“ Did Neil Warnock get it wrong?? “
Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:20 pm
MY VIEW:
Absolutely brilliant to see finally a couple of great future players, But No way are 10 all going to be quality Championship players.
Did Neil Warnock get it wrong?
Has Mick McCarthy got it right?
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=145418
The blunt Neil Warnock statement that may have proved wrong as Cardiff City plot new path? ?
Mick McCarthy has brought ten younger players in to the 24 first team squad and is now reaping the rewards of playing youngsters.
The former Bluebirds boss spoke about players coming through Cardiff's youth system during his time at the club
By Glen Williams
Thursday 14th October 2021
Middlesbrough manager and former Cardiff City boss Neil Warnock (Image: Nick Potts/PA Wire)
Neil Warnock did almost everything right during his brilliant three-year reign as Cardiff City manager.
He united the club with its fan base, assembled an exciting squad which achieved promotion to the Premier League and very nearly stayed in the top flight the year after.
He will go down as a legend in these parts and rightly so.
If there is one blot on his copybook, though, it is his record with bringing through youth in the Welsh capital?
The now Middlesbrough boss was quizzed on that aspect of his Bluebirds tenure a year ago, while speaking on BBC 5 Live, and his assessment of the youngsters sprouting through was pretty blunt.
NEIL WARNOCK:
"I was criticised a little bit at Cardiff about the under-23s," the former Cardiff manager said.
"But they just weren't good enough and ready to get in the first team and I don't think they will be in the next few years."
Since that statement, Cardiff have worked diligently to clear a pathway through to the first team for these young players and it's safe to say many of them have taken their chances in a struggling team.
The Bluebirds have not done much right so far this season, but promoting youth is certainly an area of the club which must be applauded.
This season Joel Bagan, Tom Sang, Ciaron Brown, Tom Davies, Tavio d'Almeida, Oliver Denham, Sam Bowen, Kieron Evans, Rubin Colwill and Mark Harris have all turned out for the first team.
Isaak Davies would have been given his debut, too, at the back end of last season. He was due to start against Rotherham on the final day of the campaign, but he suffered a cruel injury on the eve of the match.
Warnock often argued that the Professional Development League system was not beneficial enough for the youngsters. He said it was a useful tool to get players comfortable on the ball but claimed that, defensively and tactically, it was flawed. Instead, he preferred to send the rising stars out on loan to Cymru Premier clubs.
However, during Warnock's reign, Cardiff won the Professional Development League 2 South, the under-18s league competition, in April 2019.
The young Bluebirds played out a semi-final match against Leeds to decide who would go on to face Sheffield Wednesday in the grand final. In that team against the Elland Road outfit were a clutch of names which will now be familiar to City fans.
Joel Bagan, Isaak Davies, Sam Bowen and Kieron Evans all played, while Rubin Colwill was even on the bench.
They did, however, eventually lose the final against the Owls 3-2.
There were players Warnock liked. He gave Mark Harris his debut and before his exit two years ago he was quietly confident Joel Bagan had what it takes to push through, but the manager always favoured experience and that was of course a hindrance to the youth of the club trying to break into the senior setup.
No one is suggesting all of these players will now go on to be top Championship footballers, either. There are always be quite a who impress but then fade.
But given the number of youngsters who have been given their opportunity this term, there is enough to suggest that some will go on to have positive careers in the game, two or three at least.
Just this week, Ciaron Brown, Rubin Colwill and Mark Harris jetted off for senior international duty, while Joel Bagan, Sam Bowen, Isaak Davies and Tom Davies all played at youth level for their countries.
In an ironic twist of events, Warnock actually had a cheeky bid turned down for Ciaron Brown just this summer.
Given what has happened in the 12 months since Warnock made that claim, one would like to think that the landscape has shifted and a number of Cardiff youngsters have proven they have what it takes to cut it at this level in the years to come.
Naturally, some will drop off the radar, but many are beginning to hold their own, too. Colwill's match-winning double against Nottingham Forest, Bowen's recent displays and Harris' outings for Wales all spring to mind.
