So you want to stay in the EU?

A forum for all things Cardiff City

Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby jon1959 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:19 pm

Calzaghes trainset wrote:
captbirdseye wrote:The sovereignty argument is also bullshit as though we don't have it anymore, and will somehow get it back through Brexit. You do realise that we make our own laws and make changes/recommendations to EU ones. The US and China will make sure that sovereignty gets kick into touch when we when take 20 years to agree a trade deal.


At present our sovereignty lies with the European court of justice.

You can try and argue we make our own laws all you want but the truth is the Eu can have us in court in a heartbeat and change any of our laws.


That is not the truth though. It is true that 50,000 laws enacted in the UK in the last 25 years have been derived from or influenced by EU law (which the UK helped to create), but even the most partisan Leave organisations (often advocates of widescale deregulation) like Business For Britain say that applies to up to 60% of UK law (other organisations and commentators put the % lower). And how does sovereignty lie with the ECJ? The ECJ is supposed to interpret EU law and ensure it is being fairly applied. You could say that the Commission (including UK commissioners) exercises some shared sovereignty through proposing new laws, although they have to be approved by the Council (representatives of the EU states but with votes weighted to reflect population - so the UK has one of the larger voices) and the Parliament (made up of elected MEPs from all countries - including the UK!).

It is easy enough to make a case against the purpose, maybe some laws, and the institutions of the EU (if the referendum had gone the other way I would want to see major reforms to the EU) without making exaggerated or totally inaccurate claims!
User avatar
jon1959
 
Posts: 1105
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 8:00 pm
Location: Sheffield - Hallamshire - out of Roath

Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Advertisement

Advertisement
Login or Register to remove this ad.

Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby Jock » Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:29 pm

jon1959 wrote:
Calzaghes trainset wrote:
captbirdseye wrote:The sovereignty argument is also bullshit as though we don't have it anymore, and will somehow get it back through Brexit. You do realise that we make our own laws and make changes/recommendations to EU ones. The US and China will make sure that sovereignty gets kick into touch when we when take 20 years to agree a trade deal.


At present our sovereignty lies with the European court of justice.

You can try and argue we make our own laws all you want but the truth is the Eu can have us in court in a heartbeat and change any of our laws.


That is not the truth though. It is true that 50,000 laws enacted in the UK in the last 25 years have been derived from or influenced by EU law (which the UK helped to create), but even the most partisan Leave organisations (often advocates of widescale deregulation) like Business For Britain say that applies to up to 60% of UK law (other organisations and commentators put the % lower). And how does sovereignty lie with the ECJ? The ECJ is supposed to interpret EU law and ensure it is being fairly applied. You could say that the Commission (including UK commissioners) exercises some shared sovereignty through proposing new laws, although they have to be approved by the Council (representatives of the EU states but with votes weighted to reflect population - so the UK has one of the larger voices) and the Parliament (made up of elected MEPs from all countries - including the UK!).

It is easy enough to make a case against the purpose, maybe some laws, and the institutions of the EU (if the referendum had gone the other way I would want to see major reforms to the EU) without making exaggerated or totally inaccurate claims!

Pre EU the final decision rested with our HoL now it rests with the ECJ. If we end up with BINO the ECJ will call the shots and we’ll have no influence whatsoever,effectively we’ll be a rule taking vassal state.
Jock
 
Posts: 2023
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2016 7:37 pm

Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby Jock » Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:34 pm

captbirdseye wrote:If that's what you believe then fair enough but don't think for one second that we will magically get through endless trade deals in a short amount time especially when we don't even have the expertise.

The only possible way would be bending over backwards for deregulation. Just look at what US lobbyists are proposing for our free trade deal.

Our own Government said we'd have free trade deals sorted and ready to sign on 29th March. I'm still looking.

