We scientists said lock down. But UK politicians refused to

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We scientists said lock down. But UK politicians refused to

Postby Forever Blue » Thu May 21, 2020 3:58 pm

We scientists said lock down. But UK politicians refused to listen.


By Helen Ward


The Guardian
For 11 fateful days in March, the government ignored the best coronavirus advice. It must learn from that mistake

Helen Ward is professor of public health at Imperial College London
Coronavirus –


Boris Johnson arrives at a news conference on 12 March.

In mid-February a colleague mentioned that for the first time in his life he was more concerned than his mother, who had been relatively blase about the risks of Covid-19. It felt odd for him to be telling her to take care. We are both professors in a department of infectious disease epidemiology, and we were worried.

Two months on, that anxiety has not gone, although it’s also been joined by a sense of sadness. It’s now clear that so many people have died, and so many more are desperately ill, simply because our politicians refused to listen to and act on advice. Scientists like us said lock down earlier; we said test, trace, isolate. But they decided they knew better.

Am I being unfair? The government assures us that its decisions and timing are based on science, as if it is a neutral, value-free process resulting in a specific set of instructions. In reality, the science around coronavirus is in its infancy and developing daily, with researchers across the world trying to understand how the virus spreads, how the body responds – and how to treat it and control it. The speed at which our knowledge has increased is impressive, from the sequencing of the virus in January through to having candidate vaccines in early February.



Mathematical models are being refined to predict the extent and speed of spread and estimate the impact of control methods. My own group is studying the response of communities, showing how the epidemic is amplifying existing social inequalities. People with the lowest household income are far less likely, but no less willing, to be able to work from home or to self-isolate.



But while scientists carry out observations and experiments, testing, iterating and discovering new knowledge, it is the role of policymakers to act on the best available evidence. In the context of a rapidly growing threat, that means listening to experts with experience of responding to previous epidemics.

When I say that politicians “refused to listen”, I am referring to the advice and recommendations coming from the World Health Organization, from China and from Italy. The WHO advice, based on decades of experience and widely accepted by public health leaders and scientists around the world was clear – use every possible tool to suppress transmission. That meant testing and isolating cases, tracing and quarantining contacts, and ramping up hygiene efforts.

The UK did well in the early phase, but then, on 12 March, the government alarmed many public health experts by abruptly abandoning containment and announcing that community case-finding and contact-tracing would stop. The aim was no longer to stop people getting it, but to slow it down while protecting the vulnerable.

The evidence underpinning the government’s decision appears in a report from 9 March summarising the potential impact of behavioural and social interventions. The report did not consider the impact of case-finding and contact-tracing, but it did suggest that the biggest impact on cases and deaths would come from social distancing and the protection of vulnerable groups.
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We scientists said lock down. But UK politicians refused to

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Re: We scientists said lock down. But UK politicians refused

Postby TopCat CCFC » Fri May 22, 2020 10:26 pm

Let's be fair - it's a free for all over here !!! People being paid while off work and in England - Do as you like .
Mixed Messages - Stay Home / Stay Safe - False Figures in Reports - Rule Breakers - Nations Not United ....
And Tonight we have this - Talking of advice ......

Dominic Cummings spoken to by police after breaching lockdown rules

Dominic Cummings, the Prime Minister's chief adviser, was spoken to by police after breaching lockdown rules by travelling from London to Durham to self-isolate at his parents' house.

Downing Street claimed at the time that Mr Cummings was "at home" in isolation after developing coronavirus symptoms, when in fact he was more than 260 miles away.

Labour said No 10 needed to provide a "very swift explanation" for Mr Cummings' actions.

"If accurate, the prime minister's chief adviser appears to have breached the lockdown rules. The government's guidance was very clear: stay at home and no non-essential travel," a spokesman said.

"The British people do not expect there to be one rule for them and another rule for Dominic Cummings."
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Re: We scientists said lock down. But UK politicians refused

Postby pembroke allan » Fri May 22, 2020 10:30 pm

Experts now saying lockdown should end now! Takes your money makes your choice...scientific arguments for all sides of equations :old:
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Re: We scientists said lock down. But UK politicians refused

Postby thomasblue » Fri May 22, 2020 11:25 pm

The fact still remains none of these so called experts have been through this before so none of them knew the best way to deal with it.
We still dont know and it will only become apparent in a year or so when everything settles and true figures are known.
For all we know even though it looks wrong , our government may have been right with this approach. We may well have a society with a high number of people with immunity meaning we can carry on with life later without further lockdowns. Other countries may have to have further lockdowns because they have no immunity due to full lockdown approach

There are still a lot of questions to be answered
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Re: We scientists said lock down. But UK politicians refused

Postby pembroke allan » Sat May 23, 2020 12:24 am

thomasblue wrote:The fact still remains none of these so called experts have been through this before so none of them knew the best way to deal with it.
We still dont know and it will only become apparent in a year or so when everything settles and true figures are known.
For all we know even though it looks wrong , our government may have been right with this approach. We may well have a society with a high number of people with immunity meaning we can carry on with life later without further lockdowns. Other countries may have to have further lockdowns because they have no immunity due to full lockdown approach

