Yesterday’s Freedom March in London

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Re: Yesterday’s Freedom March in London

Postby Igovernor » Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:06 pm

Nuclearblue wrote:
Igovernor wrote:
1980s Bluebird wrote:It would be great if that amount of people would march against why we have foodbanks, why are people homeless, why the rich getting richer, why the elite are getting away with anything and everything. White collar crime goes untouched.

Agree with you, much better than 2m covid spreaders!

Hmmm how many people go to the supermarkets every day ?

99.9% wearing masks this march I quote from the flyer
"No need to wear masks"
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Re: Yesterday’s Freedom March in London

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Re: Yesterday’s Freedom March in London

Postby ealing_ayatollah » Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:21 pm

maccydee wrote:
bluesince62 wrote:
maccydee wrote:
Nuclearblue wrote:The truth is scientists and medical experts knew everything about Covid 19 in March 2020 and it’s very low mortality rate and that is a Fact. Yep Igovner my wife has MS and we have done everything to protect her from viruses (all of them) for nearly 12 years. And Covid19 is absolutely no different. I have never said Covid19 was fake just the pandemic is fake.
Covid19 never destroyed thousands of businesses the government has.
Covid19 never put many thousands if not millions on the dole the government has
Covid19 was not responsible for countless suicides due to this the government was
Covid19 was not responsible for mental health issues going through the roof the government was.
Covid19 was not responsible for the old dying on their own in care homes the government was
Covid19 was not responsible for everyone not seeing their own family for a year the government was.
Who has gained from this ? Supermarkets and they have been taking record amounts every day. Amazon have had a record year and taking on many more workers all on minimum wage and so are the likes of DPD etc. PPE Companies are making record amounts and politicians that gave their mates the contracts.
And to answer one question of why there was a demo ? The clue was in the title “Freedom March”.
So can people stop saying that I think Covid19 is fake it isn’t just it’s no bloody different from other viruses we have all lived with for as long as humans have been about.


Nukes it is different.

It’s new.



What coronavirus is new? No it isnt at all, this is just another strain of it.


This is new and vastly different to any other. Hence it’s killing people.


When you say its new are you referring to the India variant or something else?

If Indian variant - do you have a source for that as I've not seen anything that would suggest it is more deadly (not saying it is;t there I just haven't seen it)

Looking at the data, India's currently suffering appx two deaths per million people a day at the moment during this spike in infections which has well surpassed their first wave. In comparison at the peak of our second wave in January, our peak was 18 deaths per million.

Indian variant looks to be more transmissible and India is facing a tragedy given the size of population and lack of practical infrastructure to handle an epidemic at that scale, but the variant doesn't seem to be anymore or less deadly?

Like I say I might have missed something, so asking in the best of intentions :thumbup:
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Re: Yesterday’s Freedom March in London

Postby Igovernor » Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:38 pm

From what understand the scientists are saying that it is not more deadly but it is much more infectious!

But according to some what do the scientists know :lol:
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Re: Yesterday’s Freedom March in London

Postby maccydee » Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:31 pm

ealing_ayatollah wrote:
maccydee wrote:
bluesince62 wrote:
maccydee wrote:
Nuclearblue wrote:The truth is scientists and medical experts knew everything about Covid 19 in March 2020 and it’s very low mortality rate and that is a Fact. Yep Igovner my wife has MS and we have done everything to protect her from viruses (all of them) for nearly 12 years. And Covid19 is absolutely no different. I have never said Covid19 was fake just the pandemic is fake.
Covid19 never destroyed thousands of businesses the government has.
Covid19 never put many thousands if not millions on the dole the government has
Covid19 was not responsible for countless suicides due to this the government was
Covid19 was not responsible for mental health issues going through the roof the government was.
Covid19 was not responsible for the old dying on their own in care homes the government was
Covid19 was not responsible for everyone not seeing their own family for a year the government was.
Who has gained from this ? Supermarkets and they have been taking record amounts every day. Amazon have had a record year and taking on many more workers all on minimum wage and so are the likes of DPD etc. PPE Companies are making record amounts and politicians that gave their mates the contracts.
And to answer one question of why there was a demo ? The clue was in the title “Freedom March”.
So can people stop saying that I think Covid19 is fake it isn’t just it’s no bloody different from other viruses we have all lived with for as long as humans have been about.


Nukes it is different.

It’s new.



What coronavirus is new? No it isnt at all, this is just another strain of it.


This is new and vastly different to any other. Hence it’s killing people.


When you say its new are you referring to the India variant or something else?

If Indian variant - do you have a source for that as I've not seen anything that would suggest it is more deadly (not saying it is;t there I just haven't seen it)

Looking at the data, India's currently suffering appx two deaths per million people a day at the moment during this spike in infections which has well surpassed their first wave. In comparison at the peak of our second wave in January, our peak was 18 deaths per million.

Indian variant looks to be more transmissible and India is facing a tragedy given the size of population and lack of practical infrastructure to handle an epidemic at that scale, but the variant doesn't seem to be anymore or less deadly?

Like I say I might have missed something, so asking in the best of intentions :thumbup:


No I mean Covid 19 is a new coronavirus and isn’t the same as other corona viruses which don’t kill people.

Quite clearly people die with or of Covid 19 and it was first seen late 2019. Hence it is new.

The people who say differently are wrong.

The variants out there are offshoots of the Covid 19 coronavirus which the experts said would happen.
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Re: Yesterday’s Freedom March in London

Postby maccydee » Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:34 pm

Nuclearblue wrote:
Igovernor wrote:
1980s Bluebird wrote:It would be great if that amount of people would march against why we have foodbanks, why are people homeless, why the rich getting richer, why the elite are getting away with anything and everything. White collar crime goes untouched.

Agree with you, much better than 2m covid spreaders!

Hmmm how many people go to the supermarkets every day ?


But they aren’t walking close to each other in a supermarket. And people are doing what they need to do which is to get food.

