" General Election "

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Re: " General Election "

Postby ealing_ayatollah » Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:50 pm

CCFCJosh75 wrote:
Tony Blue Williams wrote:
CCFCJosh75 wrote:
Tony Blue Williams wrote:
Sneggyblubird wrote:Sorry to disappoint Tony but project fear is now is now redundant as its quickly becoming project reality,however,this is how I see it.

We make a lot of money net out of the EU regardless of contributions,thats a fact and not open to question.I voted remain but do accept the result,however,I don't think many want to leave without a deal.For Rees-Mogg and his cronies the question is not whats best for this country but a slavish adherence to very old Tory doctrine.They don't even command the majority of conservatives never mind a working parliamentary party.I understand your point of view as I know from your past postings that immigration is a cornerstone of your argument but that won't change even after brexit so you can't blame or chastise those who do not want the cliff edge version.

I would like to see an end to freedom of movement. FoM causes many social problems including homelessness and wage restraint which any good socialist should be against.




Any evidence whatsoever for the homeless point?


The UK population is increasing by 300,000 per year (net). A City the size of Cardiff needs to be built every year to keep up with the housing needs of the UK and that is simply not happening. Walk through Cardiff, Newport or Swansea City Centres and see the dozens of homeless people who can't find accommodation as a result. If you really believe that uncontrolled immigration and homelessness have no link then that is up to you but frankly it is delusional.

There's been homelessness for thousands of years before the EU came into existence, I'm asking for evidence of a causal link between freedom of movement and homelessness.


Number of people sleeping rough in UK in one night in 2018 is estimated at 4,677

This is down on 2017 figures by 74 people (2%), but is up on 2010 figures by 2,909 people (165%)

Number of UK nationals in 2018 was 3,013 which is 64% of the total homeless in 2018. This is a decrease of 318 people (11%) since 2017

Number of EU nationals homeless in the UK increased from 760 in 2017 to 1,048 which is 22% of the total homeless in 2018. This is a 38% increase since 2017

Number of non UK/EU nationals was 153 in 2018 which is 3% of the total. This is down by 40 people, a 21% decrease since 2017.


This would suggest that whilst homelessness is of course not solely down to EU freedom of movement laws, it certainly does play a significant part in the equation as EU homelessness is rising year-on-year whilst homelessness amongst UK and non EU/UK nationals is declining.

Statistics are from the Ministry of Housing and Communities & Local Government's rough sleeping statistics Autumn 2018 for England I'm not sure if it includes Wales in the statistics though (but would anticipate that they would be similar if not)

Source: https://www.gov.uk/government/statistic ... utumn-2018
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Re: " General Election "

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Re: " General Election "

Postby Jock » Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:05 pm

Sneggyblubird wrote:
Tony Blue Williams wrote:
Sneggyblubird wrote:
The choice is between the backstop or a hard border nothing else is on the table.Boris knows if he leaves with no deal there will be a hard border and the collapse of the Good Friday agreement would follow.Just because Boris says they won't operate a border on our side doesn't mean we can interfere with another countries (or group of countries) sovereign right to operate a border at the end of their land.I find it unbelievable that someone who voted leave so we could then operate our sovereign right to stop all these immigrants doesn't seem to acknowledge another countries right to do the same.I'll say it again:The people that voted against the May deal had their reasons and I respect that as I respect your opinion but it cuts both ways and this brainwashed fool doesn't want a no-deal brexit and supports like minded people.Oh and how can you negotiate a trade deal with the EU if your still in the EU.Even the Americans won't enter negotiations with us until we leave.You are putting the Cart before the horse Tony as are many others.


The EU manufactured the Irish backstop by insisting on a Withdrawal deal before a free trade deal. It was perfectly possible to negotiate a free trade before or along side a withdrawal agreement. Your comparison with USA is non-applicable. We can't sign a deal with USA until we leave the EU but we can certainly negotiate a deal in lieu of leaving.

What the EU have done is insisted on a Withdrawal agreement first and then want to talk about a free trade agreement. This causes a hiatus which has been filled by the backstop which is basically a gun to our head whilst we negotiate with EU. That is totally wrong and anyone who argues it's fairness has to be brainwashed.

