Derby - A Moral Question : We know how Derby

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Derby - A Moral Question : We know how Derby

Postby Forever Blue » Fri Apr 23, 2021 5:26 am

Derby - A Moral Question :

We know how Derby cheated us on an important game by calling it off on the trumped up excuse of snow - and got away with it ...... “snowgate”.


They would have been missing quite a few players to injury (and I remember suspension) - some players being very important. The game was very important to both of us as we were both chasing the play-offs.



Presently they could easily be sucked into relegation because Rotherham have 3 games in hand (and are 4 points behind). Rotherham are putting up one hell of a fight. For example their last game against Middlesborough they were leading by one goal but lost 2-1 because they had a player sent off early in the first half.


The moral as well as the footballing question is ..... should we be playing a greatly weakened team against Rotherham in the last game of the season?





Personally , while my heart says yes yes yes - I believe that it is immoral to do so. Anyway , we are not supposed to do it by the footballing rules.

We can do it because all the players are on the registered list - and we know that many clubs for example play greatly weakened teams in the League and the FA cups and no one does anything.





This is really a hypothetical question because at the end of the day it is Tan’s decision who can order MM to do it. I don’t think MM will be minded to do it because he was not involved in the Derby “snowgate”.
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Derby - A Moral Question : We know how Derby

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Re: Derby - A Moral Question : We know how D

Postby Forever Blue » Fri Apr 23, 2021 5:29 am

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Re: Derby - A Moral Question : We know how D

Postby Sneggyblubird » Fri Apr 23, 2021 5:36 am

Trouble is once you go down that road it always comes back to bite you when you least want it.
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Re: Derby - A Moral Question : We know how D

Postby jimmy_rat » Fri Apr 23, 2021 5:38 am

Good question.

I don't like Derby. So I'd say do it. I mean if we were to play Harris, Sang (in the middle), Colwill, Brown. They all have a fair few games by now, established Championship players. Chuck in a couple who haven't played. It's not too inexperienced a team ;-)
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Re: Derby - A Moral Question : We know how D

Postby Valleyblue56 » Fri Apr 23, 2021 5:43 am

Its been talked about where I live haha ..sod derby county been hoping for a while rotherham could pull out of relegation
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Re: Derby - A Moral Question : We know how D

Postby Isawgarystevensscoreagoal » Fri Apr 23, 2021 6:31 am

Whether it proves to be a "weaker" team is as yet unknown. We should though be playing a wholly different team to the one of late and it should include some of the younger players as that it what is in the best interests of our club.
As a side issue I hope Derby go down
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Re: Derby - A Moral Question : We know how D

Postby oohahhPaulMillar » Fri Apr 23, 2021 6:37 am

Sneggyblubird wrote:Trouble is once you go down that road it always comes back to bite you when you least want it.


Very good point, whilst I am no lover of Derby not just because of snowgate but also their constant FFP irregularities

If we do deliberately field a weakened team, other teams and managers will remember this and no doubt it will happen to us in the future
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Re: Derby - A Moral Question : We know how D

Postby theclaw » Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:08 am

Forget about Derby as what will be will be,let’s do what’s right for Cardiff City.If that means blooding some youngsters on the last day of season so be it.
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Re: Derby - A Moral Question : We know how D

Postby Barclay1 » Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:31 am

Brown, Sang, Colwill, Ng, Harris, Patten, Davies, Evans will all be part of our first team next year whether they are good enough or not, so to play them at the end of this season I don't think will be seen as playing a weakened side.

In answer to your question however, yes we should, and I hope Derby go down. Can't forgive them for snowgate, then seeing them dancing like they'd won the Champions League when they beat us in the rearranged fixture.
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Re: Derby - A Moral Question : We know how D

Postby AfricanBluebird » Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:34 am

Excellent question.

I think we should put out a strong side but with one or two younger players in the starting line-up and a healthy use of young substitutions - in the 60-70th minutes, not with a few minutes to go.