There is genuine hope that Cardiff can be more self-sustaining in the years to come.
As always, they will need experienced talent in and around them to coax them through, but the Bluebirds have the bones of a good young team sprouting through now. That has not been the case in recent years.
Credit must be given to the club for implementing a structure in which these young players can strive. Neil Harris was instrumental in that and Mick McCarthy has carried it on and is now reaping the rewards.
Those appointments within the academy, too, such as recruitment chief Kevin Beadell and head of coaching David Hughes, have helped with that as the club doubled down on their desire to force down the average age of the squad and ramp up its value.
Finally, the players themselves must be praised for showing they can make the step up to the first team. In doing so, they are quietly proving to the old first-team boss that they are good enough to make an impact and can save the club millions in the process.
Absolutely brilliant to see finally a couple of great future players, But No way are 10 all going to be quality Championship players.
Did Neil Warnock get it wrong?
Has Mick McCarthy got it right?
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=145418
The blunt Neil Warnock statement that may have proved wrong as Cardiff City plot new path? ?
Mick McCarthy has brought ten younger players in to the 24 first team squad and is now reaping the rewards of playing youngsters.
The former Bluebirds boss spoke about players coming through Cardiff's youth system during his time at the club
By Glen Williams
Thursday 14th October 2021
Middlesbrough manager and former Cardiff City boss Neil Warnock (Image: Nick Potts/PA Wire)
Neil Warnock did almost everything right during his brilliant three-year reign as Cardiff City manager.
He united the club with its fan base, assembled an exciting squad which achieved promotion to the Premier League and very nearly stayed in the top flight the year after.
He will go down as a legend in these parts and rightly so.
If there is one blot on his copybook, though, it is his record with bringing through youth in the Welsh capital?
The now Middlesbrough boss was quizzed on that aspect of his Bluebirds tenure a year ago, while speaking on BBC 5 Live, and his assessment of the youngsters sprouting through was pretty blunt.
NEIL WARNOCK:
"I was criticised a little bit at Cardiff about the under-23s," the former Cardiff manager said.
"But they just weren't good enough and ready to get in the first team and I don't think they will be in the next few years."
Since that statement, Cardiff have worked diligently to clear a pathway through to the first team for these young players and it's safe to say many of them have taken their chances in a struggling team.
The Bluebirds have not done much right so far this season, but promoting youth is certainly an area of the club which must be applauded.
This season Joel Bagan, Tom Sang, Ciaron Brown, Tom Davies, Tavio d'Almeida, Oliver Denham, Sam Bowen, Kieron Evans, Rubin Colwill and Mark Harris have all turned out for the first team.
Isaak Davies would have been given his debut, too, at the back end of last season. He was due to start against Rotherham on the final day of the campaign, but he suffered a cruel injury on the eve of the match.
Warnock often argued that the Professional Development League system was not beneficial enough for the youngsters. He said it was a useful tool to get players comfortable on the ball but claimed that, defensively and tactically, it was flawed. Instead, he preferred to send the rising stars out on loan to Cymru Premier clubs.
However, during Warnock's reign, Cardiff won the Professional Development League 2 South, the under-18s league competition, in April 2019.
The young Bluebirds played out a semi-final match against Leeds to decide who would go on to face Sheffield Wednesday in the grand final. In that team against the Elland Road outfit were a clutch of names which will now be familiar to City fans.
Joel Bagan, Isaak Davies, Sam Bowen and Kieron Evans all played, while Rubin Colwill was even on the bench.
They did, however, eventually lose the final against the Owls 3-2.
There were players Warnock liked. He gave Mark Harris his debut and before his exit two years ago he was quietly confident Joel Bagan had what it takes to push through, but the manager always favoured experience and that was of course a hindrance to the youth of the club trying to break into the senior setup.
No one is suggesting all of these players will now go on to be top Championship footballers, either. There are always be quite a who impress but then fade.
But given the number of youngsters who have been given their opportunity this term, there is enough to suggest that some will go on to have positive careers in the game, two or three at least.
