Devolution/Welsh Assembley

Another honest question

I was only a kid in 1997 and see all these arguments since so my simple question is for those old enough to know is since devolution has there been any change in your life and if so has it been for the better or worse?

As it happens I just came across this article that answers all of your questions.
https://nation.cymru/opinion/no-our-sen ... e-bargain/

An article by Nation Cymru written by Ifan Morgan Jones is hardly likely to say anything different, and the heading itself is "opinion". We all have plenty of those, this is just one. I notice he mentions lots of facts and figures relating to expenditure in England compared to Wales. What he does not mention is that with just 1.5m people out of a population in excess of 3m working in Wales, many of whom are on low income and are eligible for state support, how will our welfare system be paid for, who will fund our NHS, Education etc. As someone said earlier, where are all these natural resources we can use for exports to raise a few bob. Opinions are fine, but a few facts as to how we would survive as an independent nation would help.

I asked him about resources etc but he body swerved the question.

Another honest question

I was only a kid in 1997 and see all these arguments since so my simple question is for those old enough to know is since devolution has there been any change in your life and if so has it been for the better or worse?

As it happens I just came across this article that answers all of your questions.
https://nation.cymru/opinion/no-our-sen ... e-bargain/

An article by Nation Cymru written by Ifan Morgan Jones is hardly likely to say anything different, and the heading itself is "opinion". We all have plenty of those, this is just one. I notice he mentions lots of facts and figures relating to expenditure in England compared to Wales. What he does not mention is that with just 1.5m people out of a population in excess of 3m working in Wales, many of whom are on low income and are eligible for state support, how will our welfare system be paid for, who will fund our NHS, Education etc. As someone said earlier, where are all these natural resources we can use for exports to raise a few bob. Opinions are fine, but a few facts as to how we would survive as an independent nation would help.

I asked him about resources etc but he body swerved the question.

Unfortunately, coal is a thing of the past Jock, and we don't have a whole lot more to export. Without reading his article again, I think it says the Welsh Government spends £18b a year to keep Wales running. We have less than 1.5m people working, many on low incomes. I'll let you do the maths on that. All very well saying it would be great to be independent and run ourselves without any input from England. Be good to see a projected income and expenditure table to see where all this money will come from.

Moonboots..

Since you refuse to answer any questions, I can only assume you want an Independent Wales, but want the English to pay.

Both cannot be.

I think King Canute had an open mind. He got wet.

Cheers for all the replies, didn't really want it to spiral into an argument or the rights and wrongs just wondering if people's lives have been made any better or worse by it that's all. I'll be honest, when it comes to politics Iv never really seen a massive difference in my life whoever is in power although locally now things seem to be getting slightly worse in terms of public services etc

Cheers for all the replies, didn't really want it to spiral into an argument or the rights and wrongs just wondering if people's lives have been made any better or worse by it that's all. I'll be honest, when it comes to politics Iv never really seen a massive difference in my life whoever is in power although locally now things seem to be getting slightly worse in terms of public services etc

Rv labour in Cardiff as totally failed the public with their politically correct ideas only need to look at city centre to see what a disaster it is, along with their hatred of car drivers in the city. Have they done anything worthwhile for the city?

Still good tho.. from the 50s to the 70s, the country went on a completely unsustainable spending spree. Now we’re paying it off.

Carwyn Jones mentioned this idea a few years ago when Brexit first appeared and now Mark Drakeford is calling for it. A couple of days ago he said of the parliamentary sovereignty model...

A note on these two. They are imbeciles of the highest order, and anyone who cites or supports them is probably not in possession of large parts of the brain.

Moonboots..

Since you refuse to answer any questions, I can only assume you want an Independent Wales, but want the English to pay.

Both cannot

I think King Canute had an open mind. He got wet.

I gave you all the information you need in my post towards the bottom of page one of this topic. I doubt you'll look into it, your mind is made up and that is fair enough. I'm not going to print all the arguments here. It would take me weeks to type it all out and you'd just say you think it's rubbish..
So what's the point in discussing anything with a person who is totally closed to the idea. If you think that Westminster will solve Wales's problems, dream on. The only people who can improve Wales are already living here.

Moonboots..

Since you refuse to answer any questions, I can only assume you want an Independent Wales, but want the English to pay.

Both cannot

I think King Canute had an open mind. He got wet.

I gave you all the information you need in my post towards the bottom of page one of this topic. I doubt you'll look into it, your mind is made up and that is fair enough. I'm not going to print all the arguments here. It would take me weeks to type it all out and you'd just say you think it's rubbish..
So what's the point in discussing anything with a person who is totally closed to the idea. If you think that Westminster will solve Wales's problems, dream on. The only people who can improve Wales are already living here.

If you don't think Westminster will solve Wales problems you think independence and wag will?

Moonboots..

Since you refuse to answer any questions, I can only assume you want an Independent Wales, but want the English to pay.

Both cannot

I think King Canute had an open mind. He got wet.

I gave you all the information you need in my post towards the bottom of page one of this topic. I doubt you'll look into it, your mind is made up and that is fair enough. I'm not going to print all the arguments here. It would take me weeks to type it all out and you'd just say you think it's rubbish..
So what's the point in discussing anything with a person who is totally closed to the idea. If you think that Westminster will solve Wales's problems, dream on. The only people who can improve Wales are already living here.

If you don't think Westminster will solve Wales problems you think independence and wag will?

