INVESTIGATION: TACKLING SCOURGE OF 'ILLEGAL' FLIGHTS

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INVESTIGATION: TACKLING SCOURGE OF 'ILLEGAL' FLIGHTS

Postby Sven » Tue May 14, 2019 11:08 am

ANALYSIS: Tackling the scourge of illegal charter
By Kate Sarsfield -13th May 2019

The highly-publicised fatal crash on 21 January of a Piper Malibu PA-46-310P carrying Premiership footballer Emiliano Sala has put the practice of illegal or “grey” chartering – where aircraft that have not been approved for paying passengers are used for air taxi services – under the spotlight.

The tragic event has mobilised Europe’s charter industry to stamp out this widespread practice once and for all, and to promote the importance of properly regulated and safety-conscious public transport operators to the many users of private aviation.

Sala was the sole passenger of a US-registered Piper Malibu Mirage PA-46-310P (N264DB) that crashed into the sea off the coast of Guernsey in the Channel Islands, killing him and the pilot, David Ibbotson. The piston-single was en route from Sala’s former club in Nantes, France to his new home in Cardiff, Wales.

UK investigators are seeking to establish the cause of the accident, the licensing arrangements used, and the nature of the agreement that led to Ibbotson carrying out the flight – in particular whether a commercial transaction was made to transport the young footballer to his new club in the Welsh capital.

Under European regulations, if a flight is operated for hire and reward, it is classified as an air taxi service and the business must be approved by the relevant aviation authority to carry paying passengers. The aircraft must also be approved for this role and piloted by a professionally-trained crew under an air operator certificate (AOC).

Early evidence released by the UK’s Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB) reveals that Ibbotson held only a private pilot’s licence, which does not allow for carrying fare-paying passengers. The AAIB is also probing whether the flight was conducted under a “cost-sharing” agreement.

The system of cost- or ride-sharing allows passengers to contribute towards the pilot's direct operating costs – such as fuel and landing fees – on a pre-determined trip advertised by the pilot. The flight cannot be made for commercial gain or for valuable consideration. Furthermore N-registered aircraft – which operate under Federal Aviation Administration regulations – cannot be used under cost-sharing rules for the purpose of merely transporting the passenger.

Dave Edwards, chief executive of charter industry body the Air Charter Association (BACA), says the Sala case raises “significant concerns”, but the doomed flight was just one of a dozen journeys made between the UK and France in the six weeks before the crash by the various parties involved in Sala’s transfer deal.

“We have done our research into these flights. We've identified which aircraft they were and the routes they flew, and that gave us rise for significant concern," says Edwards. "There’s enough for us to feel that the authorities need to be looking very closely at this to make sure everyone is keeping the interests of the travelling public at the forefront of their minds."


Adam Twidell, founder and chief executive of PrivateFly, one of Europe’s largest business aircraft brokers, says sports teams are regular users of private aviation, and football transfer periods – in this case the 1-31 January window – can create a boost in demand for many brokers and operators.

Business aircraft are very effective at this time, Twidell says, as “most of the meetings [between agents, clubs and players] are scheduled at short notice, in secrecy and under tight time pressures”.

While many business aircraft flights are arranged by reputable brokers and performed by professional operators, Twidell is concerned that people from outside the aviation industry may be unaware of the regulations governing the market, and therefore inadvertently facilitate an illegal operation.

Many people, he says, have little knowledge of the dangers of booking an illegal charter, or even what an illegal charter is. The problem has been exacerbated over the past decade with the arrival of the digital charter marketplace, which has opened up the sector to a wave of new business models.

While this change has been positive for the industry and the end-user, Twidell argues it also has the downside of allowing more “bedroom brokers” to create a misleading shopfront for themselves. “It’s time for change,” says Twidell, who is also chair of the European Business Aviation Association (EBAA) charter committee.

He is calling on his fellow brokers – who he describes as "the fundamental lifeblood of the business aviation industry" – to take action and help to stamp out bad practice. “This is a commercial pipeline that should not be held back, but must become more professional going forward. We're at a fragile stage in the business aviation growth cycle where we cannot risk customers losing confidence in us all due to the shady practices of the few.”

Brokers need to educate companies and industry sector organisations about choosing private aviation suppliers carefully, Twidell believes.

For Edwards, this “education” should also be focused on the perpetrators of illegal charter flights. ”We hope that the section of the aviation world which operates illegally takes time to reflect on why they are doing what they are doing, and to assess the risks that they are putting themselves and their passengers under,” he says.