Your still looking because remainers like May and Hammond are negotiating our exit. What was needed was a Thatcher or a Trump fighting our corner.
Jock
 
Posts: 2023
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2016 7:37 pm

Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby Bananas » Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:44 pm

#wexit
Bananas
 
Posts: 1280
Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:18 pm

Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby Jock » Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:47 pm

Bananas wrote:#wexit

I asked you to clarify a few points about Welsh independence....you ducked them because you have nothing. A pointless troll, nothing more.
Jock
 
Posts: 2023
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2016 7:37 pm

Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby Scandinavianbluebird » Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:51 pm

At least you have managed to make a "non deal deal" with the best out there. So congratulations striking a deal with the Norwegians :occasion5:
User avatar
Scandinavianbluebird
 
Posts: 1527
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2014 8:40 am

Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby Jimmy Scoular » Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:01 pm

I am feeling the heated debate should not erode one's sense of humour have a butchers at this. It's hysterical:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3TT1VE8Jq0
Jimmy Scoular
 
Posts: 516
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 11:54 am

Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby rumpo kid » Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:58 pm

Jimmy Scoular wrote:I am feeling the heated debate should not erode one's sense of humour have a butchers at this. It's hysterical:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3TT1VE8Jq0


It sure is. And it exhibits that cheery British humour, when coming second is celebrated with such bonhomie.
rumpo kid
 
Posts: 1295
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2012 8:24 pm

Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby Tony Blue Williams » Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:02 pm

swilsh wrote:I don’t think that people who voted to leave are morons. plenty of reasonable arguments for leaving the EU. The democratic deficit, difficulties of a two speed Europe, wanting to resist further pooling of sovereignty, believing a state should have an independent immigration policy, these are all logical arguments for choosing to leave the EU.

Leaving without a deal is not the same thing. Leaving is a barbaric act of self-harm and those claiming WTO would be better have no logic on their side. WTO terms are a terrible position to be in, and will tie our hands in any negotiations with other states in the future. The rules of Most Favoured Nation status means that we will have little to no leverage if the plums arguing for zero tariff on all imports win.

I reiterate you’re not a moron if you voted to leave. No reasonable person advocated voting for leaving with no deal during the referendum. It was supposed to be “the easiest deal in history” we were supposed to be “holding all the cards”. Arguing that no deal was what was voted for now is blatantly dishonest.

I think we should leave the EU, but there are many ways to do that which doesn’t destroy our economy for years and years to come.
And pro EU people said exactly the same before we left the ERM before we didn't join the Euro and before the 2016 referendum saying the world would fall in just for voting to leave (remember Osborne's punishment budjet?). They were wrong every time.......
User avatar
Tony Blue Williams
 
Posts: 13243
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:25 am

Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby Jock » Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:46 pm

Tony Blue Williams wrote:
swilsh wrote:I don’t think that people who voted to leave are morons. plenty of reasonable arguments for leaving the EU. The democratic deficit, difficulties of a two speed Europe, wanting to resist further pooling of sovereignty, believing a state should have an independent immigration policy, these are all logical arguments for choosing to leave the EU.

Leaving without a deal is not the same thing. Leaving is a barbaric act of self-harm and those claiming WTO would be better have no logic on their side. WTO terms are a terrible position to be in, and will tie our hands in any negotiations with other states in the future. The rules of Most Favoured Nation status means that we will have little to no leverage if the plums arguing for zero tariff on all imports win.

I reiterate you’re not a moron if you voted to leave. No reasonable person advocated voting for leaving with no deal during the referendum. It was supposed to be “the easiest deal in history” we were supposed to be “holding all the cards”. Arguing that no deal was what was voted for now is blatantly dishonest.

I think we should leave the EU, but there are many ways to do that which doesn’t destroy our economy for years and years to come.
And pro EU people said exactly the same before we left the ERM before we didn't join the Euro and before the 2016 referendum saying the world would fall in just for voting to leave (remember Osborne's punishment budjet?). They were wrong every time.......

They’re not having it.
Jock
 
Posts: 2023
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2016 7:37 pm

Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby ealing_ayatollah » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:19 pm

Jimmy Scoular wrote:I am feeling the heated debate should not erode one's sense of humour have a butchers at this. It's hysterical:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3TT1VE8Jq0

It's OK the swiss have our back :clap:


I'm just a wine drinking monkey that has a penchant for fine bannanas. You can check out my human alter-ego singing and speaking nonsense on the you tube if you like @ https://www.youtube.com/user/sibaronimusic
User avatar
ealing_ayatollah
 
Posts: 1084
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:29 pm

Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby ealing_ayatollah » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:48 pm

Interesting fact. Within this thread, unprovoked name calling from remainers outnumbers the unprovoked name calling by brexiteers by five to one (with the one from our side being my piss take post of Dave IQ 67, but then I am just a wine drinking monkey so I shouldn't really count)

Yes, I'm that sad that I counted them up. Not that anyone's keeping scores or anything.