However the fact it is very minimal now in this country due to lockdown and the vaccination programme plus it being outside should reduce the effects of this march.
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Re: Yesterday’s Freedom March in London

Postby WestCoastBlue » Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:13 pm

Nuclearblue wrote:
Igovernor wrote:
rumpo kid wrote:But those with Covid may have died of their underlying health conditions. In which case, Covid did not kill them. I can’t prove that, like your statements, it’s supposition.


Read my last post I have highlighted the important part
If they did not catch covid then they may not have died with their underlining health conditions

But as the fact goes death rates in 2020 was statistically the same as deaths over the last 30-40 years.


That's simply not true though and it's something you've continually stated despite people pointing out it's incorrect. Simply saying it's a fact does not make it so.

In 2020 in England and Wales there were 608,002 deaths, in 2019 there were 530,841 deaths.
Between 1990 and 2019 the average deaths per year was ~530,700.
Between 2000 and 2019 it was ~515,000.
Between 2010 and 2019 it was ~513,000.

2020's number of deaths was a 15% increase on the 30 year average, an 18% increase on the 20 year average and a 19% increase on the previous 10 year average.

All of this info is easily found on the ONS website:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transpar ... 1990to2020

Below shows the number of deaths since 1990 and how it's changed over time:
Attachments
Deaths.png
Deaths.png (19.93 KiB) Viewed 516 times
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Re: Yesterday’s Freedom March in London

Postby Nuclearblue » Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:37 pm

Igovernor wrote:
Nuclearblue wrote:
Igovernor wrote:
1980s Bluebird wrote:It would be great if that amount of people would march against why we have foodbanks, why are people homeless, why the rich getting richer, why the elite are getting away with anything and everything. White collar crime goes untouched.

Agree with you, much better than 2m covid spreaders!

Hmmm how many people go to the supermarkets every day ?

99.9% wearing masks this march I quote from the flyer
"No need to wear masks"

Masks don’t protect you from viruses. The only way you could spread is sneezing or coughing so just like your mother taught you cover you mouth with your hand as others don’t want your germs. The fact is you hand gives you a perfect seal is lost on most but masks do not in any way shape or form. Now cover your face alike a good boy :laughing6: :laughing6: :laughing6:
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Re: Yesterday’s Freedom March in London

Postby Nuclearblue » Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:39 pm

WestCoastBlue wrote:
Nuclearblue wrote:
Igovernor wrote:
rumpo kid wrote:But those with Covid may have died of their underlying health conditions. In which case, Covid did not kill them. I can’t prove that, like your statements, it’s supposition.


Read my last post I have highlighted the important part
If they did not catch covid then they may not have died with their underlining health conditions

But as the fact goes death rates in 2020 was statistically the same as deaths over the last 30-40 years.


That's simply not true though and it's something you've continually stated despite people pointing out it's incorrect. Simply saying it's a fact does not make it so.

In 2020 in England and Wales there were 608,002 deaths, in 2019 there were 530,841 deaths.
Between 1990 and 2019 the average deaths per year was ~530,700.
Between 2000 and 2019 it was ~515,000.
Between 2010 and 2019 it was ~513,000.

2020's number of deaths was a 15% increase on the 30 year average, an 18% increase on the 20 year average and a 19% increase on the previous 10 year average.

All of this info is easily found on the ONS website:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transpar ... 1990to2020

Below shows the number of deaths since 1990 and how it's changed over time:


The government statistics I saw was the last 40 years. And how many have died of suicide this past year ? Add that on to your above total as it’s huge.
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Re: Yesterday’s Freedom March in London

Postby WestCoastBlue » Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:05 pm

Nuclearblue wrote:
WestCoastBlue wrote:
Nuclearblue wrote:
Igovernor wrote:
rumpo kid wrote:But those with Covid may have died of their underlying health conditions. In which case, Covid did not kill them. I can’t prove that, like your statements, it’s supposition.


Read my last post I have highlighted the important part
If they did not catch covid then they may not have died with their underlining health conditions

But as the fact goes death rates in 2020 was statistically the same as deaths over the last 30-40 years.


That's simply not true though and it's something you've continually stated despite people pointing out it's incorrect. Simply saying it's a fact does not make it so.

In 2020 in England and Wales there were 608,002 deaths, in 2019 there were 530,841 deaths.
Between 1990 and 2019 the average deaths per year was ~530,700.
Between 2000 and 2019 it was ~515,000.
Between 2010 and 2019 it was ~513,000.

2020's number of deaths was a 15% increase on the 30 year average, an 18% increase on the 20 year average and a 19% increase on the previous 10 year average.

All of this info is easily found on the ONS website:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transpar ... 1990to2020

Below shows the number of deaths since 1990 and how it's changed over time:


The government statistics I saw was the last 40 years. And how many have died of suicide this past year ? Add that on to your above total as it’s huge.


Okay including the 1980's then the average deaths per year from 1980 to 2019 was 542,000. Which means 2020 was a 12% increase on the 40 year average. So saying 2020 was statistically the same as the last 30-40 years is still incorrect, these numbers also being from the ONS:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transpar ... 1980to1992

If we add the new numbers to the same graph:
Deaths.png
Deaths.png (22.9 KiB) Viewed 496 times


Also I don't understand your point about suicides? The 608k figure includes all deaths from all causes in England and Wales in 2020, including suicides.
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Re: Yesterday’s Freedom March in London

Postby Igovernor » Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:22 pm

Nuclearblue wrote:
Igovernor wrote:
Nuclearblue wrote:
Igovernor wrote:
1980s Bluebird wrote:It would be great if that amount of people would march against why we have foodbanks, why are people homeless, why the rich getting richer, why the elite are getting away with anything and everything. White collar crime goes untouched.

Agree with you, much better than 2m covid spreaders!

Hmmm how many people go to the supermarkets every day ?