There are still a lot of questions to be answered



What is becoming clear is lots people are to scared to get back to some sort of normality? Kids want go back school parents saying no! Workers saying it's not safe because of insistent on 2mtrs gap when WHO say it can be 1.5mtr or less....... chaos is going to ensue before to long as financial situation makes it imperative that people need to go back to work but officials will be insisting on 2mtrs distancing so empty trains and busses with people standing at stops waiting to go to work unable to do so..
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Re: We scientists said lock down. But UK politicians refused

Postby skidemin » Sat May 23, 2020 12:33 am

thing is Helen ..we the scientists ...Ward was part of the team led by Neil Furguson who produced the covid 19 model described as


the most devastating and expensive mistake of all time in this link

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/ ... e-mistake/

and ...a mess that would get you fired in private industry in this link..

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... perts.html.

besides Germany and Sweden both had the same advice
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Re: We scientists said lock down. But UK politicians refused

Postby Nuclearblue » Sat May 23, 2020 12:52 am

THIS IS FROM A DOCTOR WORKING IN BROADGREEN HOSPITAL:
"To all the people on here threatening to unfriend people, or wishing a second wave of COVID on people, for daring to go out in the sun yesterday, you really need to think about what you are writing, and a lot of you are health professionals as well.
What was the aim of lock down? What did every single health "expert" say was the reason to justify a lockdown? And why do we have a Flu season at all? And why have we continued to have a steady incidence rate despite being in lockdown? And why are thousands of elderly people dying in nursing homes?
The reason we had lockdown was to "flatten the curve" or buy time to increase ITU/crit care beds. Well with 4 nightingale hospitals mothballed and 50% of hospital beds lying empty, I think we have achieved that.
Not one "expert" worth his salt will tell you that we can stop a respiratory virus, and if they did they would be lying or I am deluded and we have no common cold or Flu cases every winter. So with a fifth of the country likely to have already had the virus and a health service with a massive amount of level 2 and level 3 beds, we are more than ready for a second spike, as it stands. Remember we cannot lock down forever and we need to come out, which brings me on to the Flu season.
Why do we have a flu season? The main reason we have a Flu season is because as it gets cooler people coop up and spend more time in close proximity, the population becomes denser and therefor it's easier for a virus to travel, also people tend to eat less fruit and veg and see less sunlight and our natural defences are slightly depleted, sound familiar?
The longer we stay locked down, the closer we will be to the next Flu season, so essentially you will be hitting a second spike as people begin to mix, late summer early Autumn which will be just as the next Flu seasons hits, so a second spike will lead nicely into a third and if you want to overwhelm the NHS then this is the exact way to do it.
Lastly why are so many elderly people dying of COVID, well it's largely down to the paranoia that people are displaying on platforms like facebook. GP's are not assessing elderly patients face to face, they are not being taken to hospital or they are terrified to go to hospital incase they get COVID, so they stay at home until it's too late.
Strokes are down up to 70%, where have these patient gone? MI's down 50%, Hospital attendances down 90%, where are all the falls?? But why do they all have COVID signs?
Well anyone who has worked with elderly patients, and I suspect lots of you have, will know there are multiple reasons an elderly person can develop a pneumonia (COVID symptoms). They might fall and be in pain therefore not fully expand their lungs and develop atelectasis and then pneumonia.
They may have reduced mobility, due to quarantine, and become constipated and this may push up on the diaphragm and cause atelectasis or cause them to vomit and aspirate leading to pneumonia.They may develop urinary retention and UTI, secondary to constipation, and become bed bound, causing more time in a prone position and develop a basal collapse of the lungs and again atelectasis and pneumonia. The fact that they have reduced mobility may even mean they spend more time in bed or just sitting, which again is enough to cause chest infection/pneumonia.
Strokes may not present (they aren't) and develop swallow issues and aspirate leading to pneumonia, MIs may present late and develop pulmonary oedema with a secondary infection again leading to pneumonia, and many may have a cold or a Flu (which is down 95%) and go on to develop a pneumonia.
All of the above reasons would cause a patient to have COVID symptoms and will kill elderly patients if not treated, and all of them are enough to be classed as a COVID death currently. And this is why so many nursing homes are being decimated, it's as much through fear as it is through COVID.
Before you campaign and sign petitions to lock yourselves and your family away, remember also that lock down has consequences.
The first 2 reasons are clear above, the elderly will become frail, not be treated and die in their thousands, and thousands of people will not attend A&E at all, or until it's too late and again will die. This is before you factor in the 60 thousand cancer patients that will lose their lives because of missed screening or delayed operations. And then there is the burden on mental health services and the deaths caused by domestic abuse or suicide. And that's before the biggest killer by far which will be austerity.
We are heading for the biggest recession in 300 years, the last one has cost an estimated 500000 lives, why will this one be any different? And even with the lock down measures prolonged, will we have saved any lives any way, as our frail residents face a second and third spike in quick succession.
I understand that you my be scared and its overwhelming being constantly bombarded with negativity and fear, but before you completely isolate yourselves and fall out with loved ones and friends, ask yourself is lockdown still working, and what are the potential benefits of staying locked down versus, carrying on with some semblance of a normal life?"
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Re: We scientists said lock down. But UK politicians refused