#WrongSideOfHistory

:ayatollah:
I'm just a wine drinking monkey that has a penchant for fine bannanas. You can check out my human alter-ego singing and speaking nonsense on the you tube if you like @ https://www.youtube.com/user/sibaronimusic
User avatar
ealing_ayatollah
 
Posts: 1084
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:29 pm

Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby Bluedriver » Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:45 am

A no deal brexit will remove freetrade within the EU. Under WTO rules all exports will have duty/VAT to be reclaimed. How many products are unique to the UK and cannot be manufactured elsewhere in the EU? Not many is the simple answer! Why would anybody in the EU buy from the UK when they can buy the same product under free trade conditions from elsewhere in the EU? In 2017 44% of all UK exports were to the EU, £274 billion. A no deal Brexit is a disaster for UK manufacturing and UK jobs.
Bluedriver
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:48 pm

Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby Igovernor » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:12 am

Bluedriver wrote:A no deal brexit will remove freetrade within the EU. Under WTO rules all exports will have duty/VAT to be reclaimed. How many products are unique to the UK and cannot be manufactured elsewhere in the EU? Not many is the simple answer! Why would anybody in the EU buy from the UK when they can buy the same product under free trade conditions from elsewhere in the EU? In 2017 44% of all UK exports were to the EU, £274 billion. A no deal Brexit is a disaster for UK manufacturing and UK jobs.


£341 billion imported to the uk from the eu, absolutely no one knows what a no deal brexit will be like! but I do reckon that the eu will be worse off, than the uk!
User avatar
Igovernor
 
Posts: 4253
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:17 am

Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby Bluedriver » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:24 am

Igovernor wrote:
Bluedriver wrote:A no deal brexit will remove freetrade within the EU. Under WTO rules all exports will have duty/VAT to be reclaimed. How many products are unique to the UK and cannot be manufactured elsewhere in the EU? Not many is the simple answer! Why would anybody in the EU buy from the UK when they can buy the same product under free trade conditions from elsewhere in the EU? In 2017 44% of all UK exports were to the EU, £274 billion. A no deal Brexit is a disaster for UK manufacturing and UK jobs.


£341 billion imported to the uk from the eu, absolutely no one knows what a no deal brexit will be like! but I do reckon that the eu will be worse off, than the uk!


£341 split between 27 countries. Much less impact per country, per head than in the UK.
Bluedriver
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:48 pm

Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby Jock » Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:10 am

Bluedriver wrote:A no deal brexit will remove freetrade within the EU. Under WTO rules all exports will have duty/VAT to be reclaimed. How many products are unique to the UK and cannot be manufactured elsewhere in the EU? Not many is the simple answer! Why would anybody in the EU buy from the UK when they can buy the same product under free trade conditions from elsewhere in the EU? In 2017 44% of all UK exports were to the EU, £274 billion. A no deal Brexit is a disaster for UK manufacturing and UK jobs.

Your counting British Exports that transit through ports like Rotterdam on their way to non eu countries. In truth the EU takes just over a third of our exports and that’s been falling Year on year. I’ve asked a few times but still waiting on an answer from a remainiac,why is FDI higher in the U.K. than any EU country, if yourright and Brexit (what you call no deal Brexit is what we voted for) is going to be a disaster why are foreign investors pumping money into this country and not other EU countries?
Jock
 
Posts: 2023
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2016 7:37 pm

Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby rumpo kid » Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:16 am

Your beard will be down to your arse before that happens Jock..
rumpo kid
 
Posts: 1295
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2012 8:24 pm

Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby mistaflux75 » Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:20 am

Wow!! I cannot believe how some people on here are so insulting to others just for posting an opinion. Seems to always be the whinging, bitching remainers. Get over it, you lost, we are leaving!!
mistaflux75
 
Posts: 118
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:31 pm

Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby Jock » Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:21 am

Bluedriver wrote:
Igovernor wrote:
Bluedriver wrote:A no deal brexit will remove freetrade within the EU. Under WTO rules all exports will have duty/VAT to be reclaimed. How many products are unique to the UK and cannot be manufactured elsewhere in the EU? Not many is the simple answer! Why would anybody in the EU buy from the UK when they can buy the same product under free trade conditions from elsewhere in the EU? In 2017 44% of all UK exports were to the EU, £274 billion. A no deal Brexit is a disaster for UK manufacturing and UK jobs.


