Thu Mar 21, 2024 5:38 pm
Thu Mar 21, 2024 6:05 pm
Thu Mar 21, 2024 6:11 pm
Thu Mar 21, 2024 6:28 pm
Thu Mar 21, 2024 6:46 pm
Sven wrote:This is just the beginning and uncooperative FC Nantes are crying 'foul play'
It's interesting to read Cardiff City FC (nee Vincent Tan) have adjusted their 'claim' by c.£30m...
I am sure they will have done this 'acting on advice' but wonder if (at least part of) it is down tbe the recent insurance settlement...?
Interesting times ahead but I'll be glad when the whole sorry saga is over...!
Thu Mar 21, 2024 6:56 pm
Paul Keevil wrote:Sven wrote:This is just the beginning and uncooperative FC Nantes are crying 'foul play'
It's interesting to read Cardiff City FC (nee Vincent Tan) have adjusted their 'claim' by c.£30m...
I am sure they will have done this 'acting on advice' but wonder if (at least part of) it is down tbe the recent insurance settlement...?
Interesting times ahead but I'll be glad when the whole sorry saga is over...!
It could be something as simple as had we stayed up, and received £100m, then arguably we would have lost 30% of that in tax - so our actual loss was more likely to be £70m
Thu Mar 21, 2024 7:00 pm
Paul Keevil wrote:Sven wrote:This is just the beginning and uncooperative FC Nantes are crying 'foul play'
It's interesting to read Cardiff City FC (nee Vincent Tan) have adjusted their 'claim' by c.£30m...
I am sure they will have done this 'acting on advice' but wonder if (at least part of) it is down tbe the recent insurance settlement...?
Interesting times ahead but I'll be glad when the whole sorry saga is over...!
It could be something as simple as had we stayed up, and received £100m, then arguably we would have lost 30% of that in tax - so our actual loss was more likely to be £70m
Fri Mar 22, 2024 10:02 am
Fri Mar 22, 2024 1:00 pm
Simplesimon wrote:Paul Keevil wrote:Sven wrote:This is just the beginning and uncooperative FC Nantes are crying 'foul play'
It's interesting to read Cardiff City FC (nee Vincent Tan) have adjusted their 'claim' by c.£30m...
I am sure they will have done this 'acting on advice' but wonder if (at least part of) it is down tbe the recent insurance settlement...?
Interesting times ahead but I'll be glad when the whole sorry saga is over...!
It could be something as simple as had we stayed up, and received £100m, then arguably we would have lost 30% of that in tax - so our actual loss was more likely to be £70m
Do you think it could also be linked to winning costs if the court finds in their favour but at a lower figure than the £100m?
Fri Mar 22, 2024 1:20 pm
Fri Mar 22, 2024 1:32 pm
Fri Mar 22, 2024 1:39 pm
Paul Keevil wrote:Yes and then how much CCFC get.
My view:
Liability: I think we will succeed here because we can prove a connection between WM, the work he did, and Nantes
Quantum: Or damages - I wouldn't be surprised if we were awarded somewhere between £30m to £50m.
Fri Mar 22, 2024 2:03 pm
Fri Mar 22, 2024 2:10 pm
Bakedalasker wrote:This connection feels the weakest link to me.
Can the Southampton case be considered in this jurisdiction? If yes then it will strengthen our case.
Fri Mar 22, 2024 2:22 pm
Paul Keevil wrote:Sven wrote:This is just the beginning and uncooperative FC Nantes are crying 'foul play'
It's interesting to read Cardiff City FC (nee Vincent Tan) have adjusted their 'claim' by c.£30m...
I am sure they will have done this 'acting on advice' but wonder if (at least part of) it is down tbe the recent insurance settlement...?
Interesting times ahead but I'll be glad when the whole sorry saga is over...!
It could be something as simple as had we stayed up, and received £100m, then arguably we would have lost 30% of that in tax - so our actual loss was more likely to be £70m
Fri Mar 22, 2024 7:54 pm
Paul Keevil wrote:Simplesimon wrote:Paul Keevil wrote:Sven wrote:This is just the beginning and uncooperative FC Nantes are crying 'foul play'
It's interesting to read Cardiff City FC (nee Vincent Tan) have adjusted their 'claim' by c.£30m...
I am sure they will have done this 'acting on advice' but wonder if (at least part of) it is down tbe the recent insurance settlement...?
Interesting times ahead but I'll be glad when the whole sorry saga is over...!
It could be something as simple as had we stayed up, and received £100m, then arguably we would have lost 30% of that in tax - so our actual loss was more likely to be £70m
Do you think it could also be linked to winning costs if the court finds in their favour but at a lower figure than the £100m?
