PMG - So What Has Changed?

A few months back, the Supporters' Trust was slammed by many of the regulars on this message board for releasing a joint press statement with the Supporters' Club highlighting the nature of PMG's relationship with Cardiff City Football Club. As is sadly so often the case on here, the Trust was rubbished while I was given all sorts of abuse as the author of said statement.

I can't help but notice in recent weeks there has been a great deal of anti-PMG sentiment expressed on this message board, and some of it has been supplied by the very people who were slagging off the Trust and myself a few months ago for releasing the PMG statement.

So what has changed all of a sudden? Why are people who were giving the Trust stick and me abuse for daring to question PMG's involvement now launching their own tirades against the property developers and saying they must be removed from our club if we are to progress?

Here's a reminder of what people were saying just a few short months ago:

“The constant digs at PMG astound me.” (Steve Davies, 18/3)

“This statement is pathetic and clearly highlights the weakness of the trust and the fact it's just a publicity tool for Sugarman.” (Daya, 18/3)

“It seems a bit harsh to single out PMG, it was not long ago that they bankrolled the club, paying wages etc.” (Rhooster, 18/3)

“If it wasn’t for PMG, we as a club may have not been here today. They have put monies in to keep us going when anybody else wouldn’t, so don’t bite the hand what feeds you I say.” (Wez 1927, 18/3)

“The claims that it's PMG who could break any deal are pretty ludicrous based upon what everybody else has been hearing. Which then makes you wonder precisely how much information the Trust actually have and, more importantly, where it's coming from.” (Nerd, 18/3)

“Without PMG’s backing the club would have been dead long ago.” (Nerd, 18/3)

“A HUGE gaff by the Trust releasing that statement, but that’s what you get when you sail ships without sailors but attempt to do it with inexperienced skivys.” (Daya, 18/3)

“The Trust (oops, and CCSC) statement, is pretty much a veiled attack on PMG. One which seems at odds with basically everything most people "in the know" have heard. Which means it's questionable how much the Trust actually know.” (Nerd, 18/3)

“To single out the people who have been stumping up the cash to keep the club afloat over the last two months is criminal and shows a lack of real knowledge of what is really happening behind the scenes.” (Steve Davies, 18/3)

“Pathetic, why have a go at PMG?” (Eddie May, 19/3)

“Why are certain people now turning on Paul Guy/PMG, have they got a certain agenda?” (Forever Blue, 19/3)

“The real truth of the matter is that there have been clandestine meetings between the Trust and the chairman over these last few weeks and the outcome of those meetings was that statement yesterday. The chairman via the Trust has successfully deflected criticism from himself and onto Paul Guy.” (Steve Davies, 20/3)

“I'm glad people now see Paul Guy as he is a CCFC Fan, there is a fine line between business and pleasure and he has had to look at his best interests and them of the club, which he has done. We would be in a far worse state if it wasn’t for him!” (GRA, 19/3)

“I just hope that the statement was because certain members of the trust were railroaded and misled by PR, rather than a corner of the trust knowing the truth and using and abusing their power for a personal agenda, trying to put heat on some, and taking heat off others. If Paul Guy pulled out of the club now, we'd be doomed. I think the statement was ill-timed and could possibly destabilise the club. There's been talk on here from respected people of clandestine meetings between PR and a prominent member of the trust. Like I said, I just hope people have foolishly fallen for PR's brainwashing, rather than abusing their position within the trust to put out an ill-timed and possibly damaging statement as they did yesterday.” (Mr Davies, 19/3)

“As far as I’m concerned an individual has abused the position of the trust with regards to releasing this statement. After a few clandestine meetings with the chairman the message boards were full of ‘we are blaming the wrong person threads’ culminating in this ill timed and sneaky attack on Paul Guy who is not here to defend himself. As far as I’m concerned the trust is being run as some sort of dictatorship.” (Steve Davies, 19/3)

“To turn on Guy, well the Trust have lost it in my opinion.” (Forever Blue, 19/3)

“Has anybody found out who was behind the pathetic PMG statement issued by the Trust? As if it's not difficult to guess. With that press statement they shot themselves in the foot entirely, wrong tactic, wrong target based upon the information the Trust had received.” (Nerd, 7/4)

“Who instigated the statement against PMG? Are they still on the Trust board? What evidence does the Trust have to have made such a statement?” (Nerd, 11/4)

And here is the original statement:

PMG – A JOINT STATEMENT FROM THE CARDIFF CITY SUPPORTERS’ CLUB AND SUPPORTERS’ TRUST

Despite being granted a 56-day stay of execution in the High Court last week, it appears that Cardiff City Football Club’s future is once again on a knife edge.

