume the previous cost of the Blues playing at CAP was also £500,000 P/A.

That would go some way to explaining why they find playing at CCS worthwhile.

It's a big IF though.

I'd bet good money they make far more than that from the clubhouse and car parking per annum. Attendances have been poor, less than at CAP.

Even if they get 500k per annum of the remainder of the lease, that would be offset by the lost income.

If they lost 800k overall in a season with lower rent and outgoings, higher income, the 500k would merely mitigate somewhat the losses.

Can't afford the higher quality players, playing results suffer, it's a downward spiral. CAC would still be charging rent for the Athletics stadium for Cardiff RFC also.

The land value, it may be 14m, doesn't mean they will get 14m. Factor in the costs of demolishing CAP, factor in things the council can do to drive the value down. Hell, it's not outside the bounds of possibility a compulsory purchase order could be issued.

AFAIK, CAP is owned by CAC. Any money from the sale would go to them solely, not Cardiff RFC Ltd? granted it's a highly convoluted situation...

Of course, it also depends upon our situation. Would the Malaysians want rugby played at CCS? If we got promoted, would the egg money necessarily be needed? Lots of things can change.

It just doesn't look healthy for the eggers.