£341 billion imported to the uk from the eu, absolutely no one knows what a no deal brexit will be like! but I do reckon that the eu will be worse off, than the uk!


£341 split between 27 countries. Much less impact per country, per head than in the UK.

Countries like Cyprus, Malta, Lithuania,Estonia, Latvia or Slovenia? Fact is Italy is bolloxed, France is not far behind and Germany is on the brink of recession, we are the biggest export market for the Netherlands we buy lots of German Cars and French wine, do you really believe other EU countries will take up the slack when we leave. Which leaves individual countries fekked because they can’t do individual trade deals with non eu states because everything has to be as a block.
Jock
 
Posts: 2023
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2016 7:37 pm

Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby Jock » Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:22 am

rumpo kid wrote:Your beard will be down to your arse before that happens Jock..

Had it trimmed yesterday....and you’re freaking me out :old: :old:
Jock
 
Posts: 2023
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2016 7:37 pm

Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby pembroke allan » Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:06 am

Igovernor wrote:
Bluedriver wrote:A no deal brexit will remove freetrade within the EU. Under WTO rules all exports will have duty/VAT to be reclaimed. How many products are unique to the UK and cannot be manufactured elsewhere in the EU? Not many is the simple answer! Why would anybody in the EU buy from the UK when they can buy the same product under free trade conditions from elsewhere in the EU? In 2017 44% of all UK exports were to the EU, £274 billion. A no deal Brexit is a disaster for UK manufacturing and UK jobs.


£341 billion imported to the uk from the eu, absolutely no one knows what a no deal brexit will be like! but I do reckon that the eu will be worse off, than the uk!




No deal would mean EU would have to strike some sort of deal anyway regarding lots of things like flights freight ect ect as if not the economies of several countries will go down the pan as in precarious position already? Yes we will suffer but our economy is more robust that's for sure :old:
User avatar
pembroke allan
 
Posts: 18528
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:00 pm
Location: Cardiff

Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby Tony Blue Williams » Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:11 am

Jock wrote:Countries like Cyprus, Malta, Lithuania,Estonia, Latvia or Slovenia? Fact is Italy is bolloxed, France is not far behind and Germany is on the brink of recession, we are the biggest export market for the Netherlands we buy lots of German Cars and French wine, do you really believe other EU countries will take up the slack when we leave. Which leaves individual countries fekked because they can’t do individual trade deals with non eu states because everything has to be as a block.


Ireland will be the hardest hit by a no deal BREXIT. They are also facing a back lash from UK consumers like me who now go out of their way to NOT buy Irish produce because of the awful conduct during BREXIT negotiations.

Let's see if the flagging EU comes running to their rescue post BREXIT? Or will France and Germany again adopt self interest when it suits them? I'm pretty sure we know the answer Jock.
User avatar
Tony Blue Williams
 
Posts: 13243
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:25 am

Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby Tony Blue Williams » Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:18 am

mistaflux75 wrote:Wow!! I cannot believe how some people on here are so insulting to others just for posting an opinion. Seems to always be the whinging, bitching remainers. Get over it, you lost, we are leaving!!


Nearly 3 years on and most people are used to it by now and frankly it has no impact as it proves they are losing the argument. The whole EEC/EU project from the start was about deluding people by frighten them with horror stories about the alternatives.

However as the say goes "you can fool the people some of the time but you can't fool them all of the time" proves that there are many strong willed individuals in this country who won't swallow the nonsense that comes from the remain side of the argument.