99.9% wearing masks this march I quote from the flyer
"No need to wear masks"

Masks don’t protect you from viruses. The only way you could spread is sneezing or coughing so just like your mother taught you cover you mouth with your hand as others don’t want your germs. The fact is you hand gives you a perfect seal is lost on most but masks do not in any way shape or form. Now cover your face alike a good boy :laughing6: :laughing6: :laughing6:


Wow are you for real, of course masks protect you, I suppose you read this on some spurious website. I have been in the medical profession all my life and I do know more about infections and protection than you ever will, if you spent the rest of your life learning about it. Covid19 is not only airbourne but can be passed by contact. Someone has covid coughs into their hand, (as you say) shakes hands with you and you touch your mouth job done.
I have just realized something, so I will waste no more time posting, to someone that is absolutely nuts, I just hope you don't catch covid on you nice little walk to freedom :wave:
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Re: Yesterday’s Freedom March in London

Postby Nuclearblue » Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:30 pm

WestCoastBlue wrote:
Nuclearblue wrote:
WestCoastBlue wrote:
Nuclearblue wrote:
Igovernor wrote:
rumpo kid wrote:But those with Covid may have died of their underlying health conditions. In which case, Covid did not kill them. I can’t prove that, like your statements, it’s supposition.


Read my last post I have highlighted the important part
If they did not catch covid then they may not have died with their underlining health conditions

But as the fact goes death rates in 2020 was statistically the same as deaths over the last 30-40 years.


That's simply not true though and it's something you've continually stated despite people pointing out it's incorrect. Simply saying it's a fact does not make it so.

In 2020 in England and Wales there were 608,002 deaths, in 2019 there were 530,841 deaths.
Between 1990 and 2019 the average deaths per year was ~530,700.
Between 2000 and 2019 it was ~515,000.
Between 2010 and 2019 it was ~513,000.

2020's number of deaths was a 15% increase on the 30 year average, an 18% increase on the 20 year average and a 19% increase on the previous 10 year average.

All of this info is easily found on the ONS website:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transpar ... 1990to2020

Below shows the number of deaths since 1990 and how it's changed over time:


The government statistics I saw was the last 40 years. And how many have died of suicide this past year ? Add that on to your above total as it’s huge.


Okay including the 1980's then the average deaths per year from 1980 to 2019 was 542,000. Which means 2020 was a 12% increase on the 40 year average. So saying 2020 was statistically the same as the last 30-40 years is still incorrect, these numbers also being from the ONS:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transpar ... 1980to1992

If we add the new numbers to the same graph:
Deaths.png


Also I don't understand your point about suicides? The 608k figure includes all deaths from all causes in England and Wales in 2020, including suicides.

What I meant to say and to late to edit that suicide is also included obviously and they were massive. And not to mention deaths by hospitals not doing surgery many could of been life savers as well. Preventable deaths is occurring not of Covid but because of Covid.
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Re: Yesterday’s Freedom March in London

Postby Nuclearblue » Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:39 pm

Igovernor wrote:
Nuclearblue wrote:
Igovernor wrote:
Nuclearblue wrote:
Igovernor wrote:
1980s Bluebird wrote:It would be great if that amount of people would march against why we have foodbanks, why are people homeless, why the rich getting richer, why the elite are getting away with anything and everything. White collar crime goes untouched.

Agree with you, much better than 2m covid spreaders!

Hmmm how many people go to the supermarkets every day ?

99.9% wearing masks this march I quote from the flyer
"No need to wear masks"

Masks don’t protect you from viruses. The only way you could spread is sneezing or coughing so just like your mother taught you cover you mouth with your hand as others don’t want your germs. The fact is you hand gives you a perfect seal is lost on most but masks do not in any way shape or form. Now cover your face alike a good boy :laughing6: :laughing6: :laughing6:


Wow are you for real, of course masks protect you, I suppose you read this on some spurious website. I have been in the medical profession all my life and I do know more about infections and protection than you ever will, if you spent the rest of your life learning about it. Covid19 is not only airbourne but can be passed by contact. Someone has covid coughs into their hand, (as you say) shakes hands with you and you touch your mouth job done.
I have just realized something, so I will waste no more time posting, to someone that is absolutely nuts, I just hope you don't catch covid on you nice little walk to freedom :wave:


Someone’s tired lol
Now come on I got told by an ICU Nurse that even the best masks only protect for a very short time frame and basically are useless against viruses. Bacteria maybe but viruses would go straight through them masks.
Well thank you for your compliments lol but at least I ain’t a sheep believing the government is keeping you safe. Mind you that’s how dictatorship countries work by spreading fear.
You only have to see the differences in The rich and poor to see this. If you are rich off on your holidays you can go.
22 footballers can play football that’s ok. Rugby players an have a scrum down but you couldn’t meet your own mother kids, Grandkids in your garden. You can’t walk up a mountain on your own but can herd into a supermarket The BS is ohh so real.
Get real Chief
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Re: Yesterday’s Freedom March in London

Postby WestCoastBlue » Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:45 pm

Nuclearblue wrote:
WestCoastBlue wrote:
Nuclearblue wrote:
WestCoastBlue wrote:
Nuclearblue wrote:
Igovernor wrote:
rumpo kid wrote:But those with Covid may have died of their underlying health conditions. In which case, Covid did not kill them. I can’t prove that, like your statements, it’s supposition.


Read my last post I have highlighted the important part
If they did not catch covid then they may not have died with their underlining health conditions

But as the fact goes death rates in 2020 was statistically the same as deaths over the last 30-40 years.


That's simply not true though and it's something you've continually stated despite people pointing out it's incorrect. Simply saying it's a fact does not make it so.

In 2020 in England and Wales there were 608,002 deaths, in 2019 there were 530,841 deaths.
Between 1990 and 2019 the average deaths per year was ~530,700.
Between 2000 and 2019 it was ~515,000.
Between 2010 and 2019 it was ~513,000.

2020's number of deaths was a 15% increase on the 30 year average, an 18% increase on the 20 year average and a 19% increase on the previous 10 year average.

All of this info is easily found on the ONS website:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transpar ... 1990to2020

Below shows the number of deaths since 1990 and how it's changed over time:


The government statistics I saw was the last 40 years. And how many have died of suicide this past year ? Add that on to your above total as it’s huge.


