This SAM/LANGSTONE business......

As Carl & Annis are speaking to Sam regular, why don't they get Sam to post on here on what he believes the situation is and what he is owed. And before anybody says its not business etiquette, remember neither is it right to post one side of the story. Fed up of second guessing who owes what and when.

We will be the only club to get promoted to the promised land and lose money by the time we pay everybody their bonuses on going up.....AND FOR THAT REASON ALONE DJ WILL NOT WALK AWAY FROM CARDIFF EVEN IF HE WAS OFFERED THE MAN U JOB

As Carl & Annis are speaking to Sam regular, why don't they get Sam to post on here on what he believes the situation is and what he is owed. And before anybody says its not business etiquette, remember neither is it right to post one side of the story. Fed up of second guessing who owes what and when.

We will be the only club to get promoted to the promised land and lose money by the time we pay everybody their bonuses on going up.....AND FOR THAT REASON ALONE DJ WILL NOT WALK AWAY FROM CARDIFF EVEN IF HE WAS OFFERED THE MAN U JOB

I don't think Langston's legal representatives will be too keen on that suggestion.

As Carl & Annis are speaking to Sam regular, why don't they get Sam to post on here on what he believes the situation is and what he is owed. And before anybody says its not business etiquette, remember neither is it right to post one side of the story. Fed up of second guessing who owes what and when.

We will be the only club to get promoted to the promised land and lose money by the time we pay everybody their bonuses on going up.....AND FOR THAT REASON ALONE DJ WILL NOT WALK AWAY FROM CARDIFF EVEN IF HE WAS OFFERED THE MAN U JOB

Read this and it will give you a better idea;

http://clients.squareeye.com/uploads/oec/CCFCjmnt.pdf

As Carl & Annis are speaking to Sam regular, why don't they get Sam to post on here on what he believes the situation is and what he is owed. And before anybody says its not business etiquette, remember neither is it right to post one side of the story. Fed up of second guessing who owes what and when.

We will be the only club to get promoted to the promised land and lose money by the time we pay everybody their bonuses on going up.....AND FOR THAT REASON ALONE DJ WILL NOT WALK AWAY FROM CARDIFF EVEN IF HE WAS OFFERED THE MAN U JOB

I would not worry about it and concentrate focus on the football.

As Carl & Annis are speaking to Sam regular, why don't they get Sam to post on here on what he believes the situation is and what he is owed. And before anybody says its not business etiquette, remember neither is it right to post one side of the story. Fed up of second guessing who owes what and when.

We will be the only club to get promoted to the promised land and lose money by the time we pay everybody their bonuses on going up.....AND FOR THAT REASON ALONE DJ WILL NOT WALK AWAY FROM CARDIFF EVEN IF HE WAS OFFERED THE MAN U JOB

I would not worry about it and concentrate focus on the football.

Welcome U-jiun.

The problem is we've had one thing after another to worry about with our clubs finances over the past 30 years.

its made many of us more aware of football finances than any of us ever wanted.

As Carl & Annis are speaking to Sam regular, why don't they get Sam to post on here on what he believes the situation is and what he is owed. And before anybody says its not business etiquette, remember neither is it right to post one side of the story. Fed up of second guessing who owes what and when.

We will be the only club to get promoted to the promised land and lose money by the time we pay everybody their bonuses on going up.....AND FOR THAT REASON ALONE DJ WILL NOT WALK AWAY FROM CARDIFF EVEN IF HE WAS OFFERED THE MAN U JOB

I would not worry about it and concentrate focus on the football.

Welcome U-jiun.

The problem is we've had one thing after another to worry about with our clubs finances over the past 30 years.

its made many of us more aware of football finances than any of us ever wanted.

Well now you can rest in fears and concentrate on football. 30 years a long time of fear.

As Carl & Annis are speaking to Sam regular, why don't they get Sam to post on here on what he believes the situation is and what he is owed. And before anybody says its not business etiquette, remember neither is it right to post one side of the story. Fed up of second guessing who owes what and when.