Postby EastleighBlue » Sat May 23, 2020 7:50 am

Nuclearblue wrote:THIS IS FROM A DOCTOR WORKING IN BROADGREEN HOSPITAL:
"To all the people on here threatening to unfriend people, or wishing a second wave of COVID on people, for daring to go out in the sun yesterday, you really need to think about what you are writing, and a lot of you are health professionals as well.
What was the aim of lock down? What did every single health "expert" say was the reason to justify a lockdown? And why do we have a Flu season at all? And why have we continued to have a steady incidence rate despite being in lockdown? And why are thousands of elderly people dying in nursing homes?
The reason we had lockdown was to "flatten the curve" or buy time to increase ITU/crit care beds. Well with 4 nightingale hospitals mothballed and 50% of hospital beds lying empty, I think we have achieved that.
Not one "expert" worth his salt will tell you that we can stop a respiratory virus, and if they did they would be lying or I am deluded and we have no common cold or Flu cases every winter. So with a fifth of the country likely to have already had the virus and a health service with a massive amount of level 2 and level 3 beds, we are more than ready for a second spike, as it stands. Remember we cannot lock down forever and we need to come out, which brings me on to the Flu season.
Why do we have a flu season? The main reason we have a Flu season is because as it gets cooler people coop up and spend more time in close proximity, the population becomes denser and therefor it's easier for a virus to travel, also people tend to eat less fruit and veg and see less sunlight and our natural defences are slightly depleted, sound familiar?


The longer we stay locked down, the closer we will be to the next Flu season, so essentially you will be hitting a second spike as people begin to mix, late summer early Autumn which will be just as the next Flu seasons hits, so a second spike will lead nicely into a third and if you want to overwhelm the NHS then this is the exact way to do it.
Lastly why are so many elderly people dying of COVID, well it's largely down to the paranoia that people are displaying on platforms like facebook. GP's are not assessing elderly patients face to face, they are not being taken to hospital or they are terrified to go to hospital incase they get COVID, so they stay at home until it's too late.
Strokes are down up to 70%, where have these patient gone? MI's down 50%, Hospital attendances down 90%, where are all the falls?? But why do they all have COVID signs?
Well anyone who has worked with elderly patients, and I suspect lots of you have, will know there are multiple reasons an elderly person can develop a pneumonia (COVID symptoms). They might fall and be in pain therefore not fully expand their lungs and develop atelectasis and then pneumonia.
They may have reduced mobility, due to quarantine, and become constipated and this may push up on the diaphragm and cause atelectasis or cause them to vomit and aspirate leading to pneumonia.They may develop urinary retention and UTI, secondary to constipation, and become bed bound, causing more time in a prone position and develop a basal collapse of the lungs and again atelectasis and pneumonia. The fact that they have reduced mobility may even mean they spend more time in bed or just sitting, which again is enough to cause chest infection/pneumonia.
Strokes may not present (they aren't) and develop swallow issues and aspirate leading to pneumonia, MIs may present late and develop pulmonary oedema with a secondary infection again leading to pneumonia, and many may have a cold or a Flu (which is down 95%) and go on to develop a pneumonia.
All of the above reasons would cause a patient to have COVID symptoms and will kill elderly patients if not treated, and all of them are enough to be classed as a COVID death currently. And this is why so many nursing homes are being decimated, it's as much through fear as it is through COVID.
Before you campaign and sign petitions to lock yourselves and your family away, remember also that lock down has consequences.
The first 2 reasons are clear above, the elderly will become frail, not be treated and die in their thousands, and thousands of people will not attend A&E at all, or until it's too late and again will die. This is before you factor in the 60 thousand cancer patients that will lose their lives because of missed screening or delayed operations. And then there is the burden on mental health services and the deaths caused by domestic abuse or suicide. And that's before the biggest killer by far which will be austerity.
We are heading for the biggest recession in 300 years, the last one has cost an estimated 500000 lives, why will this one be any different? And even with the lock down measures prolonged, will we have saved any lives any way, as our frail residents face a second and third spike in quick succession.
I understand that you my be scared and its overwhelming being constantly bombarded with negativity and fear, but before you completely isolate yourselves and fall out with loved ones and friends, ask yourself is lockdown still working, and what are the potential benefits of staying locked down versus, carrying on with some semblance of a normal life?"