Okay including the 1980's then the average deaths per year from 1980 to 2019 was 542,000. Which means 2020 was a 12% increase on the 40 year average. So saying 2020 was statistically the same as the last 30-40 years is still incorrect, these numbers also being from the ONS:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transpar ... 1980to1992

If we add the new numbers to the same graph:
Deaths.png


Also I don't understand your point about suicides? The 608k figure includes all deaths from all causes in England and Wales in 2020, including suicides.

What I meant to say and to late to edit that suicide is also included obviously and they were massive. And not to mention deaths by hospitals not doing surgery many could of been life savers as well. Preventable deaths is occurring not of Covid but because of Covid.


Suicides are a tricky one as most involve an inquest which takes several months which has been delayed due to Covid (up to a 6 months delay according to the ONS) so the final tally isn't out. However, there are provisional numbers based of of Q1, Q2 and Q3 which has allowed the ONS to put the number of suicides in England in 2020 at 4,902.

This would certainly be higher than average over the last 20 years, which is 4,557 suicides per year, but is only the 3rd highest number of suicides in a year over the last 20 years.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... rinengland

Subtracting suicides from the total still has 2020's number of deaths over 600k, significantly higher than any other year in the last 40 years.

Suicides make up less than 0.8% of the total deaths in 2020.
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Re: Yesterday’s Freedom March in London

Postby ealing_ayatollah » Thu Apr 29, 2021 7:59 pm

maccydee wrote:
No I mean Covid 19 is a new coronavirus and isn’t the same as other corona viruses which don’t kill people.

Quite clearly people die with or of Covid 19 and it was first seen late 2019. Hence it is new.

The people who say differently are wrong.

The variants out there are offshoots of the Covid 19 coronavirus which the experts said would happen.


Ah OK understand what your saying now thanks for clarifying. :thumbup:

It's not quite as simple as that though...

MERS, SwineFLu and SARS are all coronaviruses that killed people. COVID19 (SARS-CoV-2) isn't any different in that regard in fact SARS had a much higher mortality rate and was about 10% more likely to result in hospitalisation. The difference is that the transmission rate for COVID is much higher.

There has also been some well-respected research from late last year that t-cell generation resulting from previous coronavirus infection offer some immunity specifically to SARS COV-2.

To quote from the report (links below)

Instead of continuing uninformative mass PCR testing, what we need are thoroughly conducted population-based epidemiological studies of immunity (pre-existing, acquired, maintained) because it has been shown, that “infection with coronaviruses induces multi-specific and long-lasting T-cell immunity that affects the susceptibility to and pathogenesis of SARS-CoV-2 infection in the population”. [6] This knowledge is crucial also with respect to the usefulness and safety of covid-19 vaccines.

The suppression strategy does not appear to have protected the most vulnerable and in our eyes may have done more harm than good and should therefore be abandoned as soon as possible. As most coronavirus deaths occurred in large nursing homes and care homes, it is of paramount importance that pandemic preparedness plans pay much more attention to social and health care systems.


I honestly don't think there are many people denying that COVID19 is real and kills people, but many, myself included are querying the veracity of the total numbers presented and more importantly whether lockdown was an effective means of containing the virus or if it did more damage economically, socially and possibly actually magnified the impact of the virus by slowing herd immunity.

A couple of links - the quote is from the first one which is from the British Medical Journal

https://www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3563/rr-10
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2550-z
https://www.healthline.com/health/coronavirus-vs-sars
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Re: Yesterday’s Freedom March in London

Postby ealing_ayatollah » Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:31 pm

Igovernor wrote:I have been in the medical profession all my life and I do know more about infections and protection than you ever will, if you spent the rest of your life learning about it. Covid19 is not only airbourne but can be passed by contact.


Sorry to be picky Guv but COVID's transmission vector is not airborne at all, it is droplet-based the two are different. I must confess I haven't spent all my life in the medical profession so less gravitas to back my claim up but am fairly broadly read and a link below to a more authoritative source than me on that. :thumbup:

No study has demonstrated actual clinical evidence of the airborne transmission of SARS-CoV-2;

https://www.pennmedicine.org/updates/bl ... te-article

Also, honestly not trying to pick an argument but the point you make about coughing into your hand and then transmitting the virus via touch...

I get your point but the number of times people touch their masks adjusting them constantly, plus I'd wager many re-use their paper masks and very few wash their reusable masks each time they use them as they should. Every time someone fiddles with their mask they could be transmitting the virus to their hands in the exact same manner you describe.

The good news though is that it is increasingly becoming apparent that the passive vector transmission of the virus i.e. infected person touches a mask, then touches an inanimate object, say a shopping trolley and then the next person to touch that trolley gets infected appears to be particularly rare.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00251-4
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Re: Yesterday’s Freedom March in London

Postby maccydee » Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:43 pm

ealing_ayatollah wrote:
maccydee wrote:
No I mean Covid 19 is a new coronavirus and isn’t the same as other corona viruses which don’t kill people.

Quite clearly people die with or of Covid 19 and it was first seen late 2019. Hence it is new.

The people who say differently are wrong.

The variants out there are offshoots of the Covid 19 coronavirus which the experts said would happen.


Ah OK understand what your saying now thanks for clarifying. :thumbup:

It's not quite as simple as that though...

MERS, SwineFLu and SARS are all coronaviruses that killed people. COVID19 (SARS-CoV-2) isn't any different in that regard in fact SARS had a much higher mortality rate and was about 10% more likely to result in hospitalisation. The difference is that the transmission rate for COVID is much higher.

There has also been some well-respected research from late last year that t-cell generation resulting from previous coronavirus infection offer some immunity specifically to SARS COV-2.

To quote from the report (links below)

Instead of continuing uninformative mass PCR testing, what we need are thoroughly conducted population-based epidemiological studies of immunity (pre-existing, acquired, maintained) because it has been shown, that “infection with coronaviruses induces multi-specific and long-lasting T-cell immunity that affects the susceptibility to and pathogenesis of SARS-CoV-2 infection in the population”. [6] This knowledge is crucial also with respect to the usefulness and safety of covid-19 vaccines.

The suppression strategy does not appear to have protected the most vulnerable and in our eyes may have done more harm than good and should therefore be abandoned as soon as possible. As most coronavirus deaths occurred in large nursing homes and care homes, it is of paramount importance that pandemic preparedness plans pay much more attention to social and health care systems.