We will be the only club to get promoted to the promised land and lose money by the time we pay everybody their bonuses on going up.....AND FOR THAT REASON ALONE DJ WILL NOT WALK AWAY FROM CARDIFF EVEN IF HE WAS OFFERED THE MAN U JOB

Read this and it will give you a better idea;

http://clients.squareeye.com/uploads/oec/CCFCjmnt.pdf

I haven't read that document for a while and it is interesting to go over it again. It is a summary judgement which is completely different to a full trial, as Judge Briggs is working on 'assumed facts' rather than proven facts. There is also a very interesting last paragraph where JB questions the intentions of the draftsman to the agreement document (the clubs solicitors) which might be interesting if this matter ever ended up in court.

As Carl & Annis are speaking to Sam regular, why don't they get Sam to post on here on what he believes the situation is and what he is owed. And before anybody says its not business etiquette, remember neither is it right to post one side of the story. Fed up of second guessing who owes what and when.

We will be the only club to get promoted to the promised land and lose money by the time we pay everybody their bonuses on going up.....AND FOR THAT REASON ALONE DJ WILL NOT WALK AWAY FROM CARDIFF EVEN IF HE WAS OFFERED THE MAN U JOB

Read this and it will give you a better idea;

http://clients.squareeye.com/uploads/oec/CCFCjmnt.pdf

I haven't read that document for a while and it is interesting to go over it again. It is a summary judgement which is completely different to a full trial, as Judge Briggs is working on 'assumed facts' rather than proven facts. There is also a very interesting last paragraph where JB questions the intentions of the draftsman to the agreement document (the clubs solicitors) which might be interesting if this matter ever ended up in court.

Well JB did leave the door open for Langston to test the matter in court but lets face it 3 years on they haven't gone through that door.

However if you look at the detail it is clear that Loan Note 1 is no longer valid having been superceded by Loan note 2 the details of which were required by Cardiff County Council to be signed off by both the club and Langston before committing themselves to the stadium project.

It is also clear from the detail that ALL interest on loan note 1 was written off prior to being replaced by loan note 2, imo it is therefore fanciful for SH to believe that document to be "In Play" and with interest now to be £40m.

It is also clear from the document that interest from the principal sum (£15m) on loan note 2 is simple interest and not compound, the rate of interest is not stated but common sense would suggest that it is no more than 7% the stated interest in loan note 1. What we don't know from the information given is if the interest rate is a set figure or variable at a set %point above the BOE base rate.

Another interesting point from the detail is that no interest or repayment of the principal sum is allowed without the express permission of Cardiff County Council, any repayment before 2016 that is, this is something which is rarely discussed but is valid still the same.

In relation to the £9m Naming Rights it should be understood by all that this is interest free and after October 2016 any outstanding sum remaining is written off so this ishardly a debt which would worry the club that much. This was secured by offering Langston a £5m Promotion bonus (JB describes it as the Quid Pro Quo) so again this is not a debt until such time that the club gets promoted to the PL. If we are before 2016 it is of course payable probably immediately but certainly not before.

I accept that all of this detail was superceded by the agreement to pay a 1 off £10m before 31st December 2010 as this wasn't done the matter reverts to the previous loan note i.e. loan note 2. IMO the outstanding debt is the principal sum £15m plus any interest which has accrued which at 7% would be approx £1m per year, but is it aset 7% or a variable rate which would probably be set against the BOE base rate in which case the annual inerest would be a lot less.

I agree JB questioned the intentions of the draughtmens of the variation in the original deed but lets face it he also says repeatedly that he believes the club to have a REAL defense against Langstons claim of technical irregularities relating to novation or replacing the club with Cardiff City Stadium as the body responsible for biulding the stadium.

Let Langston take their chances I say as I believe in a full hearing that as JB says repeatedly Common Sense would apply and the club would win.

But what do I know I'm not a bllod sucking lawyer

As Carl & Annis are speaking to Sam regular, why don't they get Sam to post on here on what he believes the situation is and what he is owed. And before anybody says its not business etiquette, remember neither is it right to post one side of the story. Fed up of second guessing who owes what and when.

Carl posts on here Sam's side so whats the point of getting Sam to do it as well

Catleblue. Thats pretty much what I was saying on Weds/Thurs. Only in a longer, more detailed, probably more understandable way with less typos

We can all speculate and pontificate about what is or isnt going to happen. There
are fellers putting across their theories about it all who are obviously clued
up about all this stuff. But nobody on this messageboard is as clued up as
Vincent Tans legal team. Nobody on this (or the other) messageboard has hold of
all the facts. Nobody really knows what Sams bottom line is, and nobody knows
what VT is willing to give.