Just this week, Ciaron Brown, Rubin Colwill and Mark Harris jetted off for senior international duty, while Joel Bagan, Sam Bowen, Isaak Davies and Tom Davies all played at youth level for their countries.
In an ironic twist of events, Warnock actually had a cheeky bid turned down for Ciaron Brown just this summer.
Given what has happened in the 12 months since Warnock made that claim, one would like to think that the landscape has shifted and a number of Cardiff youngsters have proven they have what it takes to cut it at this level in the years to come.
Naturally, some will drop off the radar, but many are beginning to hold their own, too. Colwill's match-winning double against Nottingham Forest, Bowen's recent displays and Harris' outings for Wales all spring to mind.
There is genuine hope that Cardiff can be more self-sustaining in the years to come.
As always, they will need experienced talent in and around them to coax them through, but the Bluebirds have the bones of a good young team sprouting through now. That has not been the case in recent years.
Credit must be given to the club for implementing a structure in which these young players can strive. Neil Harris was instrumental in that and Mick McCarthy has carried it on and is now reaping the rewards.
Those appointments within the academy, too, such as recruitment chief Kevin Beadell and head of coaching David Hughes, have helped with that as the club doubled down on their desire to force down the average age of the squad and ramp up its value.
Finally, the players themselves must be praised for showing they can make the step up to the first team. In doing so, they are quietly proving to the old first-team boss that they are good enough to make an impact and can save the club millions in the process.
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Re: “ Did Neil Warnock get it wrong?? “
Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:49 pm
I think Warnock got it right. Bigger squad to choose from and better players in front of them. Now McCarthy has got a bare squad and hasn’t really got an option not to play the youngsters.
Re: “ Did Neil Warnock get it wrong?? “
Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:51 pm
It's great to see youngsters come through as Annis says but I'd be happier if I thought that it was part of a genuine attempt to integrate the very best talents from the academy on a gradual basis.
To bring one or two of the best through at a time whilst also identifying areas where the team needs strengthening and buying or loaning appropriately (huge fees would not be needed for this) would be a strategy that would be acceptable to most I would imagine.
However, the apparent unwillingness to buy or loan any experienced players and the number of youngsters being "fast tracked" into the first team squad and first team seems to me to be much more due to cost cutting than any genuine desire to see that the youngsters are integrated properly into the squad.
I'm not sure that at the moment the club is "reaping the benefits" of all these youngsters. Hopefully in the future some or indeed all of them will turn into the players we hope they will but that is some way off. At the moment they are learning their trade at a club which, make no mistake, is in trouble at the foot of the table.
That in itself could be a hindrance in their development.
To bring one or two of the best through at a time whilst also identifying areas where the team needs strengthening and buying or loaning appropriately (huge fees would not be needed for this) would be a strategy that would be acceptable to most I would imagine.
However, the apparent unwillingness to buy or loan any experienced players and the number of youngsters being "fast tracked" into the first team squad and first team seems to me to be much more due to cost cutting than any genuine desire to see that the youngsters are integrated properly into the squad.
I'm not sure that at the moment the club is "reaping the benefits" of all these youngsters. Hopefully in the future some or indeed all of them will turn into the players we hope they will but that is some way off. At the moment they are learning their trade at a club which, make no mistake, is in trouble at the foot of the table.
That in itself could be a hindrance in their development.
Re: “ Did Neil Warnock get it wrong?? “
Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:08 pm
davids wrote:It's great to see youngsters come through as Annis says but I'd be happier if I thought that it was part of a genuine attempt to integrate the very best talents from the academy on a gradual basis.
To bring one or two of the best through at a time whilst also identifying areas where the team needs strengthening and buying or loaning appropriately (huge fees would not be needed for this) would be a strategy that would be acceptable to most I would imagine.
However, the apparent unwillingness to buy or loan any experienced players and the number of youngsters being "fast tracked" into the first team squad and first team seems to me to be much more due to cost cutting than any genuine desire to see that the youngsters are integrated properly into the squad.