I would LOVE Derby to go down. Not only because of 'snowgate' but because they initially appointed Rooney as a 'coach' but really he was only supposed to be a player, in order to circumvent the FFP rules. Wankers.
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Re: Derby - A Moral Question : We know how D

Postby Sven » Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:45 am

As a professional club and one that has integrity, I believe we should be part of NO shennanigans of this ilk and have no fingers (and certainly not 6) being pointed in our direction

Both Derby County and Rotherham have gotten themselves in their situations for differing reasons (Derby the more sinister) and it is up to them to sort it out or otherwise

Snowgate was a blatant and ultimately widely acknowledged ploy that amounted to professional cheating and shouldn't be forgotten; but we have moved on and ultimately gained the promotion we were seeking

I was on one of the coaches that was turned around close to the groun for the original (cancelled) game and also for the (disappointing) rearranged game later and even the (I have to say always decent in my experience) Derby supporters agreed it was a disgrace...

But, it has gone, it's in the past and no game should be a base or an excuse to short change another or it would happen somewhere at some club every week

Consider this, too...

"Did Neil ap Warnock help his old club out the other night...?"

Answer was an emphatic NO; and to the extent his team (no surprises here) fought back from 1 - 0 down, got an opponent sent off and won the game

They, 'Boro, had nothing on the game either but they competed; and that's called 'sporting integrity' and I believe our manager is cut from the same cloth, i.e. EVERY game is one in which to compete to win...
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Re: Derby - A Moral Question : We know how D

Postby castleblue » Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:15 am

Any club that claims to be professional would play the best team they have available for each and every game for the integrity of the game, competition and the good name of the club. Rotherham are putting up a fight but if they are to stay up they must earn that right. In a way the answer to the question raised is the same as why the ESL was doomed to failure.

Sport is not sport if it's not competitive and Rotherham have to compete against the best team each of their opponents put out on the day.

I may be wrong but I thought the EFL were going through an appeal against the decision of an Independent panel to cancel the 6 point deduction on Derby for financial reasons. I'm not sure if that has been decided but if Derby lose their stuffed.


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Re: Derby - A Moral Question : We know how D

Postby Sven » Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:35 am

castleblue wrote:Any club that claims to be professional would play the best team they have available for each and every game for the integrity of the game, competition and the good name of the club. Rotherham are putting up a fight but if they are to stay up they must earn that right. In a way the answer to the question raised is the same as why the ESL was doomed to failure.
Well said (again) Gary; and we live in hope on the Derby decision, which I'll be honest and say I wasn't aware of... :thumbright:
Sport is not sport if it's not competitive and Rotherham have to compete against the best team each of their opponents put out on the day.

I may be wrong but I thought the EFL were going through an appeal against the decision of an Independent panel to cancel the 6 point deduction on Derby for financial reasons. I'm not sure if that has been decided but if Derby lose their stuffed.


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Re: Derby - A Moral Question : We know how D

Postby Scoularite » Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:10 am

castleblue » Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:15 am

Any club that claims to be professional would play the best team they have available for each and every game for the integrity of the game, competition and the good name of the club. Rotherham are putting up a fight but if they are to stay up they must earn that right. In a way the answer to the question raised is the same as why the ESL was doomed to failure.

Sport is not sport if it's not competitive and Rotherham have to compete against the best team each of their opponents put out on the day.

I may be wrong but I thought the EFL were going through an appeal against the decision of an Independent panel to cancel the 6 point deduction on Derby for financial reasons. I'm not sure if that has been decided but if Derby lose their stuffed.


Football is now a squad game, as teams at both the top and bottom of the Premiership regularly demonstrate. The days of always putting out the "strongest" team are long gone and teams now need to manage their squads for their own benefit. That doesn't mean deliberately putting out a weakened team, but trying out a couple of the youngsters to look to the future would seem to be a logical way forward as some big decisions will need to be taken during the close season.