Listen to the podcasts I've mentioned in an earlier post. There's lots of different people including doctors, professors and economists who put forward ideas to get the Welsh economy into a position where we can stand alone. Every country is in debt, every country borrows money. Wales needs a major overhaul in all aspects of infrastructure to kick start the economy. We have the 2nd highest tidal range on the planet. We need to unlock the potential of this to generate electricity on a huge scale, far more than Wales needs...the rest can easily be sold. Better still Wales would be well positioned to be pioneers in the tidal lagoon industry with thousands of construction jobs as well as permanent engineering jobs created as these projects would be huge. On top of that the supply line for local companies would be more than substantial. The Tory guy commissioned to look into the feasibility of The Swansea bay tidal lagoon said it was a no brainer yet the Tory goverment said NO. At the same time they spend £18billion on crossrail one and £32 billion on crossrail 2 plus tens of billions on HS2. It's the lack of investment in Wales that has directly contributed to the poor performance of the Welsh economy.
As I've said before, there is nothing inevitable about Welsh poverty. But it's only ourselves who can sort it out. We have a vested interest...Westminster don't.

Moonboots..

Since you refuse to answer any questions, I can only assume you want an Independent Wales, but want the English to pay.

Both cannot

I think King Canute had an open mind. He got wet.

I gave you all the information you need in my post towards the bottom of page one of this topic. I doubt you'll look into it, your mind is made up and that is fair enough. I'm not going to print all the arguments here. It would take me weeks to type it all out and you'd just say you think it's rubbish..
So what's the point in discussing anything with a person who is totally closed to the idea. If you think that Westminster will solve Wales's problems, dream on. The only people who can improve Wales are already living here.

If you don't think Westminster will solve Wales problems you think independence and wag will?

Listen to the podcasts I've mentioned in an earlier post. There's lots of different people including doctors, professors and economists who put forward ideas to get the Welsh economy into a position where we can stand alone. Every country is in debt, every country borrows money. Wales needs a major overhaul in all aspects of infrastructure to kick start the economy. We have the 2nd highest tidal range on the planet. We need to unlock the potential of this to generate electricity on a huge scale, far more than Wales needs...the rest can easily be sold. Better still Wales would be well positioned to be pioneers in the tidal lagoon industry with thousands of construction jobs as well as permanent engineering jobs created as these projects would be huge. On top of that the supply line for local companies would be more than substantial. The Tory guy commissioned to look into the feasibility of The Swansea bay tidal lagoon said it was a no brainer yet the Tory goverment said NO. At the same time they spend £18billion on crossrail one and £32 billion on crossrail 2 plus tens of billions on HS2. It's the lack of investment in Wales that has directly contributed to the poor performance of the Welsh economy.
As I've said before, there is nothing inevitable about Welsh poverty. But it's only ourselves who can sort it out. We have a vested interest...Westminster don't.

I agree HS2 is a vanity project and hopefully it will get cancelled. When I asked you what the resources of Wales were all you have came up with is the Severn which we “share” with England.

Moonboots..

Since you refuse to answer any questions, I can only assume you want an Independent Wales, but want the English to pay.

Both cannot

I think King Canute had an open mind. He got wet.

I gave you all the information you need in my post towards the bottom of page one of this topic. I doubt you'll look into it, your mind is made up and that is fair enough. I'm not going to print all the arguments here. It would take me weeks to type it all out and you'd just say you think it's rubbish..
So what's the point in discussing anything with a person who is totally closed to the idea. If you think that Westminster will solve Wales's problems, dream on. The only people who can improve Wales are already living here.

If you don't think Westminster will solve Wales problems you think independence and wag will?

All the arguments against here are the same old ones 'too poor, too small, too thick' These are the arguments given when Malta, Iceland, Ireland etc etc etc wanted independence. Not one of those countries have changed their minds about independence.

The problem with the Senedd is that it is a half way house. Not enough power to be effective while there is expectation. You also have a Labour government there that has no ambition and is a unionist party at the end of the day.

You've got to think outside the box here. There is obviously a lot of work to be done but we have the resources. Millions of gallons of water flow out of Wales daily. Do we get a penny for it? Yet my bill is much higher than those living in the midlands. Mocked on here before but the truth is that Wales is the fifth biggest net electricity exporter in the world, yet we don't get a penny for it. Defence? We would need a small defence force, possible some armed coastal vessels and no more. there would be no need for Trident, airforce and we would certainly not get involved in any wars. No vanity projects and none of our taxes going to fund projects in London (cross-rail, Buckingham Palace, Westminster make-ups).

I've just come back from Slovakia, and was at the Croatia match on Sunday, both countries with a smaller gdp than Wales.

I'm sure you wouldn't think that your neighbour could do a better job of looking after your house and garden than you do? It's really the same for Wales. It's all about confidence and belief, Wales can!

Moonboots..

Since you refuse to answer any questions, I can only assume you want an Independent Wales, but want the English to pay.

Both cannot

I think King Canute had an open mind. He got wet.

I gave you all the information you need in my post towards the bottom of page one of this topic. I doubt you'll look into it, your mind is made up and that is fair enough. I'm not going to print all the arguments here. It would take me weeks to type it all out and you'd just say you think it's rubbish..
So what's the point in discussing anything with a person who is totally closed to the idea. If you think that Westminster will solve Wales's problems, dream on. The only people who can improve Wales are already living here.

If you don't think Westminster will solve Wales problems you think independence and wag will?

All the arguments against here are the same old ones 'too poor, too small, too thick' These are the arguments given when Malta, Iceland, Ireland etc etc etc wanted independence. Not one of those countries have changed their minds about independence.

The problem with the Senedd is that it is a half way house. Not enough power to be effective while there is expectation. You also have a Labour government there that has no ambition and is a unionist party at the end of the day.

You've got to think outside the box here. There is obviously a lot of work to be done but we have the resources. Millions of gallons of water flow out of Wales daily. Do we get a penny for it? Yet my bill is much higher than those living in the midlands. Mocked on here before but the truth is that Wales is the fifth biggest net electricity exporter in the world, yet we don't get a penny for it. Defence? We would need a small defence force, possible some armed coastal vessels and no more. there would be no need for Trident, airforce and we would certainly not get involved in any wars. No vanity projects and none of our taxes going to fund projects in London (cross-rail, Buckingham Palace, Westminster make-ups).