Brilliant post. The hysterical fear that some people are showing is deeply worrying. People wearing masks in their cars or whilst on their own on a country walk is a prime example of this. Utterly irrational behaviour. If you are 45 and under with no underlying health conditions you have a very tiny risk of becoming significantly ill. Only 448 people have died in the country under this age.We have to stop hiding from this thing and get on with our lives. Younger fit people should all return to work whilst we continue to shield the elderly and vulnerable. Our fear and inability to rationalise the risk of this virus is going kill way more than Covid itself.
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Re: We scientists said lock down. But UK politicians refused

Postby pembroke allan » Sat May 23, 2020 9:50 am

Nuclearblue wrote:THIS IS FROM A DOCTOR WORKING IN BROADGREEN HOSPITAL:
"To all the people on here threatening to unfriend people, or wishing a second wave of COVID on people, for daring to go out in the sun yesterday, you really need to think about what you are writing, and a lot of you are health professionals as well.
What was the aim of lock down? What did every single health "expert" say was the reason to justify a lockdown? And why do we have a Flu season at all? And why have we continued to have a steady incidence rate despite being in lockdown? And why are thousands of elderly people dying in nursing homes?
The reason we had lockdown was to "flatten the curve" or buy time to increase ITU/crit care beds. Well with 4 nightingale hospitals mothballed and 50% of hospital beds lying empty, I think we have achieved that.
Not one "expert" worth his salt will tell you that we can stop a respiratory virus, and if they did they would be lying or I am deluded and we have no common cold or Flu cases every winter. So with a fifth of the country likely to have already had the virus and a health service with a massive amount of level 2 and level 3 beds, we are more than ready for a second spike, as it stands. Remember we cannot lock down forever and we need to come out, which brings me on to the Flu season.
Why do we have a flu season? The main reason we have a Flu season is because as it gets cooler people coop up and spend more time in close proximity, the population becomes denser and therefor it's easier for a virus to travel, also people tend to eat less fruit and veg and see less sunlight and our natural defences are slightly depleted, sound familiar?
The longer we stay locked down, the closer we will be to the next Flu season, so essentially you will be hitting a second spike as people begin to mix, late summer early Autumn which will be just as the next Flu seasons hits, so a second spike will lead nicely into a third and if you want to overwhelm the NHS then this is the exact way to do it.
Lastly why are so many elderly people dying of COVID, well it's largely down to the paranoia that people are displaying on platforms like facebook. GP's are not assessing elderly patients face to face, they are not being taken to hospital or they are terrified to go to hospital incase they get COVID, so they stay at home until it's too late.
Strokes are down up to 70%, where have these patient gone? MI's down 50%, Hospital attendances down 90%, where are all the falls?? But why do they all have COVID signs?
Well anyone who has worked with elderly patients, and I suspect lots of you have, will know there are multiple reasons an elderly person can develop a pneumonia (COVID symptoms). They might fall and be in pain therefore not fully expand their lungs and develop atelectasis and then pneumonia.
They may have reduced mobility, due to quarantine, and become constipated and this may push up on the diaphragm and cause atelectasis or cause them to vomit and aspirate leading to pneumonia.They may develop urinary retention and UTI, secondary to constipation, and become bed bound, causing more time in a prone position and develop a basal collapse of the lungs and again atelectasis and pneumonia. The fact that they have reduced mobility may even mean they spend more time in bed or just sitting, which again is enough to cause chest infection/pneumonia.
Strokes may not present (they aren't) and develop swallow issues and aspirate leading to pneumonia, MIs may present late and develop pulmonary oedema with a secondary infection again leading to pneumonia, and many may have a cold or a Flu (which is down 95%) and go on to develop a pneumonia.
All of the above reasons would cause a patient to have COVID symptoms and will kill elderly patients if not treated, and all of them are enough to be classed as a COVID death currently. And this is why so many nursing homes are being decimated, it's as much through fear as it is through COVID.
Before you campaign and sign petitions to lock yourselves and your family away, remember also that lock down has consequences.
The first 2 reasons are clear above, the elderly will become frail, not be treated and die in their thousands, and thousands of people will not attend A&E at all, or until it's too late and again will die. This is before you factor in the 60 thousand cancer patients that will lose their lives because of missed screening or delayed operations. And then there is the burden on mental health services and the deaths caused by domestic abuse or suicide. And that's before the biggest killer by far which will be austerity.
We are heading for the biggest recession in 300 years, the last one has cost an estimated 500000 lives, why will this one be any different? And even with the lock down measures prolonged, will we have saved any lives any way, as our frail residents face a second and third spike in quick succession.
I understand that you my be scared and its overwhelming being constantly bombarded with negativity and fear, but before you completely isolate yourselves and fall out with loved ones and friends, ask yourself is lockdown still working, and what are the potential benefits of staying locked down versus, carrying on with some semblance of a normal life?"



Some experts are saying now lockdown should be lifted as its purpose as been achieved extending it to long will create it's own problems not forgetting it is financially unsustainable! As for people wearing masks in cars and outside that is worse than wearing no mask at all in such cases, as scientists say bacteria will build up inside mask with prolonged wearing..
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Re: We scientists said lock down. But UK politicians refused

Postby rumpo kid » Sat May 23, 2020 10:09 am

TopCat CCFC wrote:Let's be fair - it's a free for all over here !!! People being paid while off work and in England - Do as you like .
Mixed Messages - Stay Home / Stay Safe - False Figures in Reports - Rule Breakers - Nations Not United ....
And Tonight we have this - Talking of advice ......

Dominic Cummings spoken to by police after breaching lockdown rules

Dominic Cummings, the Prime Minister's chief adviser, was spoken to by police after breaching lockdown rules by travelling from London to Durham to self-isolate at his parents' house.

