Who are the creditors ?

The preferred creditors I mean, if the club went tits up who would be in line for their money first ?

Malaysians ?
Langston ?
PMG ?
Ranson ?

Tax man
PMG
Ranson
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Sam

The preferred creditors I mean, if the club went tits up who would be in line for their money first ?

Malaysians ?
Langston ?
PMG ?
Ranson ?

Secured Creditors I believe are Malaysians/Ranson, Not sure if PMG are any more, Since 62(Keith) where are you ?

Tax man
PMG
Ranson
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Sam

tax man lost prefered creditor status a long time ago that s why they are going after football clubs in a big way ,

Where's Ranson fit in?

This is Ray Ranson ex Footballer?

The preferred creditors I mean, if the club went tits up who would be in line for their money first ?

Malaysians ?
Langston ?
PMG ?
Ranson ?

Secured Creditors I believe are Malaysians/Ranson, Not sure if PMG are any more, Since 62(Keith) where are you ?

I think its the same Annis.

The only security the Malaysians will have is against the LOANs, not their shares, so only £1-£2m.

Not sure what Ranson's security is, but beleive the debt is around £2.5m now. This one is of concern as he may have security against future transfer fees - which would block (or at least put a massive hole in) one of our potential incomes.

PMG have probably still got security against future income of the Premier Club.

The preferred creditors I mean, if the club went tits up who would be in line for their money first ?

Malaysians ?
Langston ?
PMG ?
Ranson ?

Secured Creditors I believe are Malaysians/Ranson, Not sure if PMG are any more, Since 62(Keith) where are you ?

I think its the same Annis.

The only security the Malaysians will have is against the LOANs, not their shares, so only £1-£2m.

Not sure what Ranson's security is, but beleive the debt is around £2.5m now. This one is of concern as he may have security against future transfer fees - which would block (or at least put a massive hole in) one of our potential incomes.

PMG have probably still got security against future income of the Premier Club.

Cheers Tim, Nice bumping in to you today

Cheers Tim, Nice bumping in to you today [/quote]


Cheers Annis,
I hope your family enjoyed it.

Cheers Tim, Nice bumping in to you today

Cheers Annis,
I hope your family enjoyed it.
[/quote]

Great Day, but the money goes quick

Cheers Tim, Nice bumping in to you today

Cheers Annis,
I hope your family enjoyed it.

Great Day, but the money goes quick [/quote]


Yeah, its a nightmare.

2 hours - £30-odd quid.

Blowing it like Ridsdale I was

I'm no expert but I assume a secured loan with the most recent date superceeds the others. There is also a complication that some loans are secured against the Holding Company (CCFC Holdings) some against the Football club (CCFC) and others against the Stadium Company (Cardiff City Stadium Ltd)

How you work out the pecking order is beyond my knowledge.

But as for the Holding Company a firm called Erskine Finance have the most recent charge (6 July) and Vincent Tan is next (1 July)

Ransons charge seems to be against the football club and was created on 28 May under the name of Player Finance Fund.

Finally Compass have a secured charge against Cardiff City Stadium which is dated 9 July 2009.

Unfortunately none of the paperwork at Companies House gives specific amounts which are owed.

PMG certainly had a secured charge against the football club and holding company dated 15 January 2007 and there is nothing to say it has been satisfied or withdrawn.

Secured loans have equal standings when it comes to sdmin etc etc.

Ray Ranson security is a mortgage against the players I think.

Secured loans have equal standings when it comes to sdmin etc etc.

Ray Ranson security is a mortgage against the players I think.

I have no idea who gets what if we went into admin but the words 'first charge' appear on all of them.

None of the mortgages actually name Ranson but I assume the Players Finance Fund is the one relating to him.

There is nothing specific in the documentation to say the mortgage is held against the players values, its just a 'debenture' like the others which lists machinary, property, shares etc.

I'm no expert but I assume a secured loan with the most recent date superceeds the others. There is also a complication that some loans are secured against the Holding Company (CCFC Holdings) some against the Football club (CCFC) and others against the Stadium Company (Cardiff City Stadium Ltd)

How you work out the pecking order is beyond my knowledge.