I'm not sure that at the moment the club is "reaping the benefits" of all these youngsters. Hopefully in the future some or indeed all of them will turn into the players we hope they will but that is some way off. At the moment they are learning their trade at a club which, make no mistake, is in trouble at the foot of the table.
That in itself could be a hindrance in their development.
The other hindrance i feel is MM as his type of football is not conducive to developing youngsters .....and that maybe is why we find ourselves at bottom end of league....not dure about to many youngsters as only 3 of them play normally and wouldn't say they are not capable at this level but do doubt their ability to last a full season way we play only need to look at moore and him being knackered running back for for 90mins to no avail.
Re: “ Did Neil Warnock get it wrong?? “
Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:25 pm
davids wrote:It's great to see youngsters come through as Annis says but I'd be happier if I thought that it was part of a genuine attempt to integrate the very best talents from the academy on a gradual basis.
To bring one or two of the best through at a time whilst also identifying areas where the team needs strengthening and buying or loaning appropriately (huge fees would not be needed for this) would be a strategy that would be acceptable to most I would imagine.
However, the apparent unwillingness to buy or loan any experienced players and the number of youngsters being "fast tracked" into the first team squad and first team seems to me to be much more due to cost cutting than any genuine desire to see that the youngsters are integrated properly into the squad.
I'm not sure that at the moment the club is "reaping the benefits" of all these youngsters. Hopefully in the future some or indeed all of them will turn into the players we hope they will but that is some way off. At the moment they are learning their trade at a club which, make no mistake, is in trouble at the foot of the table.
That in itself could be a hindrance in their development.
Agreed, there is no point just throwing the youngsters in without the right experience around them. I like what other clubs, including Swansea, are doing by bringing in experienced pros into the U23 set-up. Why aren’t we doing more to bring ex-players like Earnie (one of if not the most natural finisher I’ve seen down the city), Ledley etc to show the youngsters what to expect, especially as they are City fans.
It’s as if these players are being set up to fail. Colwill will be sold to someone like Coventry or Bristol City in a year or so where he will thrive in a system that utilises his strengths.
Re: “ Did Neil Warnock get it wrong?? “
Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:42 pm
It's about balance, Warnock was too risk averse to ever give the youngsters a real go.
Let's be honest he could/should have been introducing them with the odd 20 mins at the end of games even 3 years ago. He had the luxury of a really experienced squad and the youngsters would have benefited from being alongside them. I'm sure that would have been a frustration for Bellamy because he was saying that he had a really top group that were not far off the first team.
McCarthy is now forced into introducing too many of them at the same time. Some of that is down to money but also it goes back to the Warnock time meaning that we're now playing catch up in terms of testing them in the first team to assess whether they have what it takes or not.
I would be amazed if all of those in and around the first team make it at this level. As others have said, if we get 2 or 3 who are good enough that would be a major success.
What is encouraging in that there are a couple who still haven't featured in the Championship squads who look as good, if not better. Zimba and Patten being standouts but others too.
The next season or two will be make or break for these guys.
Let's be honest he could/should have been introducing them with the odd 20 mins at the end of games even 3 years ago. He had the luxury of a really experienced squad and the youngsters would have benefited from being alongside them. I'm sure that would have been a frustration for Bellamy because he was saying that he had a really top group that were not far off the first team.
McCarthy is now forced into introducing too many of them at the same time. Some of that is down to money but also it goes back to the Warnock time meaning that we're now playing catch up in terms of testing them in the first team to assess whether they have what it takes or not.
I would be amazed if all of those in and around the first team make it at this level. As others have said, if we get 2 or 3 who are good enough that would be a major success.
What is encouraging in that there are a couple who still haven't featured in the Championship squads who look as good, if not better. Zimba and Patten being standouts but others too.
The next season or two will be make or break for these guys.
Re: “ Did Neil Warnock get it wrong?? “
Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:25 pm
GaerBlue wrote:davids wrote:It's great to see youngsters come through as Annis says but I'd be happier if I thought that it was part of a genuine attempt to integrate the very best talents from the academy on a gradual basis.