Further you don't seem to understand what the backstop is? It is a fall back position where the UK is held within the Customs Union and Single Market against its will if we (the UK) do-not accept any old crap trade deal the EU offers. The UK is not erecting a hard boarder which has been ruled out a hundred times. Whatever deal is struck there will be freedom of movement on the Island of Ireland due to agreements made when Ireland gained it's independence in 1922 and the Good Friday agreement in 1998. If the Good Friday Agreement collapses then the fault will lay completely with the EU as they will be the ones erecting a hard boarder.


I'm finding it difficult to find the right words to reply to your last sentence.The Good Friday Agreement brokered by the Americans is solely our responsibility and no one else's.Dominic Rabb uttered this shit as a negotiating tool but very quickly backtracked when reminded of the implications of that statement.Blaming some one else for your responsibility is a cowards way out.Like it or not free movement in Ireland has been the cornerstone of the peace we have all enjoyed for over twenty years now.I get it, you want a clean brake but in doing so you must show respect to all sides of the argument and not just toss away all that you deem as non-important in your little corner of the world.

Southern Ireland have said any checks necessary will away from the border.
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Re: " General Election "

Postby epping blue » Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:50 pm

I see Corbyn's going with a " credible leave option " for the next election. 90% of his party support nothing but remain and he's nothing but a con man. Labour's a fully remain party so why cant they be honest with the electorate ?
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Re: " General Election "

Postby pembroke allan » Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:43 pm

epping blue wrote:I see Corbyn's going with a " credible leave option " for the next election. 90% of his party support nothing but remain and he's nothing but a con man. Labour's a fully remain party so why cant they be honest with the electorate ?




All well and good but then got to get EU to agree to it which wont happen as they know hes a soft touch....
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Re: " General Election "

Postby Jock » Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:53 pm

epping blue wrote:I see Corbyn's going with a " credible leave option " for the next election. 90% of his party support nothing but remain and he's nothing but a con man. Labour's a fully remain party so why cant they be honest with the electorate ?

Corbyn really is a nauseating prick, he vowed to smash capitalism smash globalism and smash the E.U. now a sniff of power and all his long held beliefs go out the window.
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Re: " General Election "

Postby Stevejonesfrom62 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:10 pm

Nowhere near as nauseating as that prick in number 10 even his own rats have left his sinking dinghy lol
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Re: " General Election "

Postby rumpo kid » Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:20 pm

Corbin reminds me of Davros(not the Greek Island)when he gets going.. and look what happened to him..
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Re: " General Election "

Postby Jock » Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:28 pm

Stevejonesfrom62 wrote:Nowhere near as nauseating as that prick in number 10 even his own rats have left his sinking dinghy lol

Boris is an opportunist clown but he’s the only one who’ll get us out of the disastrous EU . I’ve always despised Corbyns politics but thought at least his beliefs were strongly held. A snake.
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Re: " General Election "

Postby Stevejonesfrom62 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:15 pm

The eu hasnt beebn disatrous for wales has it
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Re: " General Election "

Postby pembroke allan » Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:19 pm

Stevejonesfrom62 wrote:The eu hasnt beebn disatrous for wales has it



Maybe not but its led to disastrous wasting of money on vanity enterprises that closed year or so after money spent on it?
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Re: " General Election "

Postby Jock » Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:22 pm

pembroke allan wrote:
Stevejonesfrom62 wrote:The eu hasnt beebn disatrous for wales has it



Maybe not but its led to disastrous wasting of money on vanity enterprises that closed year or so after money spent on it?

Almost half a century of E.U. membership and we’re still a poor region .
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Re: " General Election "

Postby stickywicket » Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:29 pm

New film coming out "How green is your valleys".
The Tories done a good job of returning the Welsh valleys to grass and trees,and to cap it all the Welsh still vote for them .
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Re: " General Election "

Postby pembroke allan » Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:01 pm

Jock wrote:
pembroke allan wrote:
Stevejonesfrom62 wrote:The eu hasnt beebn disatrous for wales has it



Maybe not but its led to disastrous wasting of money on vanity enterprises that closed year or so after money spent on it?

Almost half a century of E.U. membership and we’re still a poor region .



Yes but bet Tories get blame for it? :o
It's a matter of record the absalute wasting of millions of £££££s on vanity causes by mainly labour councils along with WAG! On8ly need to come to pembrokeshire to see millions spent on cycle paths that cyclist dont use and a rd built 20yrs to late all boasting EU funding participation ...... :o
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Re: " General Election "

Postby pembroke allan » Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:06 pm

stickywicket wrote:New film coming out "How green is your valleys".
The Tories done a good job of returning the Welsh valleys to grass and trees,and to cap it all the Welsh still vote for them .