According to a legal expert, an AOC holder takes all of the operational risk of public transport and is responsible if something goes wrong. For private owners who allow their aircraft to be used for illegal public charter, that risk and liability remains with them – and if a flight is performed illegally it could invalidate any otherwise applicable insurance coverage, including the passenger’s own life insurance.

John Hill, chief pilot and head of operations with UK helicopter operator Capital Air Services, says the consequences of an illegal charter for passengers cannot be overstated: ”There is no oversight or protection – they could be prosecuted for aiding and abetting a criminal act. Worse still they could be left with life-threatening injuries with no prospect of compensation and their next of kin could receive no payout in the event of death.”

Describing illegal charter activity as “rife”, Hill says: “It’s hard to put an exact number on it, but there are many flights taking place each day that are blatantly unlawful.”

Many people use these services out of ignorance and because they are typically cheaper than hiring a public transport operator to conduct the flight. To illustrate his point, Hill describes a recent experience when a customer openly admitted to hiring his friend’s single-engine aircraft for a trip, rather than pay a higher price for Capital’s service. “Public transport operators are more expensive because of the overheads involved in meeting the required levels of oversight, safety and security,” Hill says.

There is a huge amount of work, time and expense involved in setting up and maintaining an AOC. It is the same requirement for a simple public transport/charter operator as it is for a major airline like British Airways, says Hill, “but they have a support cast of thousands”.

The list of roles required to maintain the operation is costly and extensive. There is an accountable manager – who Hill describes as “the person responsible for everything, and the one in the dock when something goes wrong” – as well as a flight operations post holder, managers for crew training, ground operations, safety management systems, compliance, quality and continued airworthiness – along with a head of flight safety and a dangerous goods officer.

“Most of these personnel are subject to rigorous interview and ongoing scrutiny from the regulator,” says Hill. As highly-skilled individuals they also command senior management salaries.

All staff have to comply with various training programmes, including safety, quality and dangerous goods. For the pilots there is also a requirement to undergo crew resource management, first aid, fire and smoke training. Pilots must also have six-monthly simulator training, even those in part-time roles. Annual audits are also mandatory, including for third-party service providers to ensure they meet the same standards.

“The illegal charter market does none of the above. They’ll buy a worn-out Seneca, take a handful of grubby twenties and just go,” says Hill.

These measures are designed to ensure the safety of the paying/travelling public and those on the ground, he adds. They also enable AOC operators to account for their actions and standards of planning, training and maintenance. “All this comes at a cost, not shared by the illegal charter market. These are the people who are cutting the throats of the AOC holders,” says Hill.

He singles out the cost-sharing market for scrutiny. While this practice was established to allow private pilots to build up their hours by sharing the costs of the flight down the middle with travellers heading to same destination, Hill argues that it is increasingly being used as illegal charter through the back door. “It has become so relaxed to the point where it is nearly impossible to prove a criminal act,” he says.

BACA’s Edwards agrees. The fierce competition for business across Europe’s charter market is squeezing the already very narrow profit margins of public transport operators, he says, many of whom are struggling to make ends meet.

The price paid for a charter flight is usually a “direct profit to the illegal charterers”, says Edwards, who is also a director of UK management and charter company Synergy Aviation. But for regulated providers the fee goes towards the overhead costs of safety, security, training and compliance specialists – directly and invisibly looking after passenger safety in the background. “It’s not cheaper, it’s just cutting something incredibly vital out of the process of making you safe,” he says.


Edwards believes the responsibility for illegal charter activity ultimately lies with the flight crew. “It’s within the control of the pilots operating these flights to stop it from happening and stop the belief that they are either above the law, or are invincible,” he says.

If they don’t then the industry must to continue to push the authorities to stop it from happening. Unfortunately, industry’s attempts to stamp out illegal charter over the years have been largely ineffective. Edwards points to only one prosecution in the UK “in recent history” that has resulted in a prison sentence.

This guilty party in that case was Robert Murgatroyd, the pilot of PA28 Cherokee who was detained in March for three years and six months for carrying out an illegal charter flight in September 2017. Despite only holding a PPL, Murgatroyd charged his three passengers £500 ($580) each for a birdwatching trip, from Manchester to the Isle of Barra in Scotland. The piston-single was 193kg (426lb) over the aircraft’s maximum take-off weight of 975kg and crashed into a field soon after take off. Nobody was seriously injured. Murgatroyd was convicted on seven charges including recklessly endangering the safety of an aircraft or persons in an aircraft, conducting a public transport flight without an AOC and acting as a pilot without holding an appropriate licence.