We have been reliably informed that administration is virtually inevitable before the end of March if significant new investment in the club has not materialised by then. We understand the Bluebirds’ cash reserves are practically exhausted, there is little money available to pay this month’s wage bill and debts are now estimated at almost £40 million.

The situation is clearly perilous, although we are led to believe there may be light at the end of the tunnel thanks to a written offer of investment from a Malaysian consortium. The group’s front-man, Dato Chan Tien Ghee, is said to be arriving in the UK on Thursday for a series of meetings with Bluebirds’ officials, during which the club’s fate will effectively be sealed.

The men who appear to hold the key to the football club’s future are Cardiff-based property developers Paul Guy and Mike Hall. Their company, PMG, is the club’s biggest shareholder and also its largest secured creditor. Consequently, they are certain to be central to any takeover negotiations.

During recent years, PMG has benefited from a series of lucrative land deals connected to the Cardiff City Stadium project. Not only has the company become the sole owner of the successful Capital Retail Park, but it was also chosen to develop and build the Glamorgan Records Office, which stands adjacent to the new stadium.

In addition, PMG recently purchased another large plot of land on the stadium site, upon which a hotel will eventually be developed.

It is clear that PMG has been doing very nicely from its relationship with Cardiff City, but the current state of the football club’s finances suggests the benefits of this association have not been entirely mutual.

It should be acknowledged that Paul Guy and Mike Hall were largely instrumental in getting the new stadium project off the ground. They advised on all stadium development issues, while PMG advanced the club £9 million of the funding required to build it. The loan was secured against future income from the Premier Club seating area and attracts interest estimated at £500,000 pa.

In December 2006, while he and his colleagues were in the process of taking control of Cardiff City, Mike Hall claimed the new investors were local people who were interested in the football club’s long-term future. He also described former-owner Sam Hammam as being motivated by “total greed and self-interest.”

We sincerely hope that Messrs Guy and Hall will not put themselves in a position whereby they will be open to similar accusations from Bluebirds’ supporters during the coming weeks. We therefore call upon them to set aside their personal interests and do what is right for Cardiff City Football Club in the critical days ahead.

17/03/2010

f**k do you throw anything out

Lets just cross everything and hope for the best eh Dave?


Hopefully everything will fall into place, but means were Cardiff i somehow doubt it



Another chapter for Annis's books

Hear hear

edit: to TLG

wow thats either a lot of research of you keep a lot of info

wow thats either a lot of research of you keep a lot of info

He's done more trawling than the north sea fishing fleet

Dave,

You have made very good points tonight and tomorrow will be another big day for our club (who needs the season to start!).

So why be so condescending and wind everyone up all the time?

Sorry to hear that you are skint.

Mike

Gotta b said he hit the nail right on the head with that 1

As I have said previously, I would love to have that type of knowledge at my fingertips. For me to put a post like that together would take me hours if not days of reading back through threads from many many months ago.

Trouble is, I have a life and I don't have one hell of a chip on my shoulder with the constant need to prove myself to be correct on an internet messageboard.

As I have said previously, I would love to have that type of knowledge at my fingertips. For me to put a post like that together would take me hours if not days of reading back through threads from many many months ago.

It took around half an hour. The search function is very easy to use when you know how.

I am a Trust member and have never said anything against the Trust on here , and also the past is where it should be left in the past . At present PMG have gained a hell of a lot from CCFC and the retail park etc and the only issue I have at the mo is now that TG / VT have invested £6 mil for basically gaining nothing material apart from debt and a 30 odd % share then the least they expect is for PMG and fellow board members / shareholders to invest into CCFC too , thats seems to be the Malaysian way . However PMG seem reluctant to follow suit and if they are NOT intending any investment into CCFC and just want money and want out then they should say so

I am a Trust member and have never said anything against the Trust on here , and also the past is where it should be left in the past.