What about labour and wag? They played their part in things? No wonder people voted for the tories and rejected the EU! :thumbup:
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Re: " General Election "

Postby Stan_B » Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:09 am

Stevejonesfrom62 wrote:The eu hasnt beebn disatrous for wales has it

The EU is the equivalent of someone dropping a fiver on the floor, you pick it up while that person lifts your wallet.

Just Google how many businesses have left this country for Eastern Europe with EU grants. The EU has been shafting us like this for many years only people like you cant see it - you only see the grants they give us which are peanuts!
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Re: " General Election "

Postby Jock » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:31 am

stickywicket wrote:New film coming out "How green is your valleys".
The Tories done a good job of returning the Welsh valleys to grass and trees,and to cap it all the Welsh still vote for them .

Wales was a Labour stronghold for decades, we’ve had numerous Labour governments but it’s all the Tory’s fault?
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Re: " General Election "

Postby Sneggyblubird » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:59 am

Stan_B wrote:
Stevejonesfrom62 wrote:The eu hasnt beebn disatrous for wales has it

The EU is the equivalent of someone dropping a fiver on the floor, you pick it up while that person lifts your wallet.

Just Google how many businesses have left this country for Eastern Europe with EU grants. The EU has been shafting us like this for many years only people like you cant see it - you only see the grants they give us which are peanuts!


Jesus,really.While your at it just google the number of British firms that voluntarily outsource their manufacturing to India,China etc.New school uniform for your kids?Highly likely these were made in an Indian Sweatshop by young women that never had the chance of school.

Anyone can have an opinion and google something to back it up.Quoting a very small part of a huge subject is pants.
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Re: " General Election "

Postby epping blue » Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:03 am

epping blue wrote:
worcester_ccfc wrote:There will be an Election before the end of the month. Find it hard to believe that tonight stops that.



They've got the wind in their sails now. Wouldn't be surprised if they try and push through a 2nd referendum before they go back to the country.



I see Tom Watson is now advocating this strategy. He misled his leave voting constituents in 2017 standing under a manifesto to respect the result. Now he wants to con them out of an opportunity to vote on his true beliefs. In 2017 85% of the country voted in 589 MP's who stood under the manifesto commitment of respect the result. Now we know that at least 250 of those were out to deceive us.
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Re: " General Election "

Postby Tony Blue Williams » Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:28 am

CCFCJosh75 wrote:
Tony Blue Williams wrote:
Sneggyblubird wrote:
brickyblue wrote:The county voted leave and for 3 years they been trying to make a deal they cant it's all failed.it doesnt matter what anyone in government wants the vote was to leave .
I admire Johnson's determination to follow through what the voters wanted every thing else is bullshit.
We been a joke for to long get it done deal or not and are country can go forward again after all it's supposed to be a democracy in the country lots in government seem to want to make new rules we voted out get on with it


Boris voted against a deal 3 times mate,hows that following through what the voters wanted?


Theresa May's deal was deliberately made so bad that any self respecting BREXIT voter would have rejected it. There was no need of an Irish backstop because a trade deal could have been negotiated prior to the Withdrawal deal. But the EU insisted on doing things the other way around in order to manufacture the Irish boarder problem.

The idea of the backstop is to keep the UK in the EU by the backdoor and by denying us self determination to leave and instead being reliant on the permission of the EU. Again this is a classic example of the EU bullying and undemocratic way of working. Anyone who sides with the EU is nothing short of a brainwashed fool.

You are aware that we were the ones who proposed the backstop...
Were you too scared that you hadn't got any leavers buzzwords in that you had to throw in the bullying and undemocratic bit at the end? If not could you explain how us proposing something shows that they are undemocratic and bullies?


I fully explained why the backstop was undemocratic because it takes away the UK's right to self determine when it leaves the EU :roll: Why you can't understand that point is beyond me? Also Theresa May's deal which included the backstop SHE asked for was rejected three times by Parliament (one of the votes was a record defeat) exactly because it was recognised by MP's as undemocratic by trapping the UK as a vassal state of the EU.

If you don't understand the detail then please don't get involved with the debate :roll:
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Re: " General Election "

Postby Tony Blue Williams » Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:32 am

CCFCJosh75 wrote:
Jock wrote:Do you believe the EU is a democratic organisation?