We need to be looking after our future.
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Re: Derby - A Moral Question : We know how D

Postby Escott1927 » Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:34 am

Taken a strong dislike to derby as a club and their fans in recent years. Snowgate, trying to buy promotion and dodging ffp etc. But I wouldn't purposely put out a team that had no chance of competing, its not a good look. For the development of our club and youngsters though, I do want to see 1 or 2 players given a run over the next 3 games. Even if its just one at a time. Sounds like a few of these boys will be expected to be in the squad regularly next season so its a good time to get them playing when there is nothing riding on it for us.

I do hope derby go down though.
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Re: Derby - A Moral Question : We know how D

Postby Sven » Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:54 am

Scoularite wrote:
castleblue » Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:15 am

Any club that claims to be professional would play the best team they have available for each and every game for the integrity of the game, competition and the good name of the club. Rotherham are putting up a fight but if they are to stay up they must earn that right. In a way the answer to the question raised is the same as why the ESL was doomed to failure.

Sport is not sport if it's not competitive and Rotherham have to compete against the best team each of their opponents put out on the day.

I may be wrong but I thought the EFL were going through an appeal against the decision of an Independent panel to cancel the 6 point deduction on Derby for financial reasons. I'm not sure if that has been decided but if Derby lose their stuffed.


Football is now a squad game, as teams at both the top and bottom of the Premiership regularly demonstrate. The days of always putting out the "strongest" team are long gone and teams now need to manage their squads for their own benefit. That doesn't mean deliberately putting out a weakened team, but trying out a couple of the youngsters to look to the future would seem to be a logical way forward as some big decisions will need to be taken during the close season.

We need to be looking after our future.

Was that answer related to the original question though...? :?

It was one of 'sporting integrity', so I think not... ;)
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Re: Derby - A Moral Question : We know how D

Postby Don Keydick » Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:03 am

Forever Blue wrote:Derby - A Moral Question :

We know how Derby cheated us on an important game by calling it off on the trumped up excuse of snow - and got away with it ...... “snowgate”.


They would have been missing quite a few players to injury (and I remember suspension) - some players being very important. The game was very important to both of us as we were both chasing the play-offs.



Presently they could easily be sucked into relegation because Rotherham have 3 games in hand (and are 4 points behind). Rotherham are putting up one hell of a fight. For example their last game against Middlesborough they were leading by one goal but lost 2-1 because they had a player sent off early in the first half.


The moral as well as the footballing question is ..... should we be playing a greatly weakened team against Rotherham in the last game of the season?





Personally , while my heart says yes yes yes - I believe that it is immoral to do so. Anyway , we are not supposed to do it by the footballing rules.

We can do it because all the players are on the registered list - and we know that many clubs for example play greatly weakened teams in the League and the FA cups and no one does anything.





This is really a hypothetical question because at the end of the day it is Tan’s decision who can order MM to do it. I don’t think MM will be minded to do it because he was not involved in the Derby “snowgate”.


Annis, like loads of others, I travelled up to Derby for the snowgate game the day before. Spent all afternoon and all evening in the Merlin pub by the ground. When we heard the game was off, some Derby fans in there said asked if I thought Warnock would have done the same thing to call it off. I told them of course he would have, and that's right. Given the same injury list, Warnock would have done anything to get the game called off.
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Re: Derby - A Moral Question : We know how D

Postby maccydee » Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:58 am

It’s not Tan’s decision though is it and I dare say it wouldn’t have even crossed his mind.

If Warnock was still here though.
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Re: Derby - A Moral Question : We know how D

Postby Bakedalasker » Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:04 am

We should put out our strongest team because we are above this.

If we do end up playing a few youngsters I would like to think they got into the squad/team through merit.
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Re: Derby - A Moral Question : We know how D

Postby Tony Blue Williams » Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:17 am

Who actually would decide what is our strongest side was?
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Re: Derby - A Moral Question : We know how D

Postby maccydee » Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:44 am

Tony Blue Williams wrote:Who actually would decide what is our strongest side was?


Tan apparently
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Re: Derby - A Moral Question : We know how D

Postby llan bluebird » Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:12 pm

I don't think its a moral question. Who is to say what your strongest team is?