Edwards describes successful prosecutions as a “rarity”, especially in the UK, where the penalty for illegal charter is generally a fine of around £500.

A lack of enforcement by national regulators such as the UK Civil Aviation Authority is helping to perpetuate the problem. “We need to see more policing, more successful convictions and stronger penalties, including removals of licences, impounding of aircraft and custodial sentences,” says Edwards. “Only by implementing punishments that really hurt these perpetrators will the practice finally be wiped out”.

For its part the CAA says it takes illegal public transport flying “extremely seriously”. It calls the practice “a clear safety risk” to unsuspecting passengers and says it undermines the livelihood of safety-conscious, law-abiding operators. “We will continue to investigate and prosecute individuals engaged in illegal public transport flights and will always push for the strongest possible sentences,” it says.

The agency urges anyone “thinking about paying for a flight in a light aircraft” to check that the individual or company conducting the flight has an AOC.

The publicity generated from the Sala tragedy has already helped to raise awareness of charter operations, Edwards says. “We are being asked questions by travellers about how they can protect themselves and ensure the aircraft they travel on is safe and legal. We hope that as the investigation into the accident continues, traveller safety remains the most important focus.”

BACA has joined forces with the EBAA to help bring perpetrators of illegal charter activity to book. The trade bodies are gathering data, via a joint reporting mechanism with their members, in an attempt to collect evidence about the practice, where it is most prevalent, and who the frequent offenders are. “It’s a whistle-blower website with anonymous reporting,” says Edwards. “If you think something dodgy is going on, report it..”

BACA is also planning to launch an education campaign to highlight the dangers of illegal charter. “We need to reach as many people so we will put posters up in-flight schools to alert pilots and in VIP terminals to reach the passengers. We will keep petitioning and keep the story going.”

The industry is also seeking to level the playing field between commercial and private operations, and has secured European Union Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) approval to amend two key areas of regulation that it believes drives grey charter: first, allowing AOC holders to use the same runway performance data as their private counterparts, which will open up more airports to the carriers – and second, adjusting crew flight time limitation rules to better reflect the structure of operations by AOC-holder companies.

Marc Bailey, chief executive of the British Business and General Aviation Association, explains that under an AOC, the FTL rules are close to those for a scheduled airline, “even though the operations are not remotely comparable”.

While under private operations there are no limitations to crew flight times, “If you compare the nature of the two operations under an AOC, or a corporate operation with a flight department, they have the backing of an operations and management structure to support decision making, significantly reducing risk,” says Bailey. Under simple private operations there are far fewer checks and balances, often leaving the decision in the hands of the crew on site, he adds.

These changes are expected to be incorporated in around 18 months.


Whilst commercial operators are keen to see the playing field levelled, Edwards says the priority for the industry is protecting the travelling public from illegal suppliers: “Risking lives and safety for the sake of a few hundred pounds is incredibly short-sighted,” he says.
"If only closed minds came with closed mouths!"
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INVESTIGATION: TACKLING SCOURGE OF 'ILLEGAL' FLIGHTS

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Re: INVESTIGATION: TACKLING SCOURGE OF 'ILLEGAL' FLIGHTS

Postby dogfound » Tue May 14, 2019 11:18 am

bit surprised at the lack of accountability regarding ownership / maintenance/ insurance etc re planes...having read much about it regarding the Sala tragedy..
but tbh have not read anywhere of any proof that this was any more than a favour. thinking it is one thing proving it another..

it was clear ES was not paying anything in the texts..so unless either Mckay says he paid for it or someone comes forward and admits they were paid for it I really do not see where this goes...
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Re: INVESTIGATION: TACKLING SCOURGE OF 'ILLEGAL' FLIGHTS

Postby SirJimmySchoular » Tue May 14, 2019 11:31 am

It was more than a favour because the guy who acted as the middle man made a BBC documentary over a year earlier more or less boasting that it was easy to get round the rules .
I said at the outset that this'd be one of the multifarious outcomes of the whole affair, and that it'd open the door to litigation against a number of new defendants for liability plus a new area of defence for all parties including the club.
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Re: INVESTIGATION: TACKLING SCOURGE OF 'ILLEGAL' FLIGHTS

Postby dogfound » Tue May 14, 2019 11:33 am

SirJimmySchoular wrote:It was more than a favour because the guy who acted as the middle man made a BBC documentary over a year earlier more or less boasting that it was easy to get round the rules .
I said at the outset that this'd be one of the multifarious outcomes of the whole affair, and that it'd open the door to litigation against a number of new defendants for liability plus a new area of defence for all parties including the club.