I've just come back from Slovakia, and was at the Croatia match on Sunday, both countries with a smaller gdp than Wales.

I'm sure you wouldn't think that your neighbour could do a better job of looking after your house and garden than you do? It's really the same for Wales. It's all about confidence and belief, Wales can!

The retarded clowns in the SNP believe basing your economy on one commodity , oil, or the Venezuelan model as it’s known, is a solid base to build an economy. You’re even more deluded, you think the Welsh economy should be based on water exports. Would these be solely to the b*stard English or do you foresee your pals in the EU buying some too.

Moonboots..

Since you refuse to answer any questions, I can only assume you want an Independent Wales, but want the English to pay.

Both cannot

I think King Canute had an open mind. He got wet.

I gave you all the information you need in my post towards the bottom of page one of this topic. I doubt you'll look into it, your mind is made up and that is fair enough. I'm not going to print all the arguments here. It would take me weeks to type it all out and you'd just say you think it's rubbish..
So what's the point in discussing anything with a person who is totally closed to the idea. If you think that Westminster will solve Wales's problems, dream on. The only people who can improve Wales are already living here.

If you don't think Westminster will solve Wales problems you think independence and wag will?

Listen to the podcasts I've mentioned in an earlier post. There's lots of different people including doctors, professors and economists who put forward ideas to get the Welsh economy into a position where we can stand alone. Every country is in debt, every country borrows money. Wales needs a major overhaul in all aspects of infrastructure to kick start the economy. We have the 2nd highest tidal range on the planet. We need to unlock the potential of this to generate electricity on a huge scale, far more than Wales needs...the rest can easily be sold. Better still Wales would be well positioned to be pioneers in the tidal lagoon industry with thousands of construction jobs as well as permanent engineering jobs created as these projects would be huge. On top of that the supply line for local companies would be more than substantial. The Tory guy commissioned to look into the feasibility of The Swansea bay tidal lagoon said it was a no brainer yet the Tory goverment said NO. At the same time they spend £18billion on crossrail one and £32 billion on crossrail 2 plus tens of billions on HS2. It's the lack of investment in Wales that has directly contributed to the poor performance of the Welsh economy.
As I've said before, there is nothing inevitable about Welsh poverty. But it's only ourselves who can sort it out. We have a vested interest...Westminster don't.

I agree HS2 is a vanity project and hopefully it will get cancelled. When I asked you what the resources of Wales were all you have came up with is the Severn which we “share” with England.

Tidal lagoons at Swansea, Cardiff, Newport and Colwyn bay are in Welsh waters and would be owned by us.

Moonboots..

Since you refuse to answer any questions, I can only assume you want an Independent Wales, but want the English to pay.

Both cannot

I think King Canute had an open mind. He got wet.

I gave you all the information you need in my post towards the bottom of page one of this topic. I doubt you'll look into it, your mind is made up and that is fair enough. I'm not going to print all the arguments here. It would take me weeks to type it all out and you'd just say you think it's rubbish..
So what's the point in discussing anything with a person who is totally closed to the idea. If you think that Westminster will solve Wales's problems, dream on. The only people who can improve Wales are already living here.

If you don't think Westminster will solve Wales problems you think independence and wag will?

Listen to the podcasts I've mentioned in an earlier post. There's lots of different people including doctors, professors and economists who put forward ideas to get the Welsh economy into a position where we can stand alone. Every country is in debt, every country borrows money. Wales needs a major overhaul in all aspects of infrastructure to kick start the economy. We have the 2nd highest tidal range on the planet. We need to unlock the potential of this to generate electricity on a huge scale, far more than Wales needs...the rest can easily be sold. Better still Wales would be well positioned to be pioneers in the tidal lagoon industry with thousands of construction jobs as well as permanent engineering jobs created as these projects would be huge. On top of that the supply line for local companies would be more than substantial. The Tory guy commissioned to look into the feasibility of The Swansea bay tidal lagoon said it was a no brainer yet the Tory goverment said NO. At the same time they spend £18billion on crossrail one and £32 billion on crossrail 2 plus tens of billions on HS2. It's the lack of investment in Wales that has directly contributed to the poor performance of the Welsh economy.
As I've said before, there is nothing inevitable about Welsh poverty. But it's only ourselves who can sort it out. We have a vested interest...Westminster don't.

I agree HS2 is a vanity project and hopefully it will get cancelled. When I asked you what the resources of Wales were all you have came up with is the Severn which we “share” with England.

Tidal lagoons at Swansea, Cardiff, Newport and Colwyn bay are in Welsh waters and would be owned by us.

Yes great ideas but look at cost? Hiw do we pay for them all and who gets the power from them as we dont have our own company? And besides anything that makes income will be a cash cow for wag so god knows how much we will pay for electricity!! M4 relief rd is a no brainer but someone didn't think so to have major projects like lagoons you need strong finances did Swansea bay have that? And wag is extremely poor at giving money for project's without financial governance , I admire your faith in wag but seen nothing since its inception to say they can run this country ? Ffs couldn't even agree on name for assembly....

Moonboots..

Since you refuse to answer any questions, I can only assume you want an Independent Wales, but want the English to pay.

Both cannot

I think King Canute had an open mind. He got wet.

I gave you all the information you need in my post towards the bottom of page one of this topic. I doubt you'll look into it, your mind is made up and that is fair enough. I'm not going to print all the arguments here. It would take me weeks to type it all out and you'd just say you think it's rubbish..
So what's the point in discussing anything with a person who is totally closed to the idea. If you think that Westminster will solve Wales's problems, dream on. The only people who can improve Wales are already living here.

If you don't think Westminster will solve Wales problems you think independence and wag will?