Did we play our strongest side in the FA cup final, we let a kid who ended up being elite sit on the bench. Colwell could be Rambo Mk2, Joe Ralls and only be championship level at 22 or Tommy O'Sullivan never making it and playing for Gloucester

We act as if we don't have 2 youngsters starting. Brown and Sang were names we never talked about at the start of the season or even Christmas.

We know that at least Watters is L2, wouldn't mind him getting a taste of the stuff he could do in the dungeon but can't get away within the championship because the defenders are better.
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Re: Derby - A Moral Question : We know how D

Postby castleblue » Fri Apr 23, 2021 1:10 pm

Tony Blue Williams wrote:Who actually would decide what is our strongest side was?


I'm sure the EFL introduced a new rule in 2018 following the case where Huddersfield Town made 10 changes to their match against Birmingham, which Birmingham won 2-0, Huddersfield were already guaranteed a playoff place but thanks to the win Birmingham survived by 2 points and Blackburn Rovers were relegated.

I think the new rule says that on or after the 4th Thursday in March each club team sheet (Includes subs) MUST contain 10 outfield players who were listed in the previous match.

So MM picks the team but must respect that rule. Hope that makes sense Tony.


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Re: Derby - A Moral Question : We know how D

Postby Tony Blue Williams » Fri Apr 23, 2021 1:26 pm

castleblue wrote:
Tony Blue Williams wrote:Who actually would decide what is our strongest side was?


I'm sure the EFL introduced a new rule in 2018 following the case where Huddersfield Town made 10 changes to their match against Birmingham, which Birmingham won 2-0, Huddersfield were already guaranteed a playoff place but thanks to the win Birmingham survived by 2 points and Blackburn Rovers were relegated.

I think the new rule says that on or after the 4th Thursday in March each club team sheet (Includes subs) MUST contain 10 outfield players who were listed in the previous match.

So MM picks the team but must respect that rule. Hope that makes sense Tony.


:bluescarf: :bluescarf:


Thanks for the information Gary. I have wondered about this for sometime so again thanks for clearing the matter up.

That said wouldn't it be true that due to the youngsters being included in the match day squad for sometime now we wouldn't fall foul of the above rule if MM did decide to play them?
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Re: Derby - A Moral Question : We know how D

Postby Tony Blue Williams » Fri Apr 23, 2021 1:30 pm

llan bluebird wrote:I don't think its a moral question. Who is to say what your strongest team is?

Did we play our strongest side in the FA cup final, we let a kid who ended up being elite sit on the bench. Colwell could be Rambo Mk2, Joe Ralls and only be championship level at 22 or Tommy O'Sullivan never making it and playing for Gloucester

We act as if we don't have 2 youngsters starting. Brown and Sang were names we never talked about at the start of the season or even Christmas.

We know that at least Watters is L2, wouldn't mind him getting a taste of the stuff he could do in the dungeon but can't get away within the championship because the defenders are better.


Excellent point. Also as mentioned above the other young players have been named as Subs for sometime now which surely means we wouldn't fall foul of the new rule introduced 2018 which CastleBlue has described above.
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Re: Derby - A Moral Question : We know how D

Postby Scoularite » Fri Apr 23, 2021 2:10 pm

Sven » Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:54 am

Scoularite wrote:
castleblue » Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:15 am

Any club that claims to be professional would play the best team they have available for each and every game for the integrity of the game, competition and the good name of the club. Rotherham are putting up a fight but if they are to stay up they must earn that right. In a way the answer to the question raised is the same as why the ESL was doomed to failure.

Sport is not sport if it's not competitive and Rotherham have to compete against the best team each of their opponents put out on the day.

I may be wrong but I thought the EFL were going through an appeal against the decision of an Independent panel to cancel the 6 point deduction on Derby for financial reasons. I'm not sure if that has been decided but if Derby lose their stuffed.