But as for the Holding Company a firm called Erskine Finance have the most recent charge (6 July) and Vincent Tan is next (1 July)

Ransons charge seems to be against the football club and was created on 28 May under the name of Player Finance Fund.

Finally Compass have a secured charge against Cardiff City Stadium which is dated 9 July 2009.

Unfortunately none of the paperwork at Companies House gives specific amounts which are owed.

PMG certainly had a secured charge against the football club and holding company dated 15 January 2007 and there is nothing to say it has been satisfied or withdrawn.

Good work Tony.

Do you have any details of the charges ? i.e. what they are secured against ?

Erskine Finance are probably the Charlton creditor (hopefully not another one !)

Good work Tony.

Do you have any details of the charges ? i.e. what they are secured against ?

Erskine Finance are probably the Charlton creditor (hopefully not another one !)

This is the text contained for the charge in favour of Vincent Tan. The others are all exactly the same, apart from different dates and names.

Please give us details of the amount secured by the mortgage or charge:

Means all present and future moneys, obligations and liabilities (whether actual or contingent and whether as principal or surety) now or at any time in the future due owing or incurred by Cardiff City Football Club (Holdings) Limited ("the Company") to Tan Sri Dato'Seri Vincent Tan Chee Yioun (the "Lender")under or in connection with a loan agreement between the Company, Cardiff City Football Club Limited and the Lender dated I July 2010

Short particulars


1 by way of first fixed charge, all freehold and leasehold property,
licences, rights of occupation and other interests whatsoever in real
property of the Company vested in it at the date hereof and at any time
hereafter together in each case with the building, fixed plant and
machinery and other fixtures (including tenant's fixtures) from time to
time thereon and the proceeds of sale of any of the foregoing,

2 by way of first equitable mortgage, all other freehold and leasehold
property, licences, rights of occupation and other interests whatsoever
in real property of the Company vested in it at the date hereof and at
any time hereafter together in each case with the building, fixed plant
and machinery and other fixtures {including tenant's fixtures) from time
to time thereon and the proceeds of sale of any of the foregoing,

3 by way of first fixed charge, all plant machinery and other equipment
of the Company (if any) which is owned by the Company at the date hereof
or at any time hereafter,

4. by way of first fixed charge

4.1 all stocks and shares and other interests {including without
prejudice to the generality of the foregoing loan capital indebtedness or
liabilities on any account or in any manner owing to the Company) both
present and future of the Company (and from) any company which now is or
may hereafter become a subsidiary (as defined in section 1159 of the
Companies Act 2006} of the Company; and

4,2 all of the book debts and other debts, revenues and claims now or at any time hereafter due or owing to or purchased or otherwise acquired by the Company together with the full benefit of all guarantees and securities therefore and indemnities in respect thereof, and all liens, reservations of title, rights of tracing and other rights and remedies whatsoever,

Good work Tony.

Do you have any details of the charges ? i.e. what they are secured against ?

Erskine Finance are probably the Charlton creditor (hopefully not another one !)

This is the text contained for the charge in favour of Vincent Tan. The others are all exactly the same, apart from different dates and names.

Please give us details of the amount secured by the mortgage or charge:

Means all present and future moneys, obligations and liabilities (whether actual or contingent and whether as principal or surety) now or at any time in the future due owing or incurred by Cardiff City Football Club (Holdings) Limited ("the Company") to Tan Sri Dato'Seri Vincent Tan Chee Yioun (the "Lender")under or in connection with a loan agreement between the Company, Cardiff City Football Club Limited and the Lender dated I July 2010

Short particulars


1 by way of first fixed charge, all freehold and leasehold property,
licences, rights of occupation and other interests whatsoever in real
property of the Company vested in it at the date hereof and at any time
hereafter together in each case with the building, fixed plant and
machinery and other fixtures (including tenant's fixtures) from time to
time thereon and the proceeds of sale of any of the foregoing,

2 by way of first equitable mortgage, all other freehold and leasehold
property, licences, rights of occupation and other interests whatsoever
in real property of the Company vested in it at the date hereof and at
any time hereafter together in each case with the building, fixed plant
and machinery and other fixtures {including tenant's fixtures) from time
to time thereon and the proceeds of sale of any of the foregoing,