Listen to the podcasts I've mentioned in an earlier post. There's lots of different people including doctors, professors and economists who put forward ideas to get the Welsh economy into a position where we can stand alone. Every country is in debt, every country borrows money. Wales needs a major overhaul in all aspects of infrastructure to kick start the economy. We have the 2nd highest tidal range on the planet. We need to unlock the potential of this to generate electricity on a huge scale, far more than Wales needs...the rest can easily be sold. Better still Wales would be well positioned to be pioneers in the tidal lagoon industry with thousands of construction jobs as well as permanent engineering jobs created as these projects would be huge. On top of that the supply line for local companies would be more than substantial. The Tory guy commissioned to look into the feasibility of The Swansea bay tidal lagoon said it was a no brainer yet the Tory goverment said NO. At the same time they spend £18billion on crossrail one and £32 billion on crossrail 2 plus tens of billions on HS2. It's the lack of investment in Wales that has directly contributed to the poor performance of the Welsh economy.
As I've said before, there is nothing inevitable about Welsh poverty. But it's only ourselves who can sort it out. We have a vested interest...Westminster don't.

I agree HS2 is a vanity project and hopefully it will get cancelled. When I asked you what the resources of Wales were all you have came up with is the Severn which we “share” with England.

Tidal lagoons at Swansea, Cardiff, Newport and Colwyn bay are in Welsh waters and would be owned by us.

Yes great ideas but look at cost? Hiw do we pay for them all and who gets the power from them as we dont have our own company? And besides anything that makes income will be a cash cow for wag so god knows how much we will pay for electricity!! M4 relief rd is a no brainer but someone didn't think so to have major projects like lagoons you need strong finances did Swansea bay have that? And wag is extremely poor at giving money for project's without financial governance , I admire your faith in wag but seen nothing since its inception to say they can run this country ? Ffs couldn't even agree on name for assembly....

We borrow for the infrastructure projects. The cost of borrowing has never been so low. Switzerland borrow billions to build tunnels through mountains for road and rail infrastructure. They can pay it back as they know that efficient infrastructure will make their economy more efficient. Look, I respect you opinions but they are just negative all the time...I suspect it's because you are happy with the way things are. Perhaps your personal position is ok and you dont have a strong desire to see things change. I believe that change is possible. Where we differ is that you have no faith in the Senedd. Personally I have no faith in Westminster. For every criticism you aim at WAG there are spades more you can aim at Westminster. WAG are trying their best with very limited resources. Westminster won't give us the resources we need. They don't believe in investing in Wales....history shows this. They invest heavily in England. We will always be poor unless we take action ourselves.

Moonboots..

Since you refuse to answer any questions, I can only assume you want an Independent Wales, but want the English to pay.

Both cannot

I think King Canute had an open mind. He got wet.

I gave you all the information you need in my post towards the bottom of page one of this topic. I doubt you'll look into it, your mind is made up and that is fair enough. I'm not going to print all the arguments here. It would take me weeks to type it all out and you'd just say you think it's rubbish..
So what's the point in discussing anything with a person who is totally closed to the idea. If you think that Westminster will solve Wales's problems, dream on. The only people who can improve Wales are already living here.

If you don't think Westminster will solve Wales problems you think independence and wag will?

Listen to the podcasts I've mentioned in an earlier post. There's lots of different people including doctors, professors and economists who put forward ideas to get the Welsh economy into a position where we can stand alone. Every country is in debt, every country borrows money. Wales needs a major overhaul in all aspects of infrastructure to kick start the economy. We have the 2nd highest tidal range on the planet. We need to unlock the potential of this to generate electricity on a huge scale, far more than Wales needs...the rest can easily be sold. Better still Wales would be well positioned to be pioneers in the tidal lagoon industry with thousands of construction jobs as well as permanent engineering jobs created as these projects would be huge. On top of that the supply line for local companies would be more than substantial. The Tory guy commissioned to look into the feasibility of The Swansea bay tidal lagoon said it was a no brainer yet the Tory goverment said NO. At the same time they spend £18billion on crossrail one and £32 billion on crossrail 2 plus tens of billions on HS2. It's the lack of investment in Wales that has directly contributed to the poor performance of the Welsh economy.
As I've said before, there is nothing inevitable about Welsh poverty. But it's only ourselves who can sort it out. We have a vested interest...Westminster don't.

I agree HS2 is a vanity project and hopefully it will get cancelled. When I asked you what the resources of Wales were all you have came up with is the Severn which we “share” with England.

Tidal lagoons at Swansea, Cardiff, Newport and Colwyn bay are in Welsh waters and would be owned by us.

Yes great ideas but look at cost? Hiw do we pay for them all and who gets the power from them as we dont have our own company? And besides anything that makes income will be a cash cow for wag so god knows how much we will pay for electricity!! M4 relief rd is a no brainer but someone didn't think so to have major projects like lagoons you need strong finances did Swansea bay have that? And wag is extremely poor at giving money for project's without financial governance , I admire your faith in wag but seen nothing since its inception to say they can run this country ? Ffs couldn't even agree on name for assembly....

We borrow for the infrastructure projects. The cost of borrowing has never been so low. Switzerland borrow billions to build tunnels through mountains for road and rail infrastructure. They can pay it back as they know that efficient infrastructure will make their economy more efficient. Look, I respect you opinions but they are just negative all the time...I suspect it's because you are happy with the way things are. Perhaps your personal position is ok and you dont have a strong desire to see things change. I believe that change is possible. Where we differ is that you have no faith in the Senedd. Personally I have no faith in Westminster. For every criticism you aim at WAG there are spades more you can aim at Westminster. WAG are trying their best with very limited resources. Westminster won't give us the resources we need. They don't believe in investing in Wales....history shows this. They invest heavily in England. We will always be poor unless we take action ourselves.

Presume you know why m4 rd was not built? Well we could borrow money on open market but AMs said cant afford it or justify it for environmental reasons? Yet they arranged another committee to look at other ways to sort out m4 misery having wasted 114m which comes back to confidence in wag and financial matters no faith whatsoever.. wont argue about Westminster blah blah as your probably right, but I'm more a realist and dont see a way Wales can stand alone financially same as Scots. But I wouldn't vote independence if came to it in fact if had vote over wag it would be no aswell

Moonboots..