Football is now a squad game, as teams at both the top and bottom of the Premiership regularly demonstrate. The days of always putting out the "strongest" team are long gone and teams now need to manage their squads for their own benefit. That doesn't mean deliberately putting out a weakened team, but trying out a couple of the youngsters to look to the future would seem to be a logical way forward as some big decisions will need to be taken during the close season.

We need to be looking after our future.

Was that answer related to the original question though...? :?

It was one of 'sporting integrity', so I think not... ;)


The question was, as I read it
The moral as well as the footballing question is ..... should we be playing a greatly weakened team against Rotherham in the last game of the season?


My answer stated
The days of always putting out the "strongest" team are long gone and teams now need to manage their squads for their own benefit. That doesn't mean deliberately putting out a weakened team,


As I think that we are not particularly creative in the middle of the park it might, hopefully, make us more of a force.
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Re: Derby - A Moral Question : We know how D

Postby castleblue » Fri Apr 23, 2021 3:05 pm

Tony Blue Williams wrote:
castleblue wrote:
Tony Blue Williams wrote:Who actually would decide what is our strongest side was?


I'm sure the EFL introduced a new rule in 2018 following the case where Huddersfield Town made 10 changes to their match against Birmingham, which Birmingham won 2-0, Huddersfield were already guaranteed a playoff place but thanks to the win Birmingham survived by 2 points and Blackburn Rovers were relegated.

I think the new rule says that on or after the 4th Thursday in March each club team sheet (Includes subs) MUST contain 10 outfield players who were listed in the previous match.

So MM picks the team but must respect that rule. Hope that makes sense Tony.


:bluescarf: :bluescarf:


Thanks for the information Gary. I have wondered about this for sometime so again thanks for clearing the matter up.

That said wouldn't it be true that due to the youngsters being included in the match day squad for sometime now we wouldn't fall foul of the above rule if MM did decide to play them?


I checked and that rule is in place but it only states players named on the team sheet not starting so as long as there are 10 outfield players from the Brentford game on the team sheet MM could play some youngsters with no comeback.

:bluescarf: :bluescarf:
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Re: Derby - A Moral Question : We know how D

Postby Tony Blue Williams » Fri Apr 23, 2021 4:24 pm

castleblue wrote:
Tony Blue Williams wrote:
castleblue wrote:
Tony Blue Williams wrote:Who actually would decide what is our strongest side was?


I'm sure the EFL introduced a new rule in 2018 following the case where Huddersfield Town made 10 changes to their match against Birmingham, which Birmingham won 2-0, Huddersfield were already guaranteed a playoff place but thanks to the win Birmingham survived by 2 points and Blackburn Rovers were relegated.

I think the new rule says that on or after the 4th Thursday in March each club team sheet (Includes subs) MUST contain 10 outfield players who were listed in the previous match.

So MM picks the team but must respect that rule. Hope that makes sense Tony.


:bluescarf: :bluescarf:


Thanks for the information Gary. I have wondered about this for sometime so again thanks for clearing the matter up.

That said wouldn't it be true that due to the youngsters being included in the match day squad for sometime now we wouldn't fall foul of the above rule if MM did decide to play them?


I checked and that rule is in place but it only states players named on the team sheet not starting so as long as there are 10 outfield players from the Brentford game on the team sheet MM could play some youngsters with no comeback.

:bluescarf: :bluescarf:


Thanks Gary :thumbright: :thumbright: :thumbright:
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Re: Derby - A Moral Question : We know how D

Postby Danny Says » Fri Apr 23, 2021 4:34 pm

I always recall the way City didn’t compete in a final game of the season in @78 or 79 against Orient which had a bearing on relegation. There was gossip of something underhand.
I wouldn’t want my club to stoop to any chicanery.
In any event it’s likely to be immaterial as by then Rotherham would have been already relegated.
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Re: Derby - A Moral Question : We know how D

Postby Grandstand » Fri Apr 23, 2021 6:17 pm

Hope the owls go down as there are players Cardiff need. Pato will be the first.
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