The new tax debt , transfer embargo etc.

I have no reason to doubt the NOTW story that the club owes HMRC £1.3m in taxes or that they have taken the step of issuing a winding up petition as a means of "encouraging" the club to pay up.

Just a couple of comments though to try and restore a bit of a sense of balance

1) £1.3m could be as little as 2 months worth of PAYE/NI debt bearing in mind the normal level of the club`s payroll and the usual higher than normal bills at football clubs due to paying end of season bonuses etc. I am not saying that this is an acceptable level of debt but it is less arrears (on a time basis) than the club has had for some time , giving hope that the matter is being dealt with , albeit more slowly than all would wish.

2) HMRC have had more than a gutsfull of CCFC over the last 7 months or so whilst under the control of P Ridsdale due to several broken promises and repayment plans.I am hardly surprised that they are now playing hardball by taking all means available to them to get payment until the tax position is fully up to date - they simply have lost all faith in CCFC due to the previous Chairman.They are also pursuing a hard line with professional football clubs in general.

3) Speaking to people I know at the Football League , the current position may not necessarily cause an automatic transfer embargo provided the club can show them evidence that the matter will be cleared in the very near future.Otherwise , there would be literally dozens of clubs under embargo as they owe at least 2 months of taxes.However , the fact that it has reached petition stage will be frowned upon and the League`s patience will be thin and short lived.

I think every true fan will wish to see the matter resolved in a positive way ASAP so the club can continue what I am sure will be a long hard journey upwards out of its financial problems.

Keith

Thank you for such an informative post keith

great post Keith,Lets hope this is sorted soon we are only a month away from the opening game of the season.

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Re: Income Streams for this season
by since62 » Sun Jul 04, 2010 10:33 pm

Our share of the general Football League pot will be £3m (went up last season from the previous level of £1.2m).
There will also be a bonus of a further £1m due to Newcastle and WBA getting promoted and losing their parachute payments which instead get spread out between all the other clubs (except the 3 coming down as they get their own).

TV money will depend on how many times we are on Sky. If we do well , we will have more matches than if we are struggling , but we did pretty well out of it last season and it could earn us up to another £2m (more likely to be half that).

There is also a bit of a bonus the higher up the Championship you finish out of a seperate prize pot , but that tends to be in hundreds of £k rather than the millions you get in the Premiership for the same thing.
since62

Posts: 259
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:11 am

great post Keith,Lets hope this is sorted soon we are only a month away from the opening game of the season.

It has to be Wil.

How things are dealt with this month will go a long way to deciding what kind of a season we have as this division is going to be really competitive again next season and the January window may come too late to recover from any poor start.

Excellent posts Keith, explained in terms that anyone can understand.

Cheers

JBBJ

Keith,

I put your other post up, I hope you dont mind, very informative in my opinion

Since62 - Please can you explain how the bonus re WBA and NUFC is as much as £1m?
The £3m from the League - when will we receive that?
Thanks
Bosco

Since62 - Please can you explain how the bonus re WBA and NUFC is as much as £1m?
The £3m from the League - when will we receive that?
Thanks
Bosco

No problem.

Under the rules in force in the season when they got relegated , both WBA and Newcastle were entitled to parachute payments of £11m each from the Premier League. However , they are not entitled to that money if they get promoted back up again within 2 seasons. So the £22m is then redistributed to the other Championship clubs other than the 3 who came down , who get their own big parachute payments.

£22m shared between the 21 qualifying clubs is just over £1m each.

Keith

Thanks Keith. The increase to £3m - was that for 2009/10 or is that for 2010/11?
Bosco

Are we still awaiting Play Off final and Cup money?
Bosco

Thanks Keith. The increase to £3m - was that for 2009/10 or is that for 2010/11?
Bosco

2009/10.

Are we still awaiting Play Off final and Cup money?
Bosco

In all honesty , I don`t know for sure as it is normally paid out around this time of year.

Thanks Keith. The increase to £3m - was that for 2009/10 or is that for 2010/11?
Bosco

2009/10.

So we are rich really!!!!!
Bosco

Thank you for that Keith, according to Phil Blanche of the WM&E the club will not be placed under a transfer embargo. Thats if you can believe the Echo.

Keith, I'd seriously be amazed if there was no embargo.

We've recently been under an embargo and now we - yet again - owe HMRC money. If the FL let that go, there would be an outcry.

Now, Ghee and Tan aren't dumb. I'm sure they are well aware of debts - but little things like the staff wages, not paying on time is inexcusable. People blame "international bank delays", yes there are things to prevent money laundering, but let's be brutally honest - that causes you to be late one month, you organise it to be dealt with earlier the next month. Not keep on causing the same problem month after month.

It just seems any monies Ghee and Tan are releasing for payment of debts is "just in time". Pay up at the very last minute. That can be risky - after all, if you're a player who keeps getting paid late, why would you want to stay here? Why would players want to come here?

I've just a horrible feeling all is not well within the club, and I don;'t nmean purely from a level of debt perspective.

Just seen on Mike's site they are saying there is an embargo, any truth or just supposition?

Just seen on Mike's site they are saying there is an embargo, any truth or just supposition?

I just saw that gwyn.

He's plucked it out of the air.