To bring one or two of the best through at a time whilst also identifying areas where the team needs strengthening and buying or loaning appropriately (huge fees would not be needed for this) would be a strategy that would be acceptable to most I would imagine.
However, the apparent unwillingness to buy or loan any experienced players and the number of youngsters being "fast tracked" into the first team squad and first team seems to me to be much more due to cost cutting than any genuine desire to see that the youngsters are integrated properly into the squad.
I'm not sure that at the moment the club is "reaping the benefits" of all these youngsters. Hopefully in the future some or indeed all of them will turn into the players we hope they will but that is some way off. At the moment they are learning their trade at a club which, make no mistake, is in trouble at the foot of the table.
That in itself could be a hindrance in their development.
Agreed, there is no point just throwing the youngsters in without the right experience around them. I like what other clubs, including Swansea, are doing by bringing in experienced pros into the U23 set-up. Why aren’t we doing more to bring ex-players like Earnie (one of if not the most natural finisher I’ve seen down the city), Ledley etc to show the youngsters what to expect, especially as they are City fans.
It’s as if these players are being set up to fail. Colwill will be sold to someone like Coventry or Bristol City in a year or so where he will thrive in a system that utilises his strengths.
This :^^^^^
Re: “ Did Neil Warnock get it wrong?? “
Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:33 pm
I am all for developing a "conveyer belt" approach by having a top-grade coaching set up for the youngsters, but that still doesn't mean that they will all make it with us. While Mick is having to use more youngsters, I don't think that his style is great for developing them, however good they might be to start with.
When Neil Warnock was manager the problem for youngsters was that they were competing with a squad that was fighting for promotion or in the Premiership, so the step up was very much bigger.
When Neil Warnock was manager the problem for youngsters was that they were competing with a squad that was fighting for promotion or in the Premiership, so the step up was very much bigger.
Re: “ Did Neil Warnock get it wrong?? “
Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:49 pm
Is it VT aim to develop them get them playing in Championship and then sell them on to get his money back?
Re: “ Did Neil Warnock get it wrong?? “
Thu Oct 14, 2021 4:23 pm
Warnock delivered we were in a dreadful spot he turned it around and exceeded expectation by getting us up .
Mick has also got it right by getting the club up and running after Harris .
Both have suffered from the lack of transfer funding ,Mick more so .
Warnock needed more when we got promoted.
Mick needs midfielder to supplement the youngsters
Mick has also got it right by getting the club up and running after Harris .
Both have suffered from the lack of transfer funding ,Mick more so .
Warnock needed more when we got promoted.
Mick needs midfielder to supplement the youngsters
Re: “ Did Neil Warnock get it wrong?? “
Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:30 pm
1980s Bluebird wrote:Is it VT aim to develop them get them playing in Championship and then sell them on to get his money back?
I think so.
Re: “ Did Neil Warnock get it wrong?? “
Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:37 pm
Bakedalasker wrote:1980s Bluebird wrote:Is it VT aim to develop them get them playing in Championship and then sell them on to get his money back?
I think so.
Bit of a waste of time be surprised get 6m for the 3 of them that are in 1st team at moment...then need to try get another couple in 1st team and try sell them? If of course we are not relegated before manage to sell them then value is zilch! They will only have value if we are doing well otherwise worth peanuts in context of paying tan back.
Re: “ Did Neil Warnock get it wrong?? “
Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:57 pm
by pembroke allan » Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:37 pm
Bakedalasker wrote:
1980s Bluebird wrote:
Is it VT aim to develop them get them playing in Championship and then sell them on to get his money back?
I think so.
Bit of a waste of time be surprised get 6m for the 3 of them that are in 1st team at moment...then need to try get another couple in 1st team and try sell them? If of course we are not relegated before manage to sell them then value is zilch! They will only have value if we are doing well otherwise worth peanuts in context of paying tan back.
I thought that I had read on the forum a while ago that we were using so many of our youngsters this year because of the FFP rules in order to avoid any points deductions? As I don't know that much about the FFP rules, is that the case or not?