I honestly don't think there are many people denying that COVID19 is real and kills people, but many, myself included are querying the veracity of the total numbers presented and more importantly whether lockdown was an effective means of containing the virus or if it did more damage economically, socially and possibly actually magnified the impact of the virus by slowing herd immunity.

A couple of links - the quote is from the first one which is from the British Medical Journal

https://www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3563/rr-10
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2550-z
https://www.healthline.com/health/coronavirus-vs-sars


Excellent post.

I very much agree the numbers have been massively inflated.

Lockdown was a very blunt instrument to curtail and it works but at a cost. However what happened with care homes was ridiculous.
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Re: Yesterday’s Freedom March in London

Postby ealing_ayatollah » Thu Apr 29, 2021 9:20 pm

maccydee wrote:Lockdown was a very blunt instrument to curtail and it works but at a cost. However what happened with care homes was ridiculous.


100% agree with the above. :thumbup:

My view is that lockdown worked and was the right tool for the first wave and I truly think most people were behind it at that point.

After the first lockdown, the data could and should have been evaluated and better preparations and planning could have been implemented to protect both the vulnerable, the economy and the mental wellbeing of the population from there on in.
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Re: Yesterday’s Freedom March in London

Postby Igovernor » Thu Apr 29, 2021 9:52 pm

ealing_ayatollah wrote:
Igovernor wrote:I have been in the medical profession all my life and I do know more about infections and protection than you ever will, if you spent the rest of your life learning about it. Covid19 is not only airbourne but can be passed by contact.


Sorry to be picky Guv but COVID's transmission vector is not airborne at all, it is droplet-based the two are different. I must confess I haven't spent all my life in the medical profession so less gravitas to back my claim up but am fairly broadly read and a link below to a more authoritative source than me on that. :thumbup:

No study has demonstrated actual clinical evidence of the airborne transmission of SARS-CoV-2;

https://www.pennmedicine.org/updates/bl ... te-article

Also, honestly not trying to pick an argument but the point you make about coughing into your hand and then transmitting the virus via touch...

I get your point but the number of times people touch their masks adjusting them constantly, plus I'd wager many re-use their paper masks and very few wash their reusable masks each time they use them as they should. Every time someone fiddles with their mask they could be transmitting the virus to their hands in the exact same manner you describe.

The good news though is that it is increasingly becoming apparent that the passive vector transmission of the virus i.e. infected person touches a mask, then touches an inanimate object, say a shopping trolley and then the next person to touch that trolley gets infected appears to be particularly rare.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00251-4


Excuse me but if you have covid and cough then the droplets become airbourne, it is transmitted through the air and can travel a fair distance!
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Re: Yesterday’s Freedom March in London

Postby ealing_ayatollah » Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:05 pm

Igovernor wrote:
ealing_ayatollah wrote:
Igovernor wrote:I have been in the medical profession all my life and I do know more about infections and protection than you ever will, if you spent the rest of your life learning about it. Covid19 is not only airbourne but can be passed by contact.


Sorry to be picky Guv but COVID's transmission vector is not airborne at all, it is droplet-based the two are different. I must confess I haven't spent all my life in the medical profession so less gravitas to back my claim up but am fairly broadly read and a link below to a more authoritative source than me on that. :thumbup:

No study has demonstrated actual clinical evidence of the airborne transmission of SARS-CoV-2;

https://www.pennmedicine.org/updates/bl ... te-article

Also, honestly not trying to pick an argument but the point you make about coughing into your hand and then transmitting the virus via touch...

I get your point but the number of times people touch their masks adjusting them constantly, plus I'd wager many re-use their paper masks and very few wash their reusable masks each time they use them as they should. Every time someone fiddles with their mask they could be transmitting the virus to their hands in the exact same manner you describe.

The good news though is that it is increasingly becoming apparent that the passive vector transmission of the virus i.e. infected person touches a mask, then touches an inanimate object, say a shopping trolley and then the next person to touch that trolley gets infected appears to be particularly rare.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00251-4


Excuse me but if you have covid and cough then the droplets become airbourne, it is transmitted through the air and can travel a fair distance!


Yeah, I'm being picky. Mea culpa.

To be honest, it just tickled me that you went with the whole 'I'll know more than you could ever know about infections and diseases because I spent my entire life in the medical profession' grandstanding approach in your response to Nukes and then in the very next sentence proceeded to make a statement that was definitively incorrect within the bounds of the medical definition.

Was just a delicious slice of irony but no offence meant, I just found it a bit amusing and couldn't resist pointing it out. :thumbup:
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Re: Yesterday’s Freedom March in London

Postby WestCoastBlue » Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:08 pm

Igovernor wrote:
ealing_ayatollah wrote:
Igovernor wrote:I have been in the medical profession all my life and I do know more about infections and protection than you ever will, if you spent the rest of your life learning about it. Covid19 is not only airbourne but can be passed by contact.


Sorry to be picky Guv but COVID's transmission vector is not airborne at all, it is droplet-based the two are different. I must confess I haven't spent all my life in the medical profession so less gravitas to back my claim up but am fairly broadly read and a link below to a more authoritative source than me on that. :thumbup:

No study has demonstrated actual clinical evidence of the airborne transmission of SARS-CoV-2;

https://www.pennmedicine.org/updates/bl ... te-article

Also, honestly not trying to pick an argument but the point you make about coughing into your hand and then transmitting the virus via touch...

I get your point but the number of times people touch their masks adjusting them constantly, plus I'd wager many re-use their paper masks and very few wash their reusable masks each time they use them as they should. Every time someone fiddles with their mask they could be transmitting the virus to their hands in the exact same manner you describe.

The good news though is that it is increasingly becoming apparent that the passive vector transmission of the virus i.e. infected person touches a mask, then touches an inanimate object, say a shopping trolley and then the next person to touch that trolley gets infected appears to be particularly rare.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00251-4


Excuse me but if you have covid and cough then the droplets become airbourne, it is transmitted through the air and can travel a fair distance!