Since you refuse to answer any questions, I can only assume you want an Independent Wales, but want the English to pay.

Both cannot

I think King Canute had an open mind. He got wet.

I gave you all the information you need in my post towards the bottom of page one of this topic. I doubt you'll look into it, your mind is made up and that is fair enough. I'm not going to print all the arguments here. It would take me weeks to type it all out and you'd just say you think it's rubbish..
So what's the point in discussing anything with a person who is totally closed to the idea. If you think that Westminster will solve Wales's problems, dream on. The only people who can improve Wales are already living here.

If you don't think Westminster will solve Wales problems you think independence and wag will?

Listen to the podcasts I've mentioned in an earlier post. There's lots of different people including doctors, professors and economists who put forward ideas to get the Welsh economy into a position where we can stand alone. Every country is in debt, every country borrows money. Wales needs a major overhaul in all aspects of infrastructure to kick start the economy. We have the 2nd highest tidal range on the planet. We need to unlock the potential of this to generate electricity on a huge scale, far more than Wales needs...the rest can easily be sold. Better still Wales would be well positioned to be pioneers in the tidal lagoon industry with thousands of construction jobs as well as permanent engineering jobs created as these projects would be huge. On top of that the supply line for local companies would be more than substantial. The Tory guy commissioned to look into the feasibility of The Swansea bay tidal lagoon said it was a no brainer yet the Tory goverment said NO. At the same time they spend £18billion on crossrail one and £32 billion on crossrail 2 plus tens of billions on HS2. It's the lack of investment in Wales that has directly contributed to the poor performance of the Welsh economy.
As I've said before, there is nothing inevitable about Welsh poverty. But it's only ourselves who can sort it out. We have a vested interest...Westminster don't.

I agree HS2 is a vanity project and hopefully it will get cancelled. When I asked you what the resources of Wales were all you have came up with is the Severn which we “share” with England.

Tidal lagoons at Swansea, Cardiff, Newport and Colwyn bay are in Welsh waters and would be owned by us.

Yes great ideas but look at cost? Hiw do we pay for them all and who gets the power from them as we dont have our own company? And besides anything that makes income will be a cash cow for wag so god knows how much we will pay for electricity!! M4 relief rd is a no brainer but someone didn't think so to have major projects like lagoons you need strong finances did Swansea bay have that? And wag is extremely poor at giving money for project's without financial governance , I admire your faith in wag but seen nothing since its inception to say they can run this country ? Ffs couldn't even agree on name for assembly....

We borrow for the infrastructure projects. The cost of borrowing has never been so low. Switzerland borrow billions to build tunnels through mountains for road and rail infrastructure. They can pay it back as they know that efficient infrastructure will make their economy more efficient. Look, I respect you opinions but they are just negative all the time...I suspect it's because you are happy with the way things are. Perhaps your personal position is ok and you dont have a strong desire to see things change. I believe that change is possible. Where we differ is that you have no faith in the Senedd. Personally I have no faith in Westminster. For every criticism you aim at WAG there are spades more you can aim at Westminster. WAG are trying their best with very limited resources. Westminster won't give us the resources we need. They don't believe in investing in Wales....history shows this. They invest heavily in England. We will always be poor unless we take action ourselves.

Presume you know why m4 rd was not built? Well we could borrow money on open market but AMs said cant afford it or justify it for environmental reasons? Yet they arranged another committee to look at other ways to sort out m4 misery having wasted 114m which comes back to confidence in wag and financial matters no faith whatsoever.. wont argue about Westminster blah blah as your probably right, but I'm more a realist and dont see a way Wales can stand alone financially same as Scots. But I wouldn't vote independence if came to it in fact if had vote over wag it would be no aswell

Not sure why Switzerland is often used as an example. They have almost three times the population of Wales, and their number of unemployed is just 20k more than us. As I have said in other posts, not only do we have less than 1.5m in work in Wales paying their taxes, many of those are in low paid jobs and are entitled to various top up benefits. We also have an aging population taking money out of the system. Switzerland are one of the World's richer countries and their GDP figures are the third highest in the World. Interestingly, they are the only country in that region who are not in the EU.

Moonboots..

Since you refuse to answer any questions, I can only assume you want an Independent Wales, but want the English to pay.

Both cannot

I think King Canute had an open mind. He got wet.

I gave you all the information you need in my post towards the bottom of page one of this topic. I doubt you'll look into it, your mind is made up and that is fair enough. I'm not going to print all the arguments here. It would take me weeks to type it all out and you'd just say you think it's rubbish..
So what's the point in discussing anything with a person who is totally closed to the idea. If you think that Westminster will solve Wales's problems, dream on. The only people who can improve Wales are already living here.

If you don't think Westminster will solve Wales problems you think independence and wag will?

All the arguments against here are the same old ones 'too poor, too small, too thick' These are the arguments given when Malta, Iceland, Ireland etc etc etc wanted independence. Not one of those countries have changed their minds about independence.

The problem with the Senedd is that it is a half way house. Not enough power to be effective while there is expectation. You also have a Labour government there that has no ambition and is a unionist party at the end of the day.

You've got to think outside the box here. There is obviously a lot of work to be done but we have the resources. Millions of gallons of water flow out of Wales daily. Do we get a penny for it? Yet my bill is much higher than those living in the midlands. Mocked on here before but the truth is that Wales is the fifth biggest net electricity exporter in the world, yet we don't get a penny for it. Defence? We would need a small defence force, possible some armed coastal vessels and no more. there would be no need for Trident, airforce and we would certainly not get involved in any wars. No vanity projects and none of our taxes going to fund projects in London (cross-rail, Buckingham Palace, Westminster make-ups).