Re: “ Did Neil Warnock get it wrong?? “
Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:02 pm
Mike Strinati wrote:I think Warnock got it right. Bigger squad to choose from and better players in front of them. Now McCarthy has got a bare squad and hasn’t really got an option not to play the youngsters.
Results bare that out on both fronts...
Re: “ Did Neil Warnock get it wrong?? “
Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:25 pm
Scoularite wrote:by pembroke allan » Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:37 pm
Bakedalasker wrote:
1980s Bluebird wrote:
Is it VT aim to develop them get them playing in Championship and then sell them on to get his money back?
I think so.
Bit of a waste of time be surprised get 6m for the 3 of them that are in 1st team at moment...then need to try get another couple in 1st team and try sell them? If of course we are not relegated before manage to sell them then value is zilch! They will only have value if we are doing well otherwise worth peanuts in context of paying tan back.
I thought that I had read on the forum a while ago that we were using so many of our youngsters this year because of the FFP rules in order to avoid any points deductions? As I don't know that much about the FFP rules, is that the case or not?
Depends on what you believe ..... we are certainly cost cutting but only way to make club fall inside ffp is not to have players on our books like Tomlin ? Playing youngsters got nothing to do with ffp... ffp is to do with wages ect against income so getting rid Tomlin helped as did the others going at beginning of season....... but still got other big money signings on books.... youngsters are on peanuts if you believe what was said on here so that's only reason it helps ffp .....
Re: “ Did Neil Warnock get it wrong?? “
Thu Oct 14, 2021 10:56 pm
by pembroke allan » Thu Oct 14, 2021 10:25 pm
Depends on what you believe ..... we are certainly cost cutting but only way to make club fall inside ffp is not to have players on our books like Tomlin ? Playing youngsters got nothing to do with ffp... ffp is to do with wages ect against income so getting rid Tomlin helped as did the others going at beginning of season....... but still got other big money signings on books.... youngsters are on peanuts if you believe what was said on here so that's only reason it helps ffp .....
So presumably Mick's squad has had to have the youngsters in it because of ffp, but with Tomlin going we may have a chance to bring in more creativity as long as paying less than for Tomlin?
Re: “ Did Neil Warnock get it wrong?? “
Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:15 am
Scoularite wrote:by pembroke allan » Thu Oct 14, 2021 10:25 pm
Depends on what you believe ..... we are certainly cost cutting but only way to make club fall inside ffp is not to have players on our books like Tomlin ? Playing youngsters got nothing to do with ffp... ffp is to do with wages ect against income so getting rid Tomlin helped as did the others going at beginning of season....... but still got other big money signings on books.... youngsters are on peanuts if you believe what was said on here so that's only reason it helps ffp .....
So presumably Mick's squad has had to have the youngsters in it because of ffp, but with Tomlin going we may have a chance to bring in more creativity as long as paying less than for Tomlin?
No we had to bring them in because we got rid of several players at start season and didn't replace all of them so was short of players but the plan was to give youngsters a chance so as not to need to bring in more expensive players......tomlin going helps balance the books just like at end season most out contract players will go and cheaper option brought in... but because of way football finances are due to covid guess clubs have initiative and can set their own wages for new players days of 20k a week players are gone for vast majority of clubs..
Re: “ Did Neil Warnock get it wrong?? “
Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:14 am
Looking at it so far Warnock got it right if he was still in place as our manager maybe you would see a few more playing but lets be honest here McCarthy had no choice to bring in some of these players otherwise we wouldnt have a squad.
How was it cheeky that Warnock to bid for Brown after a friendly game I remember Warnock saying Brown looked a good prospect and as loan move will bring him on but other players like Rubin and co was not even thought of in our first team as it was 3 years ago.
How was it cheeky that Warnock to bid for Brown after a friendly game I remember Warnock saying Brown looked a good prospect and as loan move will bring him on but other players like Rubin and co was not even thought of in our first team as it was 3 years ago.