I understand you're in the medical profession and have a much better understanding of all thinks medical related but would droplets be considered the same as airborne transmission?

Excuse the rather simple example, but if I'm in a pub (those were the days) having a piss in the toilets and I'm stood one over from another bloke having a piss there's a chance some splashback will land on my shoes. However if I'm stood 3 or 4 urinals over I'm not in the splash zone. But if it was a particularly pungent piss I might be able to smell it and someone who walks in a few minutes later would also smell it as it lingers in the air.
Essentially the droplets are only a danger if I'm too close when they're released, however the smell is airborne and lingers for a long time after the droplets have been released and landed on the floor. In that scenario I wouldn't consider the droplets airborne just because they have a journey from penis to floor.

Excuse my ignorance, as I said it's oversimplified and crude but would that not be the difference between droplets and airborne?
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Re: Yesterday’s Freedom March in London

Postby Igovernor » Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:16 am

ealing_ayatollah wrote:
Igovernor wrote:
ealing_ayatollah wrote:
Igovernor wrote:I have been in the medical profession all my life and I do know more about infections and protection than you ever will, if you spent the rest of your life learning about it. Covid19 is not only airbourne but can be passed by contact.


Sorry to be picky Guv but COVID's transmission vector is not airborne at all, it is droplet-based the two are different. I must confess I haven't spent all my life in the medical profession so less gravitas to back my claim up but am fairly broadly read and a link below to a more authoritative source than me on that. :thumbup:

No study has demonstrated actual clinical evidence of the airborne transmission of SARS-CoV-2;

https://www.pennmedicine.org/updates/bl ... te-article

Also, honestly not trying to pick an argument but the point you make about coughing into your hand and then transmitting the virus via touch...

I get your point but the number of times people touch their masks adjusting them constantly, plus I'd wager many re-use their paper masks and very few wash their reusable masks each time they use them as they should. Every time someone fiddles with their mask they could be transmitting the virus to their hands in the exact same manner you describe.

The good news though is that it is increasingly becoming apparent that the passive vector transmission of the virus i.e. infected person touches a mask, then touches an inanimate object, say a shopping trolley and then the next person to touch that trolley gets infected appears to be particularly rare.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00251-4


Excuse me but if you have covid and cough then the droplets become airbourne, it is transmitted through the air and can travel a fair distance!


Yeah, I'm being picky. Mea culpa.

To be honest, it just tickled me that you went with the whole 'I'll know more than you could ever know about infections and diseases because I spent my entire life in the medical profession' grandstanding approach in your response to Nukes and then in the very next sentence proceeded to make a statement that was definitively incorrect within the bounds of the medical definition.

Was just a delicious slice of irony but no offence meant, I just found it a bit amusing and couldn't resist pointing it out. :thumbup:


This is just the main article from the lancet if you need to read the full article there is a link at the bottom.

As we approach the end of 2020, and a year since the outbreak of COVID-19 began, cases are increasing again. We have learnt a lot about SARS-CoV-2 and our ability to test for and manage COVID-19 has improved, but ongoing debate remains about how SARS-CoV-2 is transmitted.
Respiratory viruses are transmitted in three main ways. First, contact transmission, where someone comes into direct contact with an infected person or touches a surface that has been contaminated. Second, through droplet transmission of both large and small respiratory droplets that contain the virus, which would occur when near an infected person. Third, through airborne transmission of smaller droplets and particles that are suspended in the air over longer distances and time than droplet transmission.


During the initial stages of the pandemic there was concern about surface transmission. However, latest research suggests that this is unlikely to be a major route of transmission as although SARS-CoV-2 can persist for days on inanimate surfaces, attempts to culture the virus from these surfaces were unsuccessful.
Infection control guidelines have stated that most respiratory virus transmission occurs from large infected droplets produced by coughing, sneezing, and breathing in close proximity to another person. This understanding has led to social distancing being the cornerstone of public health advice, but confusion exists as to the safe distance required between people to reduce transmission with the WHO suggesting 1 m and the CDC and NHS saying 2 m. For social distancing to be effective, infective respiratory particles would need to fall to the ground or be in low enough concentrations at 2 m from the source to not cause transmission. Studies and guidelines have historically used a threshold of 5 μm to differentiate between large and small particles, but researchers are now suggesting that a size threshold of 100 μm better differentiates aerodynamic behaviour of particles, and particles that would fall to the ground within 2 m are likely to be 60–100 μm in size. Investigators have also measured particle sizes of infectious aerosols and have shown that pathogens are most commonly found in small particle aerosols (<5 μm), which are airborne and breathable.
This knowledge is also corroborated by investigation of spread of cases between people who were not in direct or indirect contacInitially it was thought that airborne transmission of SARS-CoV-2 was unlikely, but growing evidence has highlighted that infective microdroplets are small enough to remain suspended in the air and expose individuals at distances beyond 2 m from an infected person.t, suggesting that airborne transmission was the most likely route. In July, over 200 scientists published a statement calling for international bodies to recognise the potential for airborne spread of COVID-19 as they were concerned that people would not be fully protected by adhering to the current recommendations.
On Oct 5, 2020, the CDC updated their COVID-19 webpage to say that there is growing evidence that COVID-19 infection can occur from airborne exposure to the virus under certain circumstances. Cases of transmission from people more than 2 m apart have occurred but in enclosed spaces with poor ventilation, and typically with extended exposure to an infected person of more than 30 min. The CDC have been clear to point out that most infections are spread through close contact and that airborne transmission is not the primary route of transmission.


https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanr ... 13-2600(20)30514-2/fulltext
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Re: Yesterday’s Freedom March in London

Postby Igovernor » Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:20 am

WestCoastBlue wrote:
Igovernor wrote:
ealing_ayatollah wrote:
Igovernor wrote:I have been in the medical profession all my life and I do know more about infections and protection than you ever will, if you spent the rest of your life learning about it. Covid19 is not only airbourne but can be passed by contact.