I haven't seen the documentary but thought it was about ferrying planes not people ?
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Re: INVESTIGATION: TACKLING SCOURGE OF 'ILLEGAL' FLIGHTS

Postby SirJimmySchoular » Tue May 14, 2019 11:46 am

dogfound wrote:
SirJimmySchoular wrote:It was more than a favour because the guy who acted as the middle man made a BBC documentary over a year earlier more or less boasting that it was easy to get round the rules .
I said at the outset that this'd be one of the multifarious outcomes of the whole affair, and that it'd open the door to litigation against a number of new defendants for liability plus a new area of defence for all parties including the club.



I haven't seen the documentary but thought it was about ferrying planes not people ?


Yeah it is, you're quite right, but the general sub text is that you can do what the f**k you like if you know how to play the system. I watched it briefly on the recommendation of a BBC reporter I was discussing the case with just after the crash and it was obvious to all concerned that it was the key to guessing what had happened regarding cowboy operating of private aeroplanes, even though it obviously didn't address the Sala crash which hadn't happened yet.

Many many years ago , during holidays, I used to drive a taxi round Cardiff without even having a driving licence , never mind anything like the proper documents and that was commonplace in those days.( I'm talking a long time ago )
No one cared much really till some 18 year old smashed through the front of a chemists shop one day and then they started to do a bit of enforcement . Same with HGV's if you go back far enough.
Same story here I expect . People taking the absolute piss with safety and regulations till someone without the proper documents and insurances causes a big problem ,then they suddenly start enforcing the rules .
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Re: INVESTIGATION: TACKLING SCOURGE OF 'ILLEGAL' FLIGHTS

Postby 2blue2handle » Tue May 14, 2019 11:49 am

I thought the agent guy McKay confirmed in the BBC interview that he had paid for the flight.
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Re: INVESTIGATION: TACKLING SCOURGE OF 'ILLEGAL' FLIGHTS

Postby dogfound » Tue May 14, 2019 11:54 am

SirJimmySchoular wrote:
dogfound wrote:
SirJimmySchoular wrote:It was more than a favour because the guy who acted as the middle man made a BBC documentary over a year earlier more or less boasting that it was easy to get round the rules .
I said at the outset that this'd be one of the multifarious outcomes of the whole affair, and that it'd open the door to litigation against a number of new defendants for liability plus a new area of defence for all parties including the club.



I haven't seen the documentary but thought it was about ferrying planes not people ?


Yeah it is, you're quite right, but the general sub text is that you can do what the f**k you like if you know how to play the system. I watched it briefly on the recommendation of a BBC reporter I was discussing the case with just after the crash and it was obvious to all concerned that it was the key to guessing what had happened regarding cowboy operating of private aeroplanes, even though it obviously didn't address the Sala crash which hadn't happened yet.

Many many years ago , during holidays, I used to drive a taxi round Cardiff without even having a driving licence , never mind anything like the proper documents and that was commonplace in those days.( I'm talking a long time ago )
No one cared much really till some 18 year old smashed through the front of a chemists shop one day and then they started to do a bit of enforcement . Same with HGV's if you go back far enough.
Same story here I expect . People taking the absolute piss with safety and regulations till someone without the proper documents and insurances causes a big problem ,then they suddenly start enforcing the rules .



its extremely difficult to enforce when there are double rules.....eg
I assume you have a D1 ?...you can go, hire a minibus and you and 9 mates can legally share the hire cost..diesel..and you can drive non stop for 36 hours to Budapest { legally I think its 11 hours max for pro drivers which you are not, so are not legally required to abide by } for the wales game = legal..or you charge them 20 quid each over and above hire/diesel = illegal..to prove that it would take either you to admit payment or a mate on the trip to grass you up...
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Re: INVESTIGATION: TACKLING SCOURGE OF 'ILLEGAL' FLIGHTS

Postby SirJimmySchoular » Tue May 14, 2019 2:10 pm

dogfound wrote:
SirJimmySchoular wrote:
dogfound wrote:
SirJimmySchoular wrote:It was more than a favour because the guy who acted as the middle man made a BBC documentary over a year earlier more or less boasting that it was easy to get round the rules .
I said at the outset that this'd be one of the multifarious outcomes of the whole affair, and that it'd open the door to litigation against a number of new defendants for liability plus a new area of defence for all parties including the club.