Does that include leaving Sam Hammam in the past?

The issue, TLG, is that times and situations change.

The Trust statement was at a time when the Malaysian deal was still in the air. Reminding PMG of their duties when no such statement was issued towards Ridsdale or others seemed odd given there was no indication whatsoever PMG would be involved in blocking the deal.

Now, the investment has occured. PMG are now seemingly believing the Malaysians will cover every cost, PMG can then relax, coast along and get their money without any effort.

I remember being equally vilified on here at the time for daring to agree with the CCST and to question PMG's commitment to our club.

Well recalled TLG.

I wonder why the volte-face has occurred?

The Trust statement was at a time when the Malaysian deal was still in the air. Reminding PMG of their duties when no such statement was issued towards Ridsdale or others seemed odd given there was no indication whatsoever PMG would be involved in blocking the deal.

The statement was issued due to bona fide information received (not from Peter Ridsdale I hasten to add), the validity of which was unquestionable. Although both I and the Trust got all sorts of abuse for it, the statement was in fact very much a CCSC-led initiative.

Perhaps there was no indication on message boards such as this that PMG would block the deal and, indeed, CCSC and the Trust made no such accusations. However, what is certain is that PMG were unsurpisingly seeking to obtain the best deal for themselves, and when the statement was released they were in the process of negotiating. Hence the timing.

Agreed, TLG, but all parties would be looking for the best deal for themselves. Not purely PMG.

And again, the difference between then and now is simply that there was no investment until the deal was concluded.

Now the investment has arrived, it's a different ball game.

Agreed, TLG, but all parties would be looking for the best deal for themselves. Not purely PMG.

To a degree. But the investment agreement is very telling in that respect.

TLG - Can you elaborate on your point about the investment agreement.
Bosco

TLG - Can you elaborate on your point about the investment agreement.
Bosco

Bosco, I'm working on a piece for my blog that will elaborate. I'll put a link up when it's finished.

TLG, my honest answer is I think at the time the Trust lost a bit of credibility due to one or two things. It didn't matter then what was said by the Trust, no one would have listened. It's not your fault and anyone other individual to be fair.

Agree with me, disagree with me, I'm not bothered either way, this is just what I think is the answer to your question.

TLG Great to see you having good debates and your own topics

Annis - has your opinion of PMG changed inthe last few months?
Bosco

TLG - Can you elaborate on your point about the investment agreement.
Bosco

Bosco, I'm working on a piece for my blog that will elaborate. I'll put a link up when it's finished.

Thx TLG
Bosco

TLG

I think this thread proves that people will dismiss what you say, just because it is said by you. Not because of what the content is. This board has been going on about "those eggers" since Jenkins was apponted.

Seeing the amount of abuse and sniping about you on here, I think you are more than entitled to point out the hypocrisy of some posters.

I personally think the trust does a good job. I don't really care if you and Annis/Carl want to have a "my daddy is bigger than yours" competition. Whether any of us like it or not, you and Annis are the fans representative and I think you both need to start working together, its important the trust shows a united front.

Unfortunately, at the time of the march, many who chose not to march for some reason or another were lambasted and sniped at, the same as what you are experiencing. That left a sour taste in my mouth as I'm sure it did many others.

Our club is never far away from a crisis. We will all disagree with each other etc but we need to stick together.

good post Hannah and your dead right as CCFC needs all its supporters pulling togethor in 1 direction plus we need to back or join the Trust aswell , and Im sure the Trust WILL and CAN work alongside Annis , Carl , Gwyn and TLG for all matters that do or do not involve Sam

Plus there is a bit of a clash of personalities on this forum where 1 party will always shoot down the other without reason but it makes for good reading tho the good thing about this Forum is that it gives posters an open floor to express their point of view and as long as it doesnt get personal then healthy debate is good for everybody . Sam is going to split fans down the middle and we all have our views on him good or bad and at the mo he may or may not be coming on board , that is upto TG / VT and PMG to decide and NOT us fans !