Sorry to be picky Guv but COVID's transmission vector is not airborne at all, it is droplet-based the two are different. I must confess I haven't spent all my life in the medical profession so less gravitas to back my claim up but am fairly broadly read and a link below to a more authoritative source than me on that. :thumbup:

No study has demonstrated actual clinical evidence of the airborne transmission of SARS-CoV-2;

https://www.pennmedicine.org/updates/bl ... te-article

Also, honestly not trying to pick an argument but the point you make about coughing into your hand and then transmitting the virus via touch...

I get your point but the number of times people touch their masks adjusting them constantly, plus I'd wager many re-use their paper masks and very few wash their reusable masks each time they use them as they should. Every time someone fiddles with their mask they could be transmitting the virus to their hands in the exact same manner you describe.

The good news though is that it is increasingly becoming apparent that the passive vector transmission of the virus i.e. infected person touches a mask, then touches an inanimate object, say a shopping trolley and then the next person to touch that trolley gets infected appears to be particularly rare.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00251-4


Excuse me but if you have covid and cough then the droplets become airbourne, it is transmitted through the air and can travel a fair distance!


I understand you're in the medical profession and have a much better understanding of all thinks medical related but would droplets be considered the same as airborne transmission?

Excuse the rather simple example, but if I'm in a pub (those were the days) having a piss in the toilets and I'm stood one over from another bloke having a piss there's a chance some splashback will land on my shoes. However if I'm stood 3 or 4 urinals over I'm not in the splash zone. But if it was a particularly pungent piss I might be able to smell it and someone who walks in a few minutes later would also smell it as it lingers in the air.
Essentially the droplets are only a danger if I'm too close when they're released, however the smell is airborne and lingers for a long time after the droplets have been released and landed on the floor. In that scenario I wouldn't consider the droplets airborne just because they have a journey from penis to floor.

Excuse my ignorance, as I said it's oversimplified and crude but would that not be the difference between droplets and airborne?


If you read my latest post above, it is self explanatary :thumbup:
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Re: Yesterday’s Freedom March in London

Postby WestCoastBlue » Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:24 am

Igovernor wrote:
WestCoastBlue wrote:
Igovernor wrote:
ealing_ayatollah wrote:
Igovernor wrote:I have been in the medical profession all my life and I do know more about infections and protection than you ever will, if you spent the rest of your life learning about it. Covid19 is not only airbourne but can be passed by contact.


Sorry to be picky Guv but COVID's transmission vector is not airborne at all, it is droplet-based the two are different. I must confess I haven't spent all my life in the medical profession so less gravitas to back my claim up but am fairly broadly read and a link below to a more authoritative source than me on that. :thumbup:

No study has demonstrated actual clinical evidence of the airborne transmission of SARS-CoV-2;

https://www.pennmedicine.org/updates/bl ... te-article

Also, honestly not trying to pick an argument but the point you make about coughing into your hand and then transmitting the virus via touch...

I get your point but the number of times people touch their masks adjusting them constantly, plus I'd wager many re-use their paper masks and very few wash their reusable masks each time they use them as they should. Every time someone fiddles with their mask they could be transmitting the virus to their hands in the exact same manner you describe.

The good news though is that it is increasingly becoming apparent that the passive vector transmission of the virus i.e. infected person touches a mask, then touches an inanimate object, say a shopping trolley and then the next person to touch that trolley gets infected appears to be particularly rare.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00251-4


Excuse me but if you have covid and cough then the droplets become airbourne, it is transmitted through the air and can travel a fair distance!


I understand you're in the medical profession and have a much better understanding of all thinks medical related but would droplets be considered the same as airborne transmission?

Excuse the rather simple example, but if I'm in a pub (those were the days) having a piss in the toilets and I'm stood one over from another bloke having a piss there's a chance some splashback will land on my shoes. However if I'm stood 3 or 4 urinals over I'm not in the splash zone. But if it was a particularly pungent piss I might be able to smell it and someone who walks in a few minutes later would also smell it as it lingers in the air.
Essentially the droplets are only a danger if I'm too close when they're released, however the smell is airborne and lingers for a long time after the droplets have been released and landed on the floor. In that scenario I wouldn't consider the droplets airborne just because they have a journey from penis to floor.

Excuse my ignorance, as I said it's oversimplified and crude but would that not be the difference between droplets and airborne?


If you read my latest post above, it is self explanatary :thumbup:


Seen it, cheers :thumbright:
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Re: Yesterday’s Freedom March in London

Postby maccydee » Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:27 am

This
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Re: Yesterday’s Freedom March in London

Postby Igovernor » Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:55 am

:laughing5: :laughing5: :laughing5: :thumbup: :ayatollah:
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Re: Yesterday’s Freedom March in London

Postby maccydee » Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:00 am

I read online that there are 6 murders that have been classed as Covid deaths as the murderer put a positive Covid test next to their bodies.

Don’t shoot the messenger just read it on

www.novaccinesearthisflatcovidisfakeagenda30.boll.ocks
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Re: Yesterday’s Freedom March in London

Postby ealing_ayatollah » Fri Apr 30, 2021 12:57 pm



(Trimmed the above quote down just to make it easier on the page but left this bit so you know what I'm replying to)


Ultimately it is a matter of semantics, but to make SARS-COV2 fit a definition of airborne transmission the scientific community is having to redefine the parameters of droplet-based transmission and as yet still hasn't been done - just 'compelling' cases put forwards as to why SARS-COV2 as airborne.

https://www.bmj.com/content/373/bmj.n913

SARS-COV2 is not airborne transmissible within the parameters of the existing definition. The way I (and others far smarter than I) see this debate is that the lancet article you cited (amongst other papers) is essentially proposing the extension of the parameters of droplet transmission and then shifting this into airborne transmission within those extended parameters and within specific environment (mainly poorly ventilated indoor spaces).