Downing Street claimed at the time that Mr Cummings was "at home" in isolation after developing coronavirus symptoms, when in fact he was more than 260 miles away.

Labour said No 10 needed to provide a "very swift explanation" for Mr Cummings' actions.

"If accurate, the prime minister's chief adviser appears to have breached the lockdown rules. The government's guidance was very clear: stay at home and no non-essential travel," a spokesman said.

"The British people do not expect there to be one rule for
them and another rule for Dominic Cummings."



I think if you dig around you'll find its the same in most countries, other than those where the people are shit scared of the police..

As for the political tit for tat, I dont even know why its being posted on a football forum. We come on here to get away from all that bollox..no chance of that these days.
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Re: We scientists said lock down. But UK politicians refused

Postby ReesWestonSuperMare » Sat May 23, 2020 11:34 am

Lets be honest - the journalist is from the Guardian - so as a newspaper on the far left of journalism I'd be surprised if she came out in support of the Govt.

It is very very easy to be correct in hindsight and Ive not yet known anyone give the wrong advice in hindsight.

You cant base today's knowledge on yesterday's decisions. The Guardian seem to be looking everywhere for the smallest nugget of a story that may point to someone making the wrong decision - FFS - we were in the middle of a global pandemic. I never knew any global pandemic experts or virologists before this all kicked off - but now you find them everywhere in newspapers giving their opinion of what should have been done.

I dont recall hearing any of them give this advice before or as it started - perhaps Im wrong there - maybe the journalist did a piece on what she would have done
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Re: We scientists said lock down. But UK politicians refused

Postby TopCat CCFC » Sat May 23, 2020 12:20 pm

rumpo kid wrote:
TopCat CCFC wrote:Let's be fair - it's a free for all over here !!! People being paid while off work and in England - Do as you like .
Mixed Messages - Stay Home / Stay Safe - False Figures in Reports - Rule Breakers - Nations Not United ....
And Tonight we have this - Talking of advice ......

Dominic Cummings spoken to by police after breaching lockdown rules

Dominic Cummings, the Prime Minister's chief adviser, was spoken to by police after breaching lockdown rules by travelling from London to Durham to self-isolate at his parents' house.

Downing Street claimed at the time that Mr Cummings was "at home" in isolation after developing coronavirus symptoms, when in fact he was more than 260 miles away.

Labour said No 10 needed to provide a "very swift explanation" for Mr Cummings' actions.

"If accurate, the prime minister's chief adviser appears to have breached the lockdown rules. The government's guidance was very clear: stay at home and no non-essential travel," a spokesman said.

"The British people do not expect there to be one rule for
them and another rule for Dominic Cummings."



I think if you dig around you'll find its the same in most countries, other than those where the people are shit scared of the police..

As for the political tit for tat, I dont even know why its being posted on a football forum. We come on here to get away from all that bollox..no chance of that these days.


I think if you dig around you will find i have posted same sort of cases in Scotland - Wales - New Zealand - USA etc...
Also if you did your homework - I have said that i have Never voted for any political party - so tit for tat ??
What football is on at the moment to talk about ?? German and some mickey mouse league ( i have post on that too !! )
If you want to talk just football - Avoid these threads or better still - Start a thread on Football only topics .
At the end of the day weather you like it or not - it's the political / science people who decide when football is back.
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Re: We scientists said lock down. But UK politicians refused

Postby pembroke allan » Sat May 23, 2020 1:19 pm

Food for thought a bbc health correspondent did several of these antibody tests and came up positive but he never had corvid symptoms so does lockdown protect general population if people dont know had virus?
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Re: We scientists said lock down. But UK politicians refused

Postby skidemin » Sat May 23, 2020 1:56 pm

ReesWestonSuperMare wrote:Lets be honest - the journalist is from the Guardian - so as a newspaper on the far left of journalism I'd be surprised if she came out in support of the Govt.

It is very very easy to be correct in hindsight and Ive not yet known anyone give the wrong advice in hindsight.

You cant base today's knowledge on yesterday's decisions. The Guardian seem to be looking everywhere for the smallest nugget of a story that may point to someone making the wrong decision - FFS - we were in the middle of a global pandemic. I never knew any global pandemic experts or virologists before this all kicked off - but now you find them everywhere in newspapers giving their opinion of what should have been done.

I dont recall hearing any of them give this advice before or as it started - perhaps Im wrong there - maybe the journalist did a piece on what she would have done



Helen Ward is a scientist and works under Neil Furguson… ive put links of other experts opinions of their work in my earlier post... not exactly complimentary/

and in fairness if you get past the sensational headline although she is saying her and like minded scientists wanted earlier lock down she goes on to concede science around the disease is in its infancy and scientists all around the world are still trying to figure out how its spreading...
and the WE the scientists she refers to is the W.H.O..Italy and China.
well the WHO didn't even consider covid19 worthy of pandemic status until mid March , anmd have altered adive as we move along and more is learned..
Italys response was the biggest cluster fck possibly of all time
which leaves China..hmmm
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Re: We scientists said lock down. But UK politicians refused

Postby Panzermouse » Sat May 23, 2020 2:04 pm

ReesWestonSuperMare wrote:Lets be honest - the journalist is from the Guardian - so as a newspaper on the far left of journalism I'd be surprised if she came out in support of the Govt.