I haven't seen the documentary but thought it was about ferrying planes not people ?


Yeah it is, you're quite right, but the general sub text is that you can do what the f**k you like if you know how to play the system. I watched it briefly on the recommendation of a BBC reporter I was discussing the case with just after the crash and it was obvious to all concerned that it was the key to guessing what had happened regarding cowboy operating of private aeroplanes, even though it obviously didn't address the Sala crash which hadn't happened yet.

Many many years ago , during holidays, I used to drive a taxi round Cardiff without even having a driving licence , never mind anything like the proper documents and that was commonplace in those days.( I'm talking a long time ago )
No one cared much really till some 18 year old smashed through the front of a chemists shop one day and then they started to do a bit of enforcement . Same with HGV's if you go back far enough.
Same story here I expect . People taking the absolute piss with safety and regulations till someone without the proper documents and insurances causes a big problem ,then they suddenly start enforcing the rules .



its extremely difficult to enforce when there are double rules.....eg
I assume you have a D1 ?...you can go, hire a minibus and you and 9 mates can legally share the hire cost..diesel..and you can drive non stop for 36 hours to Budapest { legally I think its 11 hours max for pro drivers which you are not, so are not legally required to abide by } for the wales game = legal..or you charge them 20 quid each over and above hire/diesel = illegal..to prove that it would take either you to admit payment or a mate on the trip to grass you up...



No, that was 40 or 50 years ago. I didn't pursue that career, just a holiday job which I lied to get, although I did later get a private hire and Hackney licence down there when they started cracking down and actually I got an HGV 1 in the army too, but that was all in another long ago place.
I see what you're saying though and of course you're quite right that it's exactly the same sort of thing.
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Re: INVESTIGATION: TACKLING SCOURGE OF 'ILLEGAL' FLIGHTS

Postby dogfound » Tue May 14, 2019 2:20 pm

SirJimmySchoular wrote:
dogfound wrote:
SirJimmySchoular wrote:
dogfound wrote:
SirJimmySchoular wrote:It was more than a favour because the guy who acted as the middle man made a BBC documentary over a year earlier more or less boasting that it was easy to get round the rules .
I said at the outset that this'd be one of the multifarious outcomes of the whole affair, and that it'd open the door to litigation against a number of new defendants for liability plus a new area of defence for all parties including the club.



I haven't seen the documentary but thought it was about ferrying planes not people ?


Yeah it is, you're quite right, but the general sub text is that you can do what the f**k you like if you know how to play the system. I watched it briefly on the recommendation of a BBC reporter I was discussing the case with just after the crash and it was obvious to all concerned that it was the key to guessing what had happened regarding cowboy operating of private aeroplanes, even though it obviously didn't address the Sala crash which hadn't happened yet.

Many many years ago , during holidays, I used to drive a taxi round Cardiff without even having a driving licence , never mind anything like the proper documents and that was commonplace in those days.( I'm talking a long time ago )
No one cared much really till some 18 year old smashed through the front of a chemists shop one day and then they started to do a bit of enforcement . Same with HGV's if you go back far enough.
Same story here I expect . People taking the absolute piss with safety and regulations till someone without the proper documents and insurances causes a big problem ,then they suddenly start enforcing the rules .



its extremely difficult to enforce when there are double rules.....eg
I assume you have a D1 ?...you can go, hire a minibus and you and 9 mates can legally share the hire cost..diesel..and you can drive non stop for 36 hours to Budapest { legally I think its 11 hours max for pro drivers which you are not, so are not legally required to abide by } for the wales game = legal..or you charge them 20 quid each over and above hire/diesel = illegal..to prove that it would take either you to admit payment or a mate on the trip to grass you up...