Surely the question should be- Do you believe that the EU is undemocratic because the UK proposed something. And my answer to that question is of course not.


:laughing5: :laughing5: :laughing5: :laughing5: :laughing5:

Typical remain dodging :roll: Rather than answer the question simply change it and rig the answer. Pathetic.
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Re: " General Election "

Postby Tony Blue Williams » Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:58 am

Sneggyblubird wrote:
I'm finding it difficult to find the right words to reply to your last sentence.The Good Friday Agreement brokered by the Americans is solely our responsibility and no one else's.Dominic Rabb uttered this shit as a negotiating tool but very quickly backtracked when reminded of the implications of that statement.Blaming some one else for your responsibility is a cowards way out.Like it or not free movement in Ireland has been the cornerstone of the peace we have all enjoyed for over twenty years now.I get it, you want a clean brake but in doing so you must show respect to all sides of the argument and not just toss away all that you deem as non-important in your little corner of the world.


I have you considered that the real reason you are finding it difficult to find words to reply is that you have repeatedly lost the argument?

Your latest tact is to call me a coward for blaming the EU for the failure of FoM in Ireland? Firstly FoM hasn't failed I was talking about a future scenario.

Also FoM has existed in Ireland since 1922 not 1998 and the UK has made it clear we will not introduce boarder checks. Therefore the only way a hard boarder will exist is if Ireland at the behest of the EU introduce boarder checks. If that happens and FoM ends then obviously that will be the fault of Ireland/EU as they will be responsible for their actions.

Your last sentence really shows how desperate your argument is becoming. As stated the UK has made it clear they will not introduce boarder checks (I fully support that) so how is it that the UK (and I) are not showing 'respect' to Ireland and the EU?

Finally if I want a clean break then why can't you respect my self determination to make that choice rather than making irrational outbursts about me personally?
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Re: " General Election "

Postby Tony Blue Williams » Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:22 am

CCFCJosh75 wrote:There's been homelessness for thousands of years before the EU came into existence, I'm asking for evidence of a causal link between freedom of movement and homelessness.


Figures for 2018 show that 3.7m EU born migrants live in the UK or 5.7% of the population most of whom have arrived since 2004. On average 150,000 houses have been built each year since 2005 around 2m. Also added to EU migration is 200,000 non-EU migrants per year which at a stroke wipes out any new housing built.

It is basic mathematics that if you have too many people and not enough housing a deficit will occur causing a supply and demand situation. Rents and house prices rise as competition for housing becomes fierce and people end up on the streets because they can't afford to be housed.

I have helped my homeless people when I worked at the CAB and I heard the same story time and again. I will admit that benefit changes have also contributed but the most fundamental problem with homelessness is the lack of affordable housing.
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Re: " General Election "

Postby BlueGog » Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:26 am

Tony Blue Williams wrote:
Sneggyblubird wrote:
I'm finding it difficult to find the right words to reply to your last sentence.The Good Friday Agreement brokered by the Americans is solely our responsibility and no one else's.Dominic Rabb uttered this shit as a negotiating tool but very quickly backtracked when reminded of the implications of that statement.Blaming some one else for your responsibility is a cowards way out.Like it or not free movement in Ireland has been the cornerstone of the peace we have all enjoyed for over twenty years now.I get it, you want a clean brake but in doing so you must show respect to all sides of the argument and not just toss away all that you deem as non-important in your little corner of the world.


I have you considered that the real reason you are finding it difficult to find words to reply is that you have repeatedly lost the argument?

Your latest tact is to call me a coward for blaming the EU for the failure of FoM in Ireland? Firstly FoM hasn't failed I was talking about a future scenario.

Also FoM has existed in Ireland since 1922 not 1998 and the UK has made it clear we will not introduce boarder checks. Therefore the only way a hard boarder will exist is if Ireland at the behest of the EU introduce boarder checks. If that happens and FoM ends then obviously that will be the fault of Ireland/EU as they will be responsible for their actions.

Your last sentence really shows how desperate your argument is becoming. As stated the UK has made it clear they will not introduce boarder checks (I fully support that) so how is it that the UK (and I) are not showing 'respect' to Ireland and the EU?

Finally if I want a clean break then why can't you respect my self determination to make that choice rather than making irrational outbursts about me personally?