Costs and consequences are always a part of it.
The way I see this panning out is as follows.
Ownership Of Sala
This clearly cannot be an issue anymore. Sala has been determined to be our player
What if we didn't own Sala
If we didn't own Sala then we could not argue that we potentially lost Premier League Revenue due to someone else's negligence.
The fact that we can pursue this is only because it has been established that we did own him.
How can Nantes be liable & What is Vicarious Liability
The issue of Vicarious Liability is complex, in law, but to explain it in simple terms if a person (WM) is acting on behalf of another, in the capacity of Employee, Servant of Agent of say company (N), then Company "N" is vicariously liable for the actions of that person ("WM") should anything go wrong
Does there have to be some sort of previous history as an agent
Yes, and a good example of this was the Bob Higgins Football Academy (Football Abuse) case that I was involved in some years back. Bob Higgins ran both the Southampton Youth team (Under 13-16) and also ran his football academy. Many of the kids that played in his academy went on to play for either Southampton Youth Academy or in some instances their Premier League side. I can't name names, for obvious reasons, but if you look at a Southampton Youth team circa 1985 you will see the sort of names I am talking about. Not everyone was abused but several in that photo were.
Southampton argued that they were not being abused whilst he was working for them but it was decided that because of the strong connection between BH and Southampton, and the extra element of coaching, they should be one of the Defendants.
So how does this apply to Cardiff, WM and Nantes
Well, history shows us that WM and Nantes had a reasonably strong working relationship. I have heard someone else suggest "that they were both as bent as each other" but for legal reasons, I do not comment on that. Anyway, part of the work that WM did for Nantes was to organise travel. Now it doesn't matter whether that was by car, train or aeroplane - the fact is that he organised travel - in addition to the commission work he did for representing players.
In our situation, he was involved in the transfer and he was also involved in the organisation of travel (to some extent) but was involved nonetheless.
Accordingly, I do not doubt that Nantes will be proven to be vicariously liable for his actions. No doubt whatsoever.
How does the criminal case apply
This is good for us. If a person is found guilty in criminal proceedings (Burden="Beyond reasonable doubt") then they are almost certain to be found negligent in civil proceedings (Burden="Balance of Probabilities).
Liability, Negligence & Damages
So as WM was proven to be guilty in criminal proceedings he will almost certainly be found negligent (Same as guilty) in civil proceedings. If he is negligent then Nantes will also be negligent as they will be vicariously liable for his actions.
If Liability is established what then
Once the issue of liability is decided then all that remains is "How much will we get" - This is called Damages or Quantum
What will we get
I suspect that this is why the club are employing the services of a forensic statistician. He will provide a report to the Court and give his professional opinion as to within what range of games would Sala have played, scored and contributed to the end of the season's position. These reports are often very influential.
What will the forensic statistician look at
They will have their databases and research but I suspect he will look at:
a) How many strikers have been signed by Premier League Clubs from abroad
b) How often did they play in their first 6 months
c) How often did they score in their first 6 months
d) What were the differences in points before his arrival and after his arrival?
He will also look at Brighton being only two points above us.
So if he establishes that, as a result of Sala joining us, we would "on the balance of probabilities" have accrued an extra 3 points in the 2018/2019 season then it also follows that we will be successful on the loss of revenue side.
How much will that loss of revenue be
This will be for a forensic accountant and the court to decide with the assistance of the forensic statistician
But it will be a lot. Cardiff have recently restricted their claim to £ 70 million but even if the court decides that its only half of that then they will be fully vindicated in pursuing this claim.
Can they lose
It is possible but I do not think it is likely at this stage.
Legal cases are decided on Liability Negligence and Damages. I think Nantes already accept that they are "on the can" for this one and that they are vicariously liable for WM actions. (Their insurers will probably pay out not Nantes themselves).
Personally, I think it is just a case now of "How Much".
These are just my personal views, and I could be wrong, but this is my assessment. I think we will be awarded somewhere between £30-50m. That's my best guess.
Fri Mar 22, 2024 9:13 pm
Sat Mar 23, 2024 3:07 pm
Paul Keevil wrote:Yes part of me suspects a negotiated settlement. But, because of the amount, I am in two minds as to whether Nantes would prefer a court decision.
Sun Mar 24, 2024 8:55 am
piledriver64 wrote:Paul Keevil wrote:Yes part of me suspects a negotiated settlement. But, because of the amount, I am in two minds as to whether Nantes would prefer a court decision.
I would have thought their insurers may want that court decision even more than Nantes but, again, if they see this as a case that will fail in any event then they may be just willing to pay out in the negotiated settlement.
Mon Mar 25, 2024 9:57 pm