No, that was 40 or 50 years ago. I didn't pursue that career, just a holiday job which I lied to get, although I did later get a private hire and Hackney licence down there when they started cracking down and actually I got an HGV 1 in the army too, but that was all in another long ago place.
I see what you're saying though and of course you're quite right that it's exactly the same sort of thing.



if you passed your driving test prior to a certain date ...I think its late 1990s you have D1 on licence which allows you to drive a vehicle carrying upto 16 passengers but not be payed to do so...no max driving hours or max length of driving days , no enforced days off and not even restricted to 62mph either...so id imagine its very difficult to enforce and sounds a lot like these plane journeys...where a flight can be totally legal for friends/ family or as a favour..and completely illegal if paid for..
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Re: INVESTIGATION: TACKLING SCOURGE OF 'ILLEGAL' FLIGHTS

Postby dogfound » Tue May 14, 2019 2:24 pm

2blue2handle wrote:I thought the agent guy McKay confirmed in the BBC interview that he had paid for the flight.



if he said that he is f@@ked...unless he throws someone under a bus and claims no knowledge of the flight not being legal..
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Re: INVESTIGATION: TACKLING SCOURGE OF 'ILLEGAL' FLIGHTS

Postby 2blue2handle » Tue May 14, 2019 3:16 pm

dogfound wrote:
2blue2handle wrote:I thought the agent guy McKay confirmed in the BBC interview that he had paid for the flight.



if he said that he is f@@ked...unless he throws someone under a bus and claims no knowledge of the flight not being legal..


I'm sure he did, it was a filmed BBC interview with him and they asked the question directly because of the flight sharing fuel cost thing that came out.
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Re: INVESTIGATION: TACKLING SCOURGE OF 'ILLEGAL' FLIGHTS

Postby Sven » Tue May 14, 2019 3:27 pm

2blue2handle wrote:
dogfound wrote:
2blue2handle wrote:I thought the agent guy McKay confirmed in the BBC interview that he had paid for the flight.



if he said that he is f@@ked...unless he throws someone under a bus and claims no knowledge of the flight not being legal..


I'm sure he did, it was a filmed BBC interview with him and they asked the question directly because of the flight sharing fuel cost thing that came out.


Luke, he most certainly did :thumbup:
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Re: INVESTIGATION: TACKLING SCOURGE OF 'ILLEGAL' FLIGHTS

Postby SirJimmySchoular » Thu May 16, 2019 10:01 am

dogfound wrote:
SirJimmySchoular wrote:
dogfound wrote:
SirJimmySchoular wrote:
dogfound wrote:
SirJimmySchoular wrote:It was more than a favour because the guy who acted as the middle man made a BBC documentary over a year earlier more or less boasting that it was easy to get round the rules .
I said at the outset that this'd be one of the multifarious outcomes of the whole affair, and that it'd open the door to litigation against a number of new defendants for liability plus a new area of defence for all parties including the club.



I haven't seen the documentary but thought it was about ferrying planes not people ?


Yeah it is, you're quite right, but the general sub text is that you can do what the f**k you like if you know how to play the system. I watched it briefly on the recommendation of a BBC reporter I was discussing the case with just after the crash and it was obvious to all concerned that it was the key to guessing what had happened regarding cowboy operating of private aeroplanes, even though it obviously didn't address the Sala crash which hadn't happened yet.

Many many years ago , during holidays, I used to drive a taxi round Cardiff without even having a driving licence , never mind anything like the proper documents and that was commonplace in those days.( I'm talking a long time ago )
No one cared much really till some 18 year old smashed through the front of a chemists shop one day and then they started to do a bit of enforcement . Same with HGV's if you go back far enough.
Same story here I expect . People taking the absolute piss with safety and regulations till someone without the proper documents and insurances causes a big problem ,then they suddenly start enforcing the rules .



its extremely difficult to enforce when there are double rules.....eg
I assume you have a D1 ?...you can go, hire a minibus and you and 9 mates can legally share the hire cost..diesel..and you can drive non stop for 36 hours to Budapest { legally I think its 11 hours max for pro drivers which you are not, so are not legally required to abide by } for the wales game = legal..or you charge them 20 quid each over and above hire/diesel = illegal..to prove that it would take either you to admit payment or a mate on the trip to grass you up...



No, that was 40 or 50 years ago. I didn't pursue that career, just a holiday job which I lied to get, although I did later get a private hire and Hackney licence down there when they started cracking down and actually I got an HGV 1 in the army too, but that was all in another long ago place.
I see what you're saying though and of course you're quite right that it's exactly the same sort of thing.



if you passed your driving test prior to a certain date ...I think its late 1990s you have D1 on licence which allows you to drive a vehicle carrying upto 16 passengers but not be payed to do so...no max driving hours or max length of driving days , no enforced days off and not even restricted to 62mph either...so id imagine its very difficult to enforce and sounds a lot like these plane journeys...where a flight can be totally legal for friends/ family or as a favour..and completely illegal if paid for..