Who do I believe, the respected Phil Blanche (Echo business jouranlist who produced some VERY GOOD reports whewn Sam was here regarding our finances), and Keith Morgan... or a poster named 'PANTSMANRULES '

Its no joking matter, but I beleive there isn't an embargo -yet. (For all the reasons Keith stated). The League are sure to be keeping a close eye though.

With regard to Phil Blanche, here's the comment.

"But the Bluebirds insist the matter will be resolved within days and the club will not be placed under a transfer embargo."

In short, his knowledge of an embargo is precisely what the club have told him. Which may or may not be true; after all the club wouldn't exactly openly publicisen the embargo, would they?

but little things like the staff wages, not paying on time is inexcusable.

there is nothing in law which says wages/salaries have to be paid by a given date. only in the contract of employment can state the date of payment be stated, and even then it can be open to interpretation.

but little things like the staff wages, not paying on time is inexcusable.

there is nothing in law which says wages/salaries have to be paid by a given date. only in the contract of employment can state the date of payment be stated, and even then it can be open to interpretation.

Oh Jantra, I wish you would leave this at SWARB.

but little things like the staff wages, not paying on time is inexcusable.

there is nothing in law which says wages/salaries have to be paid by a given date. only in the contract of employment can state the date of payment be stated, and even then it can be open to interpretation.

Riiiight, ok.

Players, staff always paid on certain date.

Tien Ghee, Tan take over, players now regularly paid later than usual.

"International banking delays" blamed.

Easy - send the money earlier. Not difficult, is it?

Inexcusable. Not illegal.

I see were are page 2 in the Echo again club in crisis bla bla bla !! its turning into a nightmare this !!!

Keith (or anyone else in the know)

Assuming that we paid the previous tax bill in full (we must have or they would have wound us up) and that was some time in May, I don't understand how we have clocked up another tax bill of £1.3m in such a short amount of time on a turnover of our level. That would equate to something like £8m a year in tax revenue if £1.3m is accrued in 2 months ??

but little things like the staff wages, not paying on time is inexcusable.

there is nothing in law which says wages/salaries have to be paid by a given date. only in the contract of employment can state the date of payment be stated, and even then it can be open to interpretation.

Riiiight, ok.

Players, staff always paid on certain date.

Tien Ghee, Tan take over, players now regularly paid later than usual.

"International banking delays" blamed.

Easy - send the money earlier. Not difficult, is it?

Inexcusable. Not illegal.

I think it was Carl who said on here (apologies Carl if it wasn`t ) that the wages had been paid late for 4 of the last 5 months.So it is not a phenomenon (put that one in for you Gwyn ) that has suddenly occurred under the new regime as you are suggesting nerd.

Keith (or anyone else in the know)

Assuming that we paid the previous tax bill in full (we must have or they would have wound us up) and that was some time in May, I don't understand how we have clocked up another tax bill of £1.3m in such a short amount of time on a turnover of our level. That would equate to something like £8m a year in tax revenue if £1.3m is accrued in 2 months ??

See my post at the start of this thread.

The club`s PAYE/NI bill has varied recently between £400k and £600k a month , depending on number of games played , win and goal bonuses etc. Some of those bonuses usually contain an element paid at the end of the season , so the £1.3m debt could well relate to just the April and May wage bill (June PAYE/NI is not payable until next week and would be far lower in a non-playing month anyway).

The high figures just go to show what a ridiculously high , and unsustainable , wage bill the club has been carrying for a business of its size.

Keith

I think it was Carl who said on here (apologies Carl if it wasn`t ) that the wages had been paid late for 4 of the last 5 months.So it is not a phenomenon (put that one in for you Gwyn ) that has suddenly occurred under the new regime as you are suggesting nerd.

No,not suggesting current regime have suddenly caused the problem - but it's also true Ghee has invested and is thus fully aware of the time such money laundering checks would take.

I think it was Carl who said on here (apologies Carl if it wasn`t ) that the wages had been paid late for 4 of the last 5 months.So it is not a phenomenon (put that one in for you Gwyn ) that has suddenly occurred under the new regime as you are suggesting nerd.

No,not suggesting current regime have suddenly caused the problem - but it's also true Ghee has invested and is thus fully aware of the time such money laundering checks would take.

He may well be waiting until the last moment to see HOW MUCH he needs to stump up each time.

Also, from the Echo article, the wages aren't actually due until the 30th, but have 'traditionally' been paid on the 28th. Perhaps thats a bit of an odd one for them to get their heads around.

As for the 'embargo', do you know the rules on this, as I thought the FL had to actually impose it, not that it became automatic. That certainly seems to have been the case with other clubs. The practicality of it would surely determine this method any way. So many clubs will be behind with their payments, but the vast majority have payment schedules in place. Its been a tool not just for footy clubs, but for many businesses to drag out payments to the revenue, but now they are getting tough.

If you know different - and can back this up then please post the link, as I'm not 100% on the EXACT rules

TG may well be waiting until the last moment to see HOW MUCH he needs to stump up each time.
spot on there mate.

just had a reply from Jay Bothroyd.....i asked him if we are (our club) is gonna be ok now that we have an embargo on us......his words are:----------


The club is now in good hands and is moving forward!! Looking forward to pre season and just concentrating on our job ... Winning games