I've just come back from Slovakia, and was at the Croatia match on Sunday, both countries with a smaller gdp than Wales.

I'm sure you wouldn't think that your neighbour could do a better job of looking after your house and garden than you do? It's really the same for Wales. It's all about confidence and belief, Wales can!

The retarded clowns in the SNP believe basing your economy on one commodity , oil, or the Venezuelan model as it’s known, is a solid base to build an economy. You’re even more deluded, you think the Welsh economy should be based on water exports. Would these be solely to the b*stard English or do you foresee your pals in the EU buying some too.

So, if we're too poor to be independent and don't have the resources, please tell me what runs the economy of Malta, Iceland or even Fiji? It's not about resources alone, look at Ireland and how they've attracted companies from all over the world all you need is the desire, the ambition and the freedom to do what's best for your country. I personally don't believe Westminster knows what's best for Wales.

Moonboots..

Since you refuse to answer any questions, I can only assume you want an Independent Wales, but want the English to pay.

Both cannot

I think King Canute had an open mind. He got wet.

I gave you all the information you need in my post towards the bottom of page one of this topic. I doubt you'll look into it, your mind is made up and that is fair enough. I'm not going to print all the arguments here. It would take me weeks to type it all out and you'd just say you think it's rubbish..
So what's the point in discussing anything with a person who is totally closed to the idea. If you think that Westminster will solve Wales's problems, dream on. The only people who can improve Wales are already living here.

If you don't think Westminster will solve Wales problems you think independence and wag will?

All the arguments against here are the same old ones 'too poor, too small, too thick' These are the arguments given when Malta, Iceland, Ireland etc etc etc wanted independence. Not one of those countries have changed their minds about independence.

The problem with the Senedd is that it is a half way house. Not enough power to be effective while there is expectation. You also have a Labour government there that has no ambition and is a unionist party at the end of the day.

You've got to think outside the box here. There is obviously a lot of work to be done but we have the resources. Millions of gallons of water flow out of Wales daily. Do we get a penny for it? Yet my bill is much higher than those living in the midlands. Mocked on here before but the truth is that Wales is the fifth biggest net electricity exporter in the world, yet we don't get a penny for it. Defence? We would need a small defence force, possible some armed coastal vessels and no more. there would be no need for Trident, airforce and we would certainly not get involved in any wars. No vanity projects and none of our taxes going to fund projects in London (cross-rail, Buckingham Palace, Westminster make-ups).

I've just come back from Slovakia, and was at the Croatia match on Sunday, both countries with a smaller gdp than Wales.

I'm sure you wouldn't think that your neighbour could do a better job of looking after your house and garden than you do? It's really the same for Wales. It's all about confidence and belief, Wales can!

The retarded clowns in the SNP believe basing your economy on one commodity , oil, or the Venezuelan model as it’s known, is a solid base to build an economy. You’re even more deluded, you think the Welsh economy should be based on water exports. Would these be solely to the b*stard English or do you foresee your pals in the EU buying some too.

So, if we're too poor to be independent and don't have the resources, please tell me what runs the economy of Malta, Iceland or even Fiji? It's not about resources alone, look at Ireland and how they've attracted companies from all over the world all you need is the desire, the ambition and the freedom to do what's best for your country. I personally don't believe Westminster knows what's best for Wales.

Malta I’d guess, runs on tourism
Iceland on fishing
Fiji....I’ve absolutely no idea.
Ireland has attracted DFI because their corporation tax was low (assuming you wish an independent Wales to be part of the EU) moves are afoot to standardise tax rates throughout the block, so this is going to become increasingly difficult for smaller EU countries.
Two things astonish me in all of this. Why do you think Welsh Politicians would be more honest than people from other parts of the U.K. and if an independent Wales was successful why do you think successful Welsh people would be more inclined to redistribute wealth more evenly to their country men?

Moonboots..

Since you refuse to answer any questions, I can only assume you want an Independent Wales, but want the English to pay.

Both cannot

I think King Canute had an open mind. He got wet.

I gave you all the information you need in my post towards the bottom of page one of this topic. I doubt you'll look into it, your mind is made up and that is fair enough. I'm not going to print all the arguments here. It would take me weeks to type it all out and you'd just say you think it's rubbish..
So what's the point in discussing anything with a person who is totally closed to the idea. If you think that Westminster will solve Wales's problems, dream on. The only people who can improve Wales are already living here.

If you don't think Westminster will solve Wales problems you think independence and wag will?

Listen to the podcasts I've mentioned in an earlier post. There's lots of different people including doctors, professors and economists who put forward ideas to get the Welsh economy into a position where we can stand alone. Every country is in debt, every country borrows money. Wales needs a major overhaul in all aspects of infrastructure to kick start the economy. We have the 2nd highest tidal range on the planet. We need to unlock the potential of this to generate electricity on a huge scale, far more than Wales needs...the rest can easily be sold. Better still Wales would be well positioned to be pioneers in the tidal lagoon industry with thousands of construction jobs as well as permanent engineering jobs created as these projects would be huge. On top of that the supply line for local companies would be more than substantial. The Tory guy commissioned to look into the feasibility of The Swansea bay tidal lagoon said it was a no brainer yet the Tory goverment said NO. At the same time they spend £18billion on crossrail one and £32 billion on crossrail 2 plus tens of billions on HS2. It's the lack of investment in Wales that has directly contributed to the poor performance of the Welsh economy.
As I've said before, there is nothing inevitable about Welsh poverty. But it's only ourselves who can sort it out. We have a vested interest...Westminster don't.

I agree HS2 is a vanity project and hopefully it will get cancelled. When I asked you what the resources of Wales were all you have came up with is the Severn which we “share” with England.

Tidal lagoons at Swansea, Cardiff, Newport and Colwyn bay are in Welsh waters and would be owned by us.