Yes I see what you mean. Yes then I'm sure I've got one of those . I know I can drive a 7 ton or something by virtue of when I passed the test and strangely it says HGV 3, 2 and 1 even though I don't think that classification even exists any more.
I don't really have occasion to do any of that though so I don't really keep up with it. If I started driving lorries round I'd probably kill someone !
But yes of course you're quite right that it's a similar grey area of loopholes which people exploit and get away with till something serious like this happens.
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Re: INVESTIGATION: TACKLING SCOURGE OF 'ILLEGAL' FLIGHTS

Postby dogfound » Thu May 16, 2019 10:24 am

SirJimmySchoular wrote:
dogfound wrote:
SirJimmySchoular wrote:
dogfound wrote:
SirJimmySchoular wrote:
dogfound wrote:
SirJimmySchoular wrote:It was more than a favour because the guy who acted as the middle man made a BBC documentary over a year earlier more or less boasting that it was easy to get round the rules .
I said at the outset that this'd be one of the multifarious outcomes of the whole affair, and that it'd open the door to litigation against a number of new defendants for liability plus a new area of defence for all parties including the club.



I haven't seen the documentary but thought it was about ferrying planes not people ?


Yeah it is, you're quite right, but the general sub text is that you can do what the f**k you like if you know how to play the system. I watched it briefly on the recommendation of a BBC reporter I was discussing the case with just after the crash and it was obvious to all concerned that it was the key to guessing what had happened regarding cowboy operating of private aeroplanes, even though it obviously didn't address the Sala crash which hadn't happened yet.

Many many years ago , during holidays, I used to drive a taxi round Cardiff without even having a driving licence , never mind anything like the proper documents and that was commonplace in those days.( I'm talking a long time ago )
No one cared much really till some 18 year old smashed through the front of a chemists shop one day and then they started to do a bit of enforcement . Same with HGV's if you go back far enough.
Same story here I expect . People taking the absolute piss with safety and regulations till someone without the proper documents and insurances causes a big problem ,then they suddenly start enforcing the rules .



its extremely difficult to enforce when there are double rules.....eg
I assume you have a D1 ?...you can go, hire a minibus and you and 9 mates can legally share the hire cost..diesel..and you can drive non stop for 36 hours to Budapest { legally I think its 11 hours max for pro drivers which you are not, so are not legally required to abide by } for the wales game = legal..or you charge them 20 quid each over and above hire/diesel = illegal..to prove that it would take either you to admit payment or a mate on the trip to grass you up...



No, that was 40 or 50 years ago. I didn't pursue that career, just a holiday job which I lied to get, although I did later get a private hire and Hackney licence down there when they started cracking down and actually I got an HGV 1 in the army too, but that was all in another long ago place.
I see what you're saying though and of course you're quite right that it's exactly the same sort of thing.



if you passed your driving test prior to a certain date ...I think its late 1990s you have D1 on licence which allows you to drive a vehicle carrying upto 16 passengers but not be payed to do so...no max driving hours or max length of driving days , no enforced days off and not even restricted to 62mph either...so id imagine its very difficult to enforce and sounds a lot like these plane journeys...where a flight can be totally legal for friends/ family or as a favour..and completely illegal if paid for..



Yes I see what you mean. Yes then I'm sure I've got one of those . I know I can drive a 7 ton or something by virtue of when I passed the test and strangely it says HGV 3, 2 and 1 even though I don't think that classification even exists any more.
I don't really have occasion to do any of that though so I don't really keep up with it. If I started driving lorries round I'd probably kill someone !
But yes of course you're quite right that it's a similar grey area of loopholes which people exploit and get away with till something serious like this happens.




for me from day 1 most people have their own all slightly different versions of how it played out..and all involved money changing hands..but without receipts, bank transfers a confession I do not see where the proof is , especially with 2 of the people central to it being dead...

apparently Mckay has said he payed....but..was doing ES a favour which brings up the how much did he pay the organiser of the plane question ..enough for it to be considered commercial...or little enough { aviation fuel / expenses etc } for it to be regarded a favour to McKay by whoever organised the plane ? if I were McKay and the owner trying to get out of it id be saying the later ..

I do not think we will ever actually know all the truth …
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