My very basic take is:

Cardiff City Football Club now have a very powerful man at the helm who will not
give away 1p that he doesnt have to. Sam is being very reasonable about the whole
thing. But he doesnt really have a lot of choice does he?

As U-Juin says... dont worry bout it my friends Cardiff City is finally in safe hands!!

Catleblue. Thats pretty much what I was saying on Weds/Thurs. Only in a longer, more detailed, probably more understandable way with less typos

Do you mean Bllod sucking lawyers

As Carl & Annis are speaking to Sam regular, why don't they get Sam to post on here on what he believes the situation is and what he is owed. And before anybody says its not business etiquette, remember neither is it right to post one side of the story. Fed up of second guessing who owes what and when.

We will be the only club to get promoted to the promised land and lose money by the time we pay everybody their bonuses on going up.....AND FOR THAT REASON ALONE DJ WILL NOT WALK AWAY FROM CARDIFF EVEN IF HE WAS OFFERED THE MAN U JOB

Read this and it will give you a better idea;

http://clients.squareeye.com/uploads/oec/CCFCjmnt.pdf

Interesting read that. The words tucked up like a kipper and not a leg to stand on spring to mind

Catleblue. Thats pretty much what I was saying on Weds/Thurs. Only in a longer, more detailed, probably more understandable way with less typos

Do you mean Bllod sucking lawyers

I think my referring to you as catleblue says it all.

Catleblue. Thats pretty much what I was saying on Weds/Thurs. Only in a longer, more detailed, probably more understandable way with less typos

Do you mean Bllod sucking lawyers

I think my referring to you as catleblue says it all.

Doh I'll catch up soon

Well JB did leave the door open for Langston to test the matter in court but lets face it 3 years on they haven't gone through that door.

However if you look at the detail it is clear that Loan Note 1 is no longer valid having been superceded by Loan note 2 the details of which were required by Cardiff County Council to be signed off by both the club and Langston before committing themselves to the stadium project.

It is also clear from the detail that ALL interest on loan note 1 was written off prior to being replaced by loan note 2, imo it is therefore fanciful for SH to believe that document to be "In Play" and with interest now to be £40m.

It is also clear from the document that interest from the principal sum (£15m) on loan note 2 is simple interest and not compound, the rate of interest is not stated but common sense would suggest that it is no more than 7% the stated interest in loan note 1. What we don't know from the information given is if the interest rate is a set figure or variable at a set %point above the BOE base rate.

Another interesting point from the detail is that no interest or repayment of the principal sum is allowed without the express permission of Cardiff County Council, any repayment before 2016 that is, this is something which is rarely discussed but is valid still the same.

In relation to the £9m Naming Rights it should be understood by all that this is interest free and after October 2016 any outstanding sum remaining is written off so this ishardly a debt which would worry the club that much. This was secured by offering Langston a £5m Promotion bonus (JB describes it as the Quid Pro Quo) so again this is not a debt until such time that the club gets promoted to the PL. If we are before 2016 it is of course payable probably immediately but certainly not before.

I accept that all of this detail was superceded by the agreement to pay a 1 off £10m before 31st December 2010 as this wasn't done the matter reverts to the previous loan note i.e. loan note 2. IMO the outstanding debt is the principal sum £15m plus any interest which has accrued which at 7% would be approx £1m per year, but is it aset 7% or a variable rate which would probably be set against the BOE base rate in which case the annual inerest would be a lot less.

I agree JB questioned the intentions of the draughtmens of the variation in the original deed but lets face it he also says repeatedly that he believes the club to have a REAL defense against Langstons claim of technical irregularities relating to novation or replacing the club with Cardiff City Stadium as the body responsible for biulding the stadium.

Let Langston take their chances I say as I believe in a full hearing that as JB says repeatedly Common Sense would apply and the club would win.

But what do I know I'm not a bllod sucking lawyer

The above is a very good summary of the 'summary judgement' which is hard to argue with.

However, there still is the point that the judgement was reached by using 'assumed facts' which haven't been tested in a court of law. It is quite conceivable that Langston still have an ace up their sleeves.