And thank God for that!
User avatar
Tony Blue Williams
 
Posts: 13243
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:25 am

Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby rumpo kid » Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:56 am

Tusk knows the EU is dead after we leave, which is why he’s shooting from the hip. Mays deal is dreadful, no deal looks the best deal at the moment.
rumpo kid
 
Posts: 1295
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2012 8:24 pm

Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby Liles93 » Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:08 pm

Think regardless of how people voted, we can largely agree that it hasn't been handled as well as it could. Unfortunately both the government and opposition are in turmoil right now and we've all had tunnel vision for Brexit for two years. It would not surprise me to see big changes in our electoral system after Brexit is over and implemented (whenever or however that may be!).
Liles93
 
Posts: 900
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2013 1:38 pm
Location: London

Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby Jock » Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:40 pm

Liles93 wrote:Think regardless of how people voted, we can largely agree that it hasn't been handled as well as it could. Unfortunately both the government and opposition are in turmoil right now and we've all had tunnel vision for Brexit for two years. It would not surprise me to see big changes in our electoral system after Brexit is over and implemented (whenever or however that may be!).

I think both Labour and The Tory’s will split post Brexit and the two party system is finished.
Jock
 
Posts: 2023
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2016 7:37 pm

Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby Calzaghes trainset » Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:53 pm

jon1959 wrote:
Calzaghes trainset wrote:
captbirdseye wrote:The sovereignty argument is also bullshit as though we don't have it anymore, and will somehow get it back through Brexit. You do realise that we make our own laws and make changes/recommendations to EU ones. The US and China will make sure that sovereignty gets kick into touch when we when take 20 years to agree a trade deal.


At present our sovereignty lies with the European court of justice.

You can try and argue we make our own laws all you want but the truth is the Eu can have us in court in a heartbeat and change any of our laws.


That is not the truth though. It is true that 50,000 laws enacted in the UK in the last 25 years have been derived from or influenced by EU law (which the UK helped to create), but even the most partisan Leave organisations (often advocates of widescale deregulation) like Business For Britain say that applies to up to 60% of UK law (other organisations and commentators put the % lower). And how does sovereignty lie with the ECJ? The ECJ is supposed to interpret EU law and ensure it is being fairly applied. You could say that the Commission (including UK commissioners) exercises some shared sovereignty through proposing new laws, although they have to be approved by the Council (representatives of the EU states but with votes weighted to reflect population - so the UK has one of the larger voices) and the Parliament (made up of elected MEPs from all countries - including the UK!).

It is easy enough to make a case against the purpose, maybe some laws, and the institutions of the EU (if the referendum had gone the other way I would want to see major reforms to the EU) without making exaggerated or totally inaccurate claims!


It is pretty accurate the Eu create a law and the eco enforce it.

Dress it up all you like.
Calzaghes trainset
 
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:26 pm

Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby mistaflux75 » Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:15 pm

Tony Blue Williams wrote:
mistaflux75 wrote:Wow!! I cannot believe how some people on here are so insulting to others just for posting an opinion. Seems to always be the whinging, bitching remainers. Get over it, you lost, we are leaving!!


Nearly 3 years on and most people are used to it by now and frankly it has no impact as it proves they are losing the argument. The whole EEC/EU project from the start was about deluding people by frighten them with horror stories about the alternatives.

However as the say goes "you can fool the people some of the time but you can't fool them all of the time" proves that there are many strong willed individuals in this country who won't swallow the nonsense that comes from the remain side of the argument.

And thank God for that!


Well put mate. I forgot to add that I'm a Grangetown lad and not a vally lad. He's delusional to put it mildly.
mistaflux75
 
Posts: 118
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:31 pm

Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby Liles93 » Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:10 pm

Jock wrote:
Liles93 wrote:Think regardless of how people voted, we can largely agree that it hasn't been handled as well as it could. Unfortunately both the government and opposition are in turmoil right now and we've all had tunnel vision for Brexit for two years. It would not surprise me to see big changes in our electoral system after Brexit is over and implemented (whenever or however that may be!).

I think both Labour and The Tory’s will split post Brexit and the two party system is finished.


I would agree, and to be honest some change might be nice!
Liles93
 
Posts: 900
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2013 1:38 pm
Location: London

Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

Postby malcolmpring » Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:40 pm

I'd be happy just to stay in the premier league :ayatollah:
malcolmpring
 
Posts: 32
Joined: Sat Aug 03, 2013 7:44 pm

PreviousNext


Return to General Chat

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Alexa [Bot], blemmy, bluebirdoct1962, Google [Bot], philfromrhiwbina, Rumneyblue86, rumpo kid and 197 guests

Disclaimer :
The views and comments entered in these forums are personal and are not necessarily those of the management of this board.
The management of this board is not responsible for the content of any external internet sites.