Nervous PMG

Have sent one of their employees to the WRU and Cardiff Council to investigate what opportunities would be available if no football club , that's straight up . Strange but true.

what, like if the club went bust?

what, like if the club went bust?

Dunno ..... Wasn't sat in on the conversation lol

It's an interesting subject Daya so good for you for bringing it up.

I've always thought the club/fans should be more concerned with PMG than Sam, as PMG's debt is secured.

Then there's also the argument that PMG, as the largest shareholder, are the club. Get your head round that!

Sorry, a non-story. No info, no back up, no credibility....

IF (and a big one at that) PMG did that, then it would be to 'protect' their own interests in the unlikely event of our former Chairman/Owner taking the club to Court....and winning!!

The Bluebirds will be at the CCS longer than the Blues....

*not largest anymore

Or could be if they are bought out,although seems unlikely although I suppose now the Langston debt has passed Dec PMG are not the prioirty

This is genuine and I have known about it now for a few weeks but thought it would just add to stirring claims etc. they have asked \\\\\allegedly\\\\\\\\\\\\ the WRU what could they do to help maintain income streams at OUR stadium in the likeliehood that the football club pull out? what the f**k is all that about, and is the tail wagging the dog yet again, ain't they made enough out of the project yet, or is there a case for drip feeding the cash cow forever?

This is genuine and I have known about it now for a few weeks but thought it would just add to stirring claims etc. they have asked \\\\\allegedly\\\\\\\\\\\\ the WRU what could they do to help maintain income streams at OUR stadium in the likeliehood that the football club pull out? what the f**k is all that about, and is the tail wagging the dog yet again, ain't they made enough out of the project yet, or is there a case for drip feeding the cash cow forever?

Many need since 62 here, but is this linked to the Stadium and football club being two separate companies? Who owns shares in which company and where does the langstone and pmg debt sit, and what company does VT hold his shares in. Can VT for example side step any debt by putting one company through but retaining the other and then carry on.

This is genuine and I have known about it now for a few weeks but thought it would just add to stirring claims etc. they have asked \\\\\allegedly\\\\\\\\\\\\ the WRU what could they do to help maintain income streams at OUR stadium in the likeliehood that the football club pull out? what the f**k is all that about, and is the tail wagging the dog yet again, ain't they made enough out of the project yet, or is there a case for drip feeding the cash cow forever?

Many need since 62 here, but is this linked to the Stadium and football club being two separate companies? Who owns shares in which company and where does the langstone and pmg debt sit, and what company does VT hold his shares in. Can VT for example side step any debt by putting one company through but retaining the other and then carry on.

Dont agree, First it is True what has been stated by Gwyn and Daya, But Since 62 just Reads from old accounts.

could vt want to take us from ccs to a new bigger groun d if we were in the prem ?

This can be explained. PMG are trying to cover their asses in a 'worst case scenario. they are owed about £7m which up until recnently they had no worries over.

IF Sam takes the club to court, and wins, the club will go into admin, maybe worse.

At the moment the club has about £10m of playing assets - maximum, and not much else.

VT is owed more than that in SECURED debt.

PMG are now (I beleive -and feel free to correct me if you know better - I'm sure VT forced a deed of variation when he came in, and also half the PMG debt can be turned to shares at any point by the Malaysian controlled board) ranked BEHIND VT, so should the club be liquidated, then the sale of all the assets would at best pay off all VT's debts. This would leave PMG with next to nothing (and Sam too, which is IMHO why he hasnt tried to force the issue).

Now there is one extra asset in the club, - the stadium. This is valued at something like £30m in the accounts (correct me if I'm wrong I havent seen the 2009 ones as the club dont seem to bother to send them to shareholders any more). BUT that value in a liquidation may be zero -as if there is no football club then who will buy it. Thats why iMHO PMG are looking at what use there could be if there wasnt a footy club there - its only the rugby club at the mo. who would buy it - and what would it be worth to them ? Could they afford any decent sum anyway ?