It is very very easy to be correct in hindsight and Ive not yet known anyone give the wrong advice in hindsight.

You cant base today's knowledge on yesterday's decisions. The Guardian seem to be looking everywhere for the smallest nugget of a story that may point to someone making the wrong decision - FFS - we were in the middle of a global pandemic. I never knew any global pandemic experts or virologists before this all kicked off - but now you find them everywhere in newspapers giving their opinion of what should have been done.

I dont recall hearing any of them give this advice before or as it started - perhaps Im wrong there - maybe the journalist did a piece on what she would have done


The Guardian is hardly far left is it. Apart from Owen Jones they rarely had anything positive to say about the last Labour leader.
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Re: We scientists said lock down. But UK politicians refused

Postby Panzermouse » Sat May 23, 2020 2:12 pm

Nuclearblue wrote:THIS IS FROM A DOCTOR WORKING IN BROADGREEN HOSPITAL:
"To all the people on here threatening to unfriend people, or wishing a second wave of COVID on people, for daring to go out in the sun yesterday, you really need to think about what you are writing, and a lot of you are health professionals as well.
What was the aim of lock down? What did every single health "expert" say was the reason to justify a lockdown? And why do we have a Flu season at all? And why have we continued to have a steady incidence rate despite being in lockdown? And why are thousands of elderly people dying in nursing homes?
The reason we had lockdown was to "flatten the curve" or buy time to increase ITU/crit care beds. Well with 4 nightingale hospitals mothballed and 50% of hospital beds lying empty, I think we have achieved that.
Not one "expert" worth his salt will tell you that we can stop a respiratory virus, and if they did they would be lying or I am deluded and we have no common cold or Flu cases every winter. So with a fifth of the country likely to have already had the virus and a health service with a massive amount of level 2 and level 3 beds, we are more than ready for a second spike, as it stands. Remember we cannot lock down forever and we need to come out, which brings me on to the Flu season.
Why do we have a flu season? The main reason we have a Flu season is because as it gets cooler people coop up and spend more time in close proximity, the population becomes denser and therefor it's easier for a virus to travel, also people tend to eat less fruit and veg and see less sunlight and our natural defences are slightly depleted, sound familiar?
The longer we stay locked down, the closer we will be to the next Flu season, so essentially you will be hitting a second spike as people begin to mix, late summer early Autumn which will be just as the next Flu seasons hits, so a second spike will lead nicely into a third and if you want to overwhelm the NHS then this is the exact way to do it.
Lastly why are so many elderly people dying of COVID, well it's largely down to the paranoia that people are displaying on platforms like facebook. GP's are not assessing elderly patients face to face, they are not being taken to hospital or they are terrified to go to hospital incase they get COVID, so they stay at home until it's too late.
Strokes are down up to 70%, where have these patient gone? MI's down 50%, Hospital attendances down 90%, where are all the falls?? But why do they all have COVID signs?
Well anyone who has worked with elderly patients, and I suspect lots of you have, will know there are multiple reasons an elderly person can develop a pneumonia (COVID symptoms). They might fall and be in pain therefore not fully expand their lungs and develop atelectasis and then pneumonia.
They may have reduced mobility, due to quarantine, and become constipated and this may push up on the diaphragm and cause atelectasis or cause them to vomit and aspirate leading to pneumonia.They may develop urinary retention and UTI, secondary to constipation, and become bed bound, causing more time in a prone position and develop a basal collapse of the lungs and again atelectasis and pneumonia. The fact that they have reduced mobility may even mean they spend more time in bed or just sitting, which again is enough to cause chest infection/pneumonia.
Strokes may not present (they aren't) and develop swallow issues and aspirate leading to pneumonia, MIs may present late and develop pulmonary oedema with a secondary infection again leading to pneumonia, and many may have a cold or a Flu (which is down 95%) and go on to develop a pneumonia.
All of the above reasons would cause a patient to have COVID symptoms and will kill elderly patients if not treated, and all of them are enough to be classed as a COVID death currently. And this is why so many nursing homes are being decimated, it's as much through fear as it is through COVID.
Before you campaign and sign petitions to lock yourselves and your family away, remember also that lock down has consequences.
The first 2 reasons are clear above, the elderly will become frail, not be treated and die in their thousands, and thousands of people will not attend A&E at all, or until it's too late and again will die. This is before you factor in the 60 thousand cancer patients that will lose their lives because of missed screening or delayed operations. And then there is the burden on mental health services and the deaths caused by domestic abuse or suicide. And that's before the biggest killer by far which will be austerity.
We are heading for the biggest recession in 300 years, the last one has cost an estimated 500000 lives, why will this one be any different? And even with the lock down measures prolonged, will we have saved any lives any way, as our frail residents face a second and third spike in quick succession.
I understand that you my be scared and its overwhelming being constantly bombarded with negativity and fear, but before you completely isolate yourselves and fall out with loved ones and friends, ask yourself is lockdown still working, and what are the potential benefits of staying locked down versus, carrying on with some semblance of a normal life?"