3 by way of first fixed charge, all plant machinery and other equipment
of the Company (if any) which is owned by the Company at the date hereof
or at any time hereafter,

4. by way of first fixed charge

4.1 all stocks and shares and other interests {including without
prejudice to the generality of the foregoing loan capital indebtedness or
liabilities on any account or in any manner owing to the Company) both
present and future of the Company (and from) any company which now is or
may hereafter become a subsidiary (as defined in section 1159 of the
Companies Act 2006} of the Company; and

4,2 all of the book debts and other debts, revenues and claims now or at any time hereafter due or owing to or purchased or otherwise acquired by the Company together with the full benefit of all guarantees and securities therefore and indemnities in respect thereof, and all liens, reservations of title, rights of tracing and other rights and remedies whatsoever,

Thanks Tony.

That`s interesting because that wording of what assets are secured by the charges is fairly standard , but also quite old in format. The reason is that legal case law has established in recent years that it is not possible for anyone who is not the club`s bankers controlling its bank accounts to have a fixed charge over book debts as the above clause 4 claims.

As for who gets first call on the assets where the same assets seem to be covered by each and all of the charges , this is normally dealt with by a Deed of Priorities. The person who took security over those assets FIRST will have first call on them unless it gives up that first call by such a Deed and they would normally want something in return - why should they give up being first in line otherwise?

Deeds of Priority don`t have to be published at Companies House so details of any that exist will only be known to the club and the chargeholders themselves.

Also , if a secured creditor has only got a charge registered against one company in the CCFC "group"they may still be secured against the other companies by a company cross guarantee.

Keith

thats as clear as mud,if we do go into admin would there be a distinct possibilty becuase of the debt that we would ever come out of the situation?

Good work Tony.

Do you have any details of the charges ? i.e. what they are secured against ?

Erskine Finance are probably the Charlton creditor (hopefully not another one !)

This is the text contained for the charge in favour of Vincent Tan. The others are all exactly the same, apart from different dates and names.

Please give us details of the amount secured by the mortgage or charge:

Means all present and future moneys, obligations and liabilities (whether actual or contingent and whether as principal or surety) now or at any time in the future due owing or incurred by Cardiff City Football Club (Holdings) Limited ("the Company") to Tan Sri Dato'Seri Vincent Tan Chee Yioun (the "Lender")under or in connection with a loan agreement between the Company, Cardiff City Football Club Limited and the Lender dated I July 2010

Short particulars


1 by way of first fixed charge, all freehold and leasehold property,
licences, rights of occupation and other interests whatsoever in real
property of the Company vested in it at the date hereof and at any time
hereafter together in each case with the building, fixed plant and
machinery and other fixtures (including tenant's fixtures) from time to
time thereon and the proceeds of sale of any of the foregoing,

2 by way of first equitable mortgage, all other freehold and leasehold
property, licences, rights of occupation and other interests whatsoever
in real property of the Company vested in it at the date hereof and at
any time hereafter together in each case with the building, fixed plant
and machinery and other fixtures {including tenant's fixtures) from time
to time thereon and the proceeds of sale of any of the foregoing,

3 by way of first fixed charge, all plant machinery and other equipment
of the Company (if any) which is owned by the Company at the date hereof
or at any time hereafter,

4. by way of first fixed charge

4.1 all stocks and shares and other interests {including without
prejudice to the generality of the foregoing loan capital indebtedness or
liabilities on any account or in any manner owing to the Company) both
present and future of the Company (and from) any company which now is or
may hereafter become a subsidiary (as defined in section 1159 of the
Companies Act 2006} of the Company; and

4,2 all of the book debts and other debts, revenues and claims now or at any time hereafter due or owing to or purchased or otherwise acquired by the Company together with the full benefit of all guarantees and securities therefore and indemnities in respect thereof, and all liens, reservations of title, rights of tracing and other rights and remedies whatsoever,

Nice one Tony.
Although in relation to the PMG one, sometimes it takesd a while for them to be officially withdrawn. I guess it depends against which loan it was originally placed. If it was the original £3m one then that got cleared. Its a murky world !

If they still have guarantee over their £9m, then there is probably a total of £15m secured in total. We wouldn't get much more than that in a break-up