I think you'll find that FoM ended in the north of Ireland during the troubles. This was down to the occupying British not the EU or RoI. There were checkpoints all along the border. The Good Friday agreement and the peace process brought this to an end and FoM was again allowed once again.
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Re: " General Election "

Postby ElyBoy1984 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:15 am

Rumours of a leadership challenge to Corbyn circulating. Tom Watson being touted.
Ohhhhhh Jeremy Corbyn, ohhhhh jeremy Corbyn .....
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Re: " General Election "

Postby Sneggyblubird » Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:16 am

Tony Blue Williams wrote:
Sneggyblubird wrote:
I'm finding it difficult to find the right words to reply to your last sentence.The Good Friday Agreement brokered by the Americans is solely our responsibility and no one else's.Dominic Rabb uttered this shit as a negotiating tool but very quickly backtracked when reminded of the implications of that statement.Blaming some one else for your responsibility is a cowards way out.Like it or not free movement in Ireland has been the cornerstone of the peace we have all enjoyed for over twenty years now.I get it, you want a clean brake but in doing so you must show respect to all sides of the argument and not just toss away all that you deem as non-important in your little corner of the world.


I have you considered that the real reason you are finding it difficult to find words to reply is that you have repeatedly lost the argument?No not by a long shot.AS per though your putting your narrow spin on a far bigger problem and you are actually mirroring the problem insomuch as despite what the EU has said and latterly the Irish PM to Boris that if you don't want a hard border or a backstop then you must come up with a workable alternative.Whether you like it or not the EU position on this is legal and responsible as far as their interests are concerned.British Politicians and the EU would love to here from you if you have any workable Ideas.

Your latest tact is to call me a coward for blaming the EU for the failure of FoM in Ireland? Firstly FoM hasn't failed I was talking about a future scenario.Two things here: 1. Pot kettle black-reread some of your earlier posts2:Its wasn't aimed at you personally but perhaps I should have put it in quotation marks

Also FoM has existed in Ireland since 1922 not 1998 and the UK has made it clear we will not introduce boarder checks. Therefore the only way a hard boarder will exist is if Ireland at the behest of the EU introduce boarder checks. If that happens and FoM ends then obviously that will be the fault of Ireland/EU as they will be responsible for their actions.

Your last sentence really shows how desperate your argument is becoming. As stated the UK has made it clear they will not introduce boarder checks (I fully support that) so how is it that the UK (and I) are not showing 'respect' to Ireland and the EU?
Thats very nice of you and the Government but it doesn't solve the problem by definition.

Finally if I want a clean break then why can't you respect my self determination to make that choice rather than making irrational outbursts about me personally?
I do respect that your opinion and anyone who has one diferent to mine but when writting on a forum its silly to get upset by someone with a different view.
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Re: " General Election "

Postby pembroke allan » Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:04 am

Its getting a joke now Scots judges ruling prolouging is unlawful because boris as ulterior motive in their view? Yet this procedure as been and is part of parliamentary workings for time immemorial! this now opens it to be challenged whenever anyone doesn't want it done in future, and politicians against brexit says done it because they cannot represent their constituents in parliament? Ffs they are happy to ignore their constituents who voted leave hypocrites the lot of them .... :evil:
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Re: " General Election "

Postby Bluebina » Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:05 am

ElyBoy1984 wrote:Rumours of a leadership challenge to Corbyn circulating. Tom Watson being touted.
Ohhhhhh Jeremy Corbyn, ohhhhh jeremy Corbyn .....



That would be bad news, Jeza is fecking hopeless and almost unelectable even Billy Bunter on a diet would do better !
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Re: " General Election "

Postby Bluebina » Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:07 am

Scottish courts (who cares, they should stick to their own business) have found the suspension of Parliament unlawful.

https://news.sky.com/story/pms-suspensi ... s-11806812
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Re: " General Election "

Postby Bluebina » Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:09 am

Bluebina wrote:Scottish courts (who cares, they should stick to their own business) have found the suspension of Parliament unlawful.

https://news.sky.com/story/pms-suspensi ... s-11806812



If they are getting dirty Boris should take the Remoaners to court instead of writing to Europe and leave with no deal while waiting for the decision!
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Re: " General Election "

Postby glas » Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:19 am

Bluebina wrote:Scottish courts (who cares, they should stick to their own business) have found the suspension of Parliament unlawful.

https://news.sky.com/story/pms-suspensi ... s-11806812


Are these the same appeal judges who just reduced the sentence of a child killer?
Out of touch and dangerous people.
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