"Cases of transmission from people more than 2 m apart have occurred but in enclosed spaces with poor ventilation, and typically with extended exposure to an infected person of more than 30 min"

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanr ... 13-2600(20)30514-2/fulltext

It is an important observation, but it is a long way from confirming that SARS-COV2 is airborne transmissible (hence why it is currently a debate within the scientific community)

The existing definition for airborne transmission is that generally, particles under 5 microns (droplet nuclei) can stay suspended in the air for long/indefinite periods of time whereas particles above this size (droplet transmission) can stay airborne for less time. In the case of the former, contamination can occur after the removal of a host, in the case of the latter infection occurs when the host is present.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmission_(medicine)

There is some confusion and debate that arises from the fact the molecule of SARS-COV2 (Covid19) is only 0.1microns so could theoretically be light enough for airborne transmission. However, the same argument put forward as to why a mask with why an N95 protection is effective despite theoretically the holes within the filters being larger than the virus molecules, is also valid for why COVID19 would be droplet transmission based in all but very, very specific environments.

Basically "the virus attaches to water droplets or aerosols (i.e. really small droplets) that are generated by breathing, talking, coughing, etc. These consist of water, mucus protein and other biological material."

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/fact ... 343537002/

The debate about whether COVID19 is airborne is not settled but it is evident COVID19 does not fall within the existing parameters of airborne transmission in the overwhelming majority of conditions. If it is to be reclassified that is a shift in a long-standing definition that has stood for many years to a new definition, which is one that has not even been clearly defined as yet.

The WHO has made a very slight acquiescence to the potential of SARS-COV2 being potentially airborne with the following statement:

In the context of COVID-19, airborne transmission may be possible in specific circumstances and settings in which procedures or support treatments that generate aerosols are performed; i.e., endotracheal intubation, bronchoscopy, open suctioning, administration of nebulized treatment, manual ventilation before intubation, turning the patient to the prone position, disconnecting the patient from the ventilator, non-invasive positive-pressure ventilation, tracheostomy, and cardiopulmonary resuscitation.

This almost reads like a disclaimer in my eyes (i.e it may be possible in very specific conditions so WHO won't rule it out in case it bites them on the arse, but is highly unlikely), but I'll gladly acknowledge it is some layer of acknowledgement of the redefinition of airborne transmission relating to COVID19.


OK why is this even important?

The reason why it is particularly important for this definition to be understood is twofold.

Firstly, our understanding of the transmission mechanism is dictating mitigation protocols such as social distancing measures. Imprecise language can only ever lead to imprecise guidance, which leads to ineffective policy.

Secondly, as we know that SARS-COV2 is capable of intraspecies transmission and as far as I am aware all coronaviruses are zoonotic (have come from animals). If COVID was truly airborne in its original definition we should be thinking seriously about mass culling of huge swathes of potentially susceptible animals as if the disease is airborne, and animals can be infected, then a free moving population of animal hosts would be a potential catalyst for a far bigger crisis than it already is.

This wouldn't just be bats and pangolins either.

From the CDC - we know that companion animals like cats and dogs, big cats in zoos or sanctuaries, gorillas in zoos, mink on farms, and a few other mammals can be infected with SARS-CoV-2

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... imals.html

So there is a good reason why the scientific community is debating whether SARS-COV2 is airborne or not. The ramifications of it being airborne are massive. The understanding of how far droplet transmission is effective is critical in how we approach further mitigation. There is a valid discussion to be had undoubtedly.

However, the nuance of that debate if I'm to be blunt, just doesn't fit in with your description of:

"if you have covid and cough then the droplets become airbourne, it is transmitted through the air and can travel a fair distance!"

That is factually an incorrect description and is in fact a definition of droplet-based transmission. However, given you made a point of outlining your credentials a lot of people will take what you say at face value, but it was wrong within the scientific definitions as they currently stand. It is quite an important debate to be had at the minute because as I say the ramifications could be huge if it were to be airborne transmissible.

End of the day, I just feel that there is already enough incorrect information out there and those with less experience of the subject matter could leap to further assumptions at a time when hyperbole and fear are already at maximum levels. Someone with a longstanding medical background stating that COVID19 is airborne transmissible can just feed further confirmation bias of the very pervasive and dangerous levels of fear that many people have at this moment.

There was one poster on here a while back that literally stated this was an extinction-level event. That is not rational thought. However, I don't blame the poster particularly, it is something of an extreme example of what many are feeling, but it is the direct result of over 12-months worth of bombardment of exaggerated danger levels. (see my other long, boring post in this thread)

I just think it is more important now than ever before for the discussion to be balanced so people can make more rationalised choices, so I wanted to present the other side of the debate, for those of us who do not have an extensive background in the medical profession and to hopefully do so with reasonable supporting evidence and most importantly in a civil tone - which was my intention.

Finally, just to say very explicitly, I have zero quarrels with you personally Guv, I genuinely like a lot of your posts, I agree with some and not others but that is what life is all about right?

Additionally, I'd just like to say I have huge admiration, gratitude and respect for anyone and everyone who has dedicated their lives to helping others as you clearly have spent your life in the medical profession. :thumbup:


Back to work now though so will leave it at that (think I've hit my quota of boring long posts on the site for this week anyway) Will stick to the footy posts for the weekend so you can all breathe a sigh of relief. :lol:

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Re: Yesterday’s Freedom March in London

Postby ealing_ayatollah » Fri Apr 30, 2021 12:59 pm

maccydee wrote:I read online that there are 6 murders that have been classed as Covid deaths as the murderer put a positive Covid test next to their bodies.

Don’t shoot the messenger just read it on

http://www.novaccinesearthisflatcovidis ... .boll.ocks


:lol:
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Re: Yesterday’s Freedom March in London

Postby Big Hill Blue » Fri Apr 30, 2021 1:08 pm

ealing_ayatollah wrote:
maccydee wrote:I read online that there are 6 murders that have been classed as Covid deaths as the murderer put a positive Covid test next to their bodies.

Don’t shoot the messenger just read it on

http://www.novaccinesearthisflatcovidis ... .boll.ocks


:lol:



Very good :)
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Re: Yesterday’s Freedom March in London

Postby 1980s Bluebird » Fri Apr 30, 2021 2:15 pm

BREAKING NEWS: Cardiff City FC fanbase has the highest number of non qualified virologists and scientists in the world ffs.... :banghead: :ayatollah: :bluebird:
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