Yes great ideas but look at cost? Hiw do we pay for them all and who gets the power from them as we dont have our own company? And besides anything that makes income will be a cash cow for wag so god knows how much we will pay for electricity!! M4 relief rd is a no brainer but someone didn't think so to have major projects like lagoons you need strong finances did Swansea bay have that? And wag is extremely poor at giving money for project's without financial governance , I admire your faith in wag but seen nothing since its inception to say they can run this country ? Ffs couldn't even agree on name for assembly....

We borrow for the infrastructure projects. The cost of borrowing has never been so low. Switzerland borrow billions to build tunnels through mountains for road and rail infrastructure. They can pay it back as they know that efficient infrastructure will make their economy more efficient. Look, I respect you opinions but they are just negative all the time...I suspect it's because you are happy with the way things are. Perhaps your personal position is ok and you dont have a strong desire to see things change. I believe that change is possible. Where we differ is that you have no faith in the Senedd. Personally I have no faith in Westminster. For every criticism you aim at WAG there are spades more you can aim at Westminster. WAG are trying their best with very limited resources. Westminster won't give us the resources we need. They don't believe in investing in Wales....history shows this. They invest heavily in England. We will always be poor unless we take action ourselves.

Presume you know why m4 rd was not built? Well we could borrow money on open market but AMs said cant afford it or justify it for environmental reasons? Yet they arranged another committee to look at other ways to sort out m4 misery having wasted 114m which comes back to confidence in wag and financial matters no faith whatsoever.. wont argue about Westminster blah blah as your probably right, but I'm more a realist and dont see a way Wales can stand alone financially same as Scots. But I wouldn't vote independence if came to it in fact if had vote over wag it would be no aswell

You seem like a decent guy as you are respectful in your replies. But we're not going to agree...that much is plain to see. Your reluctance to consider independence seems to be largely based upon your lack of faith in the people who run the WAG. Don't forget, those can be changed. It's up to the people of Wales to change them. I personally don't think they are bad as you make them out. The M4 relief road has been a cock up but it should have been built many years ago and funded by the UK Government as part of a national infrastructure plan. I actually agree with the cancellation of the project now as it would be a scandalous waste of money to spend £1.4 billion on about 12 miles of motorway. There has to be a better solution and a more cost effective way of solving the problem and without huge damage to the environment.
My position on independence is based upon trust. Trust in the skills and work ethic of the people who live in Wales, wherever they originate from. We are no better or worse than anyone else, but the one thing we have that is greater than anyone else is that we care about Wales more than anyone else. That gives us more motivation to do well for Wales when planning our future than anyone else would have. To give an analogy, you care about your house and the people who live in it (your family) more than the man next door. Who is best placed to make decisions about your house and your family...you or the man next door? Clearly it's YOU, because you care more and see more clearly the issues that affect your property and your family than your neighbour. It would be odd, would it not, to hand sovereignty of your house and family to anyone else? I see the same principles with nations. And as regards the bullshit about Wales being too small and too poor to be independent you only have to look at Ireland. It used to be poorer than Wales. No natural resources over and above what Wales has, yet since independence Ireland's economy is many times stronger than Wales's. Because they have made decisions about themselves which have greatly benefited themselves.
Anyway that really is my last word. I've spent far too much time on what I knew would be a lost cause with the rule Britannia brigade on here (not necessarily you Allan).
At least we can agree that we want the City to be successful

Moonboots..

Since you refuse to answer any questions, I can only assume you want an Independent Wales, but want the English to pay.

Both cannot

I think King Canute had an open mind. He got wet.

I gave you all the information you need in my post towards the bottom of page one of this topic. I doubt you'll look into it, your mind is made up and that is fair enough. I'm not going to print all the arguments here. It would take me weeks to type it all out and you'd just say you think it's rubbish..
So what's the point in discussing anything with a person who is totally closed to the idea. If you think that Westminster will solve Wales's problems, dream on. The only people who can improve Wales are already living here.

If you don't think Westminster will solve Wales problems you think independence and wag will?

Listen to the podcasts I've mentioned in an earlier post. There's lots of different people including doctors, professors and economists who put forward ideas to get the Welsh economy into a position where we can stand alone. Every country is in debt, every country borrows money. Wales needs a major overhaul in all aspects of infrastructure to kick start the economy. We have the 2nd highest tidal range on the planet. We need to unlock the potential of this to generate electricity on a huge scale, far more than Wales needs...the rest can easily be sold. Better still Wales would be well positioned to be pioneers in the tidal lagoon industry with thousands of construction jobs as well as permanent engineering jobs created as these projects would be huge. On top of that the supply line for local companies would be more than substantial. The Tory guy commissioned to look into the feasibility of The Swansea bay tidal lagoon said it was a no brainer yet the Tory goverment said NO. At the same time they spend £18billion on crossrail one and £32 billion on crossrail 2 plus tens of billions on HS2. It's the lack of investment in Wales that has directly contributed to the poor performance of the Welsh economy.
As I've said before, there is nothing inevitable about Welsh poverty. But it's only ourselves who can sort it out. We have a vested interest...Westminster don't.

I agree HS2 is a vanity project and hopefully it will get cancelled. When I asked you what the resources of Wales were all you have came up with is the Severn which we “share” with England.

Tidal lagoons at Swansea, Cardiff, Newport and Colwyn bay are in Welsh waters and would be owned by us.

Yes great ideas but look at cost? Hiw do we pay for them all and who gets the power from them as we dont have our own company? And besides anything that makes income will be a cash cow for wag so god knows how much we will pay for electricity!! M4 relief rd is a no brainer but someone didn't think so to have major projects like lagoons you need strong finances did Swansea bay have that? And wag is extremely poor at giving money for project's without financial governance , I admire your faith in wag but seen nothing since its inception to say they can run this country ? Ffs couldn't even agree on name for assembly....