PMG ae probably also trying to see if the council would buy it back.

Lets hope that it never comes to this.

This can be explained. PMG are trying to cover their asses in a 'worst case scenario. they are owed about £7m which up until recnently they had no worries over.

IF Sam takes the club to court, and wins, the club will go into admin, maybe worse.

At the moment the club has about £10m of playing assets - maximum, and not much else.

VT is owed more than that in SECURED debt.

PMG are now (I beleive -and feel free to correct me if you know better - I'm sure VT forced a deed of variation when he came in, and also half the PMG debt can be turned to shares at any point by the Malaysian controlled board) ranked BEHIND VT, so should the club be liquidated, then the sale of all the assets would at best pay off all VT's debts. This would leave PMG with next to nothing (and Sam too, which is IMHO why he hasnt tried to force the issue).

Now there is one extra asset in the club, - the stadium. This is valued at something like £30m in the accounts (correct me if I'm wrong I havent seen the 2009 ones as the club dont seem to bother to send them to shareholders any more). BUT that value in a liquidation may be zero -as if there is no football club then who will buy it. Thats why iMHO PMG are looking at what use there could be if there wasnt a footy club there - its only the rugby club at the mo. who would buy it - and what would it be worth to them ? Could they afford any decent sum anyway ?

PMG ae probably also trying to see if the council would buy it back.

Lets hope that it never comes to this.

Interesting point. If they are ranked behind VT and liabilities exceed assets, does this give PMG a problem in that they are owed £7m and need to show to their auditors that there is a realistic prospect of recovery. If they can't do they need to write it down/off in their books? Accountant view please?

AFAIK, the stadium is owned by a separate CCFC company set up specifically for that purpose... which means, should club go under, that company may not be affected.

Which I believe would leave a company with PMG having a fair whack of shares with a stadium with only the Cardiff Blues playing there... meaning the overheads of the stadium would cost PMG a fair whack. I'd thus assume PMG were looking into the prospect of subsidies...

The phrase shoe and other foot spring to mind.

AFAIK, the stadium is owned by a separate CCFC company set up specifically for that purpose... which means, should club go under, that company may not be affected.

Which I believe would leave a company with PMG having a fair whack of shares with a stadium with only the Cardiff Blues playing there... meaning the overheads of the stadium would cost PMG a fair whack. I'd thus assume PMG were looking into the prospect of subsidies...

Its all part of the same thing. Southampton tried that trick and failed. The accounts were delayed in order to get a valuation on the stadium, so the stadium is part of the CCFC group which will collpase completely if the club goes into liquidation.

AFAIK, the stadium is owned by a separate CCFC company set up specifically for that purpose... which means, should club go under, that company may not be affected.

Which I believe would leave a company with PMG having a fair whack of shares with a stadium with only the Cardiff Blues playing there... meaning the overheads of the stadium would cost PMG a fair whack. I'd thus assume PMG were looking into the prospect of subsidies...

Its all part of the same thing. Southampton tried that trick and failed. The accounts were delayed in order to get a valuation on the stadium, so the stadium is part of the CCFC group which will collpase completely if the club goes into liquidation.

It depends though. The Southampton thing was pretty blatent. It may well be the composition of the company holding the stadium asset is in fact PMG dominated, which means the Southampton principle may not apply.

Even so, the trick is irrelevant - PMG wouldn't care where the club is or any punishments from liquidation...

Equally, it may well be the case that as secured creditors, PMG would be having an eye on obtaining the stadium and thus siunding out the subsidies?

To clarify, the Southampton trick was the board faking separate distinct company to try to wipe all debts and retain the stadium.

PMG wouldn't be doing that - as secured creditors, that would mean willinglky wanting to wipe their debt out.

This is genuine and I have known about it now for a few weeks but thought it would just add to stirring claims etc. they have asked \\\\\allegedly\\\\\\\\\\\\ the WRU what could they do to help maintain income streams at OUR stadium in