As to Gethin Jenkins then its obvious he's been thrown in at the deep end here and I know at least 2 people will never agree to him or acept him for personal reasons and I suppose if I had books of mine removed for no apparant reason then I would feel aggrieved too , but I do believe he is just acting for the PMG side of the board and just doing his job there . Yes he needs to learn and grow with CCFC and why not give him time ?

I see Borley is on his hols in Spain , so why did somebody post on here that he's walked away and was just letting Jenkins get on with things for a bit then ?

In the interests of fairness and balance I think the same principles of accuracy which TLG applies to Carl's postings should now be applied to the joint statement by TLG & the Supporters Club.

The statement is wrong in so much as CCFC didn't go into administration by the end of March despite the fact the Malaysian investment didn't happen until the end of May, the staff were paid that month and TG didn't arrived in the UK on the following Thursday due to the volcanic dust cloud

In the interests of fairness and balance I think the same principles of accuracy which TLG applies to Carl's postings should now be applied to the joint statement by TLG & the Supporters Club.

The statement is wrong in so much as CCFC didn't go into administration by the end of March despite the fact the Malaysian investment didn't happen until the end of May, the staff were paid that month and TG didn't arrived in the UK on the following Thursday due to the volcanic dust cloud

The timing of the agreement with the Malaysians is earlier than the end of May though Tony.

The notice of the EGM at which their investment was approved is dated 30 April and the paperwork with the notice says that the deal had already been voted for with "irrevocable undertakings" from each of the directors , PMG ,P Guy and M Isaac .(page5)

The paperwork also clearly states thatTG and Vincent Tan were already legally committed to their investment at the time of the date of the notice .(page8)

So I suspect the deal had been concluded some time in April , and might well have been done as early as the end of March , using April to fine tune the legal details.

Keith

In the interests of fairness and balance I think the same principles of accuracy which TLG applies to Carl's postings should now be applied to the joint statement by TLG & the Supporters Club.

The statement is wrong in so much as CCFC didn't go into administration by the end of March despite the fact the Malaysian investment didn't happen until the end of May, the staff were paid that month and TG didn't arrived in the UK on the following Thursday due to the volcanic dust cloud

The timing of the agreement with the Malaysians is earlier than the end of May though Tony.

The notice of the EGM at which their investment was approved is dated 30 April and the paperwork with the notice says that the deal had already been voted for with "irrevocable undertakings" from each of the directors , PMG ,P Guy and M Isaac .(page5)

The paperwork also clearly states thatTG and Vincent Tan were already legally committed to their investment at the time of the date of the notice .(page8)

So I suspect the deal had been concluded some time in April , and might well have been done as early as the end of March , using April to fine tune the legal details.

Keith

The end of April doesn't really offer an explanation considering we are talking about the begining or middle of March (the statement was clearly made before the end of March), also the vast majority of the £6m investment wasn't released until May, with some payments in April.

In any case that's not my point. TLG has repeatedily used hind sight as a means to undermine Carl's exclusives. I'm just using the same prinicple as The Trust Statement makes clear reference to going into admin by the end of March and the club having no money to pay the wages. What I have done is demonstrate that with hind sight you can make someone's well intentioned words seem contradictory if even if that was not their original intention.

In any case that's not my point. TLG has repeatedily used hind sight as a means to undermine Carl's exclusives. I'm just using the same prinicple as The Trust Statement makes clear reference to going into admin by the end of March and the club having no money to pay the wages. What I have done is demonstrate that with hind sight you can make someone's well intentioned words seem contradictory if even if that was not their original intention.

The statement said:

"We have been reliably informed that administration is virtually inevitable before the end of March if significant new investment in the club has not materialised by then. "

Thankfully, significant new investement in the club did materialise by then. TG/VT loaned the club money in March to pay the wages and meet the running costs. That's why their £6 million investement in May involved £5 million of new money. The £1 million they had already loaned the club was converted into shares (source: General Meeting notice to shareholders).