We borrow for the infrastructure projects. The cost of borrowing has never been so low. Switzerland borrow billions to build tunnels through mountains for road and rail infrastructure. They can pay it back as they know that efficient infrastructure will make their economy more efficient. Look, I respect you opinions but they are just negative all the time...I suspect it's because you are happy with the way things are. Perhaps your personal position is ok and you dont have a strong desire to see things change. I believe that change is possible. Where we differ is that you have no faith in the Senedd. Personally I have no faith in Westminster. For every criticism you aim at WAG there are spades more you can aim at Westminster. WAG are trying their best with very limited resources. Westminster won't give us the resources we need. They don't believe in investing in Wales....history shows this. They invest heavily in England. We will always be poor unless we take action ourselves.

Presume you know why m4 rd was not built? Well we could borrow money on open market but AMs said cant afford it or justify it for environmental reasons? Yet they arranged another committee to look at other ways to sort out m4 misery having wasted 114m which comes back to confidence in wag and financial matters no faith whatsoever.. wont argue about Westminster blah blah as your probably right, but I'm more a realist and dont see a way Wales can stand alone financially same as Scots. But I wouldn't vote independence if came to it in fact if had vote over wag it would be no aswell

You seem like a decent guy as you are respectful in your replies. But we're not going to agree...that much is plain to see. Your reluctance to consider independence seems to be largely based upon your lack of faith in the people who run the WAG. Don't forget, those can be changed. It's up to the people of Wales to change them. I personally don't think they are bad as you make them out. The M4 relief road has been a cock up but it should have been built many years ago and funded by the UK Government as part of a national infrastructure plan. I actually agree with the cancellation of the project now as it would be a scandalous waste of money to spend £1.4 billion on about 12 miles of motorway. There has to be a better solution and a more cost effective way of solving the problem and without huge damage to the environment.
My position on independence is based upon trust. Trust in the skills and work ethic of the people who live in Wales, wherever they originate from. We are no better or worse than anyone else, but the one thing we have that is greater than anyone else is that we care about Wales more than anyone else. That gives us more motivation to do well for Wales when planning our future than anyone else would have. To give an analogy, you care about your house and the people who live in it (your family) more than the man next door. Who is best placed to make decisions about your house and your family...you or the man next door? Clearly it's YOU, because you care more and see more clearly the issues that affect your property and your family than your neighbour. It would be odd, would it not, to hand sovereignty of your house and family to anyone else? I see the same principles with nations. And as regards the bullshit about Wales being too small and too poor to be independent you only have to look at Ireland. It used to be poorer than Wales. No natural resources over and above what Wales has, yet since independence Ireland's economy is many times stronger than Wales's. Because they have made decisions about themselves which have greatly benefited themselves.
Anyway that really is my last word. I've spent far too much time on what I knew would be a lost cause with the rule Britannia brigade on here (not necessarily you Allan).
At least we can agree that we want the City to be successful

Yes agree about city no about independence! my concern is based on wag running Wales and fact we don't have nessasary income streams to be independent much as I would like it to be true just dont see it. And yes to much time on subject time to move to pastures new.....

Kinda torn on this topic.

A big believer in small devolved government - so, in theory, the WAG sits well with me but it is a seed of a good idea woefully implemented. It is not working, that much is obvious.

As for an independent Wales...

Ultimately, as it is it is a pipe dream. As has been raised we have way too much unemployment and too little income to survive outside of the UK. That doesn't mean it cannot be turned around and thrive, but to do so would require a very hardline capitalist approach to economics and a huge reduction of social welfare if it to work - and as far as I can see the people pushing independent Wales also paradoxically are pro-socialist.

Successful independent Wales could happen but it would not be based on natural resources, and neither should it. The country is small enough to establish a meritocratic mentally that could drive production per person across a nation to make us a global powerhouse but it is not going to happen given the preference of social equanimity that is pervasive amongst those who are pushing for independence.

Malta and Ireland are hugely dependent on the EU - switching Westminister for Brussels are alike for like swap.

Iceland is essentially a City Nation with a tenth of the population of Wales. Easy to make a success and they still fucked it up with Banking and are set to do the same again after persuing crazy equality regulations that is stifling their innovation.

I agree with Moonboots on Wales having an untapped potential but would think we have wildly different ideas of how that could be unleashed. But it's OK to disagree

The UK will always be unbalanced. England has something like more than 5 times the population of Wales, Scotland and N. Ireland combined.

Kinda torn on this topic.

A big believer in small devolved government - so, in theory, the WAG sits well with me but it is a seed of a good idea woefully implemented. It is not working, that much is obvious.

As for an independent Wales...

Ultimately, as it is it is a pipe dream. As has been raised we have way too much unemployment and too little income to survive outside of the UK. That doesn't mean it cannot be turned around and thrive, but to do so would require a very hardline capitalist approach to economics and a huge reduction of social welfare if it to work - and as far as I can see the people pushing independent Wales also paradoxically are pro-socialist.

Successful independent Wales could happen but it would not be based on natural resources, and neither should it. The country is small enough to establish a meritocratic mentally that could drive production per person across a nation to make us a global powerhouse but it is not going to happen given the preference of social equanimity that is pervasive amongst those who are pushing for independence.

Malta and Ireland are hugely dependent on the EU - switching Westminister for Brussels are alike for like swap.

Iceland is essentially a City Nation with a tenth of the population of Wales. Easy to make a success and they still fucked it up with Banking and are set to do the same again after persuing crazy equality regulations that is stifling their innovation.

I agree with Moonboots on Wales having an untapped potential but would think we have wildly different ideas of how that could be unleashed. But it's OK to disagree

The UK will always be unbalanced. England has something like more than 5 times the population of Wales, Scotland and N. Ireland combined.

Most people are open to being independent of Westminster but most are realists and can see why it wont or cant happen? As for Scotland independence I say give them it but say will stop financial aid after 1yr then see if they'll vote independence? If yes no problem let them get in with it