Where did you get this from and what was the doctor's name?
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Re: We scientists said lock down. But UK politicians refused

Postby skidemin » Sat May 23, 2020 2:15 pm

Panzermouse wrote:
ReesWestonSuperMare wrote:Lets be honest - the journalist is from the Guardian - so as a newspaper on the far left of journalism I'd be surprised if she came out in support of the Govt.

It is very very easy to be correct in hindsight and Ive not yet known anyone give the wrong advice in hindsight.

You cant base today's knowledge on yesterday's decisions. The Guardian seem to be looking everywhere for the smallest nugget of a story that may point to someone making the wrong decision - FFS - we were in the middle of a global pandemic. I never knew any global pandemic experts or virologists before this all kicked off - but now you find them everywhere in newspapers giving their opinion of what should have been done.

I dont recall hearing any of them give this advice before or as it started - perhaps Im wrong there - maybe the journalist did a piece on what she would have done


The Guardian is hardly far left is it. Apart from Owen Jones they rarely had anything positive to say about the last Labour leader.



not the best of yardsticks.. was very difficult to find anyone with positive things to say about him ?
even lost a confidence vote by Labour MPs 172 to 40...
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Re: We scientists said lock down. But UK politicians refused

Postby Panzermouse » Sat May 23, 2020 3:06 pm

skidemin wrote:
Panzermouse wrote:
ReesWestonSuperMare wrote:Lets be honest - the journalist is from the Guardian - so as a newspaper on the far left of journalism I'd be surprised if she came out in support of the Govt.

It is very very easy to be correct in hindsight and Ive not yet known anyone give the wrong advice in hindsight.

You cant base today's knowledge on yesterday's decisions. The Guardian seem to be looking everywhere for the smallest nugget of a story that may point to someone making the wrong decision - FFS - we were in the middle of a global pandemic. I never knew any global pandemic experts or virologists before this all kicked off - but now you find them everywhere in newspapers giving their opinion of what should have been done.

I dont recall hearing any of them give this advice before or as it started - perhaps Im wrong there - maybe the journalist did a piece on what she would have done


The Guardian is hardly far left is it. Apart from Owen Jones they rarely had anything positive to say about the last Labour leader.



not the best of yardsticks.. was very difficult to find anyone with positive things to say about him ?
even lost a confidence vote by Labour MPs 172 to 40...


I was simply pointing out that the Guardian is not far left newspaper and gave an example. Easy really.
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Re: We scientists said lock down. But UK politicians refused

Postby skidemin » Sat May 23, 2020 3:23 pm

Panzermouse wrote:
skidemin wrote:
Panzermouse wrote:
ReesWestonSuperMare wrote:Lets be honest - the journalist is from the Guardian - so as a newspaper on the far left of journalism I'd be surprised if she came out in support of the Govt.

It is very very easy to be correct in hindsight and Ive not yet known anyone give the wrong advice in hindsight.

You cant base today's knowledge on yesterday's decisions. The Guardian seem to be looking everywhere for the smallest nugget of a story that may point to someone making the wrong decision - FFS - we were in the middle of a global pandemic. I never knew any global pandemic experts or virologists before this all kicked off - but now you find them everywhere in newspapers giving their opinion of what should have been done.

I dont recall hearing any of them give this advice before or as it started - perhaps Im wrong there - maybe the journalist did a piece on what she would have done


The Guardian is hardly far left is it. Apart from Owen Jones they rarely had anything positive to say about the last Labour leader.



not the best of yardsticks.. was very difficult to find anyone with positive things to say about him ?
even lost a confidence vote by Labour MPs 172 to 40...


I was simply pointing out that the Guardian is not far left newspaper and gave an example. Easy really.



#and I was only pointing out that most labour supporters/ MPs could see he was going to hamstring them in any election..
bit like fans losing faith in and slaughtering a manager which happens frequently... going on a clubs message board reading this slaughtering and then concluding they are not Cardiff fans would be in error ?
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Re: We scientists said lock down. But UK politicians refused

Postby rumpo kid » Sat May 23, 2020 4:31 pm

TopCat.. you’re right mate, I’ll avoid these threads. They’re so full of inaccuracies and hearsay, I should have known better.
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Re: We scientists said lock down. But UK politicians refused

Postby TopCat CCFC » Sat May 23, 2020 5:07 pm

rumpo kid wrote:TopCat.. you’re right mate, I’ll avoid these threads. They’re so full of inaccuracies and hearsay, I should have known better.


Top Man Rumpo - Don't get me wrong there are days i wonder what is going to happen or said next in this Country .
Taking time out is key here - i spend my time in the garden and pop over later each day and look at most threads .
Agree with you wish we could talk about football again and this Covid would go - But sadly it's here for a while :(
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Re: We scientists said lock down. But UK politicians refused

Postby Panzermouse » Sun May 24, 2020 12:35 pm

skidemin wrote:
Panzermouse wrote:
skidemin wrote:
Panzermouse wrote:
ReesWestonSuperMare wrote:Lets be honest - the journalist is from the Guardian - so as a newspaper on the far left of journalism I'd be surprised if she came out in support of the Govt.