Also I'm not totally convinced about these Emails which seem a very sloppy way of doing business on such an important piece of business and there would be a need as you acknowledge to investigate the intentions of the documents draftsman, as any deliberate intention to mislead would be a fundamental breach of contract.

At some point we've borrowed the money to build the stadium therefore it is obvious that we have to pay it back. Now that we are on a more stable footing why don't we set up a deal to pay it back in installments like normal people do?

The main problem with this deal, and if you remember it was the same with most financial deal that Sam was involved in, was that it was always shrouded in mystery and had a shady edge to it.

I loved the way Sam brought back Pride and Passion back to the club but the way he conducts business deals always appears dodgy to me.

At some point we've borrowed the money to build the stadium therefore it is obvious that we have to pay it back. Now that we are on a more stable footing why don't we set up a deal to pay it back in installments like normal people do?

The main problem with this deal, and if you remember it was the same with most financial deal that Sam was involved in, was that it was always shrouded in mystery and had a shady edge to it.

I loved the way Sam brought back Pride and Passion back to the club but the way he conducts business deals always appears dodgy to me.

No way is it that simple. Firstly we are only financially stable for the moment because of the input of Vincent Tan, so if anyone is to pay back Langston then it would be him.

The trouble is he wasn't the person who borrowed the money in the first place......

At some point we've borrowed the money to build the stadium therefore it is obvious that we have to pay it back. Now that we are on a more stable footing why don't we set up a deal to pay it back in installments like normal people do?

The main problem with this deal, and if you remember it was the same with most financial deal that Sam was involved in, was that it was always shrouded in mystery and had a shady edge to it.

I loved the way Sam brought back Pride and Passion back to the club but the way he conducts business deals always appears dodgy to me.

Your absolutely right as no one questions the fact that we owe Langston money, the debate is about the level of the debt, but in simple terms there will be a day when the club MUST repay Langston £15m plus interest and that will be 2016. I just cannot understand why a simple agreement to pay in installments cannot be set up but then Cardiff County Council insisted that no interest or principal sum payments be made prior to 2016 without their permission. Why? To Protect The Club? Only a very few people will know the answer to that question the rest of us will be left to speculate.

Your absolutely right as no one questions the fact that we owe Langston money, the debate is about the level of the debt, but in simple terms there will be a day when the club MUST repay Langston £15m plus interest and that will be 2016. I just cannot understand why a simple agreement to pay in installments cannot be set up but then Cardiff County Council insisted that no interest or principal sum payments be made prior to 2016 without their permission. Why? To Protect The Club? Only a very few people will know the answer to that question the rest of us will be left to speculate.

I can only assume the Council were guarding against Langston being repaid before the stadium project.

For example it is only recently (April 2010) that funding for the House of Sport was finally obtained (from Steve Borley), even though the Judgement by JB it states that the Council were 'not worried' about the £3.5m funding for the HoS as 'apparently' the cash was already in a Council control account.

Just going slightly off, if Langston did go back to court then surely as a matter of fact they could point to the above as 'clear evidence' that the CDA was not unconditional by 31st May 2007.

Your absolutely right as no one questions the fact that we owe Langston money, the debate is about the level of the debt, but in simple terms there will be a day when the club MUST repay Langston £15m plus interest and that will be 2016. I just cannot understand why a simple agreement to pay in installments cannot be set up but then Cardiff County Council insisted that no interest or principal sum payments be made prior to 2016 without their permission. Why? To Protect The Club? Only a very few people will know the answer to that question the rest of us will be left to speculate.

I can only assume the Council were guarding against Langston being repaid before the stadium project.

For example it is only recently (April 2010) that funding for the House of Sport was finally obtained (from Steve Borley), even though the Judgement by JB it states that the Council were 'not worried' about the £3.5m funding for the HoS as 'apparently' the cash was already in a Council control account.

Just going slightly off, if Langston did go back to court then surely as a matter of fact they could point to the above as 'clear evidence' that the CDA was not unconditional by 31st May 2007.

Langston made that arguement regarding the House of Sport but it was not accepted by JB who dismissed it's relevence because the right to decide satisfaction status or not lay with the Council. Section 9 of his judgement. The crux being that only the Council could decide on the Unconditional Status and was therefore not a matter for the other parties.