It is very very easy to be correct in hindsight and Ive not yet known anyone give the wrong advice in hindsight.

You cant base today's knowledge on yesterday's decisions. The Guardian seem to be looking everywhere for the smallest nugget of a story that may point to someone making the wrong decision - FFS - we were in the middle of a global pandemic. I never knew any global pandemic experts or virologists before this all kicked off - but now you find them everywhere in newspapers giving their opinion of what should have been done.

I dont recall hearing any of them give this advice before or as it started - perhaps Im wrong there - maybe the journalist did a piece on what she would have done


The Guardian is hardly far left is it. Apart from Owen Jones they rarely had anything positive to say about the last Labour leader.



not the best of yardsticks.. was very difficult to find anyone with positive things to say about him ?
even lost a confidence vote by Labour MPs 172 to 40...


I was simply pointing out that the Guardian is not far left newspaper and gave an example. Easy really.



#and I was only pointing out that most labour supporters/ MPs could see he was going to hamstring them in any election..
bit like fans losing faith in and slaughtering a manager which happens frequently... going on a clubs message board reading this slaughtering and then concluding they are not Cardiff fans would be in error ?


I was answering an incorrect assumption by someone else that that the Guardian is a "far left newspaper". It isnt. Why you think
I need you to point out the obvious about Corbyns election performance I don't know, because it isnt relevant to the subject of my comment which was that the Guardian is not a far left publication.
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Re: We scientists said lock down. But UK politicians refused

Postby davids » Sun May 24, 2020 2:13 pm

The problem is that even the scientists can't agree.

Yesterday I read two different articles where one set of "experts" said that lockdown had virtually no effect on the spread of the virus and a different set of "experts" said that if we had started lockdown two weeks sooner we would have saved thousands of lives.

The government have chosen to believe the philanderer Ferguson who has a history of being wildly inaccurate with his guesses previously with regards to SARS and the foot and mouth epidemic a few years ago. If I was as shit at my job as some of these clowns seem to be I'd expect to be laughed at and sacked rather than have my guesswork used as a means of formulating government policy affecting millions of lives.

Then we have that cockwomble Drayford who despite there being only 6 new deaths yesterday in Wales due to the virus (in a population of 3.5 million) is probably sitting at home trying to work out a way of keeping Wales in lockdown for another two to three years.

Although you will be allowed to sit on a bench and eat chips if you work at the Welsh Assembly.

I never vote at elections and people ask me why. I fully appreciate that many brave men and women have died over the years to earn me the freedom to vote and believe me when I say that I am forever in their debt. What they also gave me was the freedom to choose not to vote for any of the self serving, incompetent, do what I say and not what I do bunch of absolute fucktards that make up the vast majority of politicians of all political persuasions in this country.
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Re: We scientists said lock down. But UK politicians refused

Postby pembroke allan » Sun May 24, 2020 6:47 pm

davids wrote:The problem is that even the scientists can't agree.

Yesterday I read two different articles where one set of "experts" said that lockdown had virtually no effect on the spread of the virus and a different set of "experts" said that if we had started lockdown two weeks sooner we would have saved thousands of lives.

The government have chosen to believe the philanderer Ferguson who has a history of being wildly inaccurate with his guesses previously with regards to SARS and the foot and mouth epidemic a few years ago. If I was as shit at my job as some of these clowns seem to be I'd expect to be laughed at and sacked rather than have my guesswork used as a means of formulating government policy affecting millions of lives.

Then we have that cockwomble Drayford who despite there being only 6 new deaths yesterday in Wales due to the virus (in a population of 3.5 million) is probably sitting at home trying to work out a way of keeping Wales in lockdown for another two to three years.

Although you will be allowed to sit on a bench and eat chips if you work at the Welsh Assembly.

I never vote at elections and people ask me why. I fully appreciate that many brave men and women have died over the years to earn me the freedom to vote and believe me when I say that I am forever in their debt. What they also gave me was the freedom to choose not to vote for any of the self serving, incompetent, do what I say and not what I do bunch of absolute fucktards that make up the vast majority of politicians of all political persuasions in this country.


Posted similar earlier there is no positivity coming from WG no plan to ease lockdown will wait and see is his mantra then they try following boris or knickers in Scotland after they make plans! May not agree wither of them but at least they give people hope over next month or so, our lot cant decide what to have for dinner now saying forget this summer season let's try save 2021 holidays....your right about not opening pembs again he hates pembs he even voted to close his local hospital when was health minister! :roll:
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Re: We scientists said lock down. But UK politicians refused

Postby TopCat CCFC » Fri Jun 05, 2020 10:42 pm

Not 1 member from the Science team today - Just Matt The Clown ( another saying for some to pick up on !! ) :roll:

1st time this has happened the BBC Said - Wrong 2nd As they did not want to come out / even though they were there for ?

Matt Hancock - " WELL THAT'S A VERY GOOD QUESTION " - i will have to get back to you on that one -

Maybe it was your mate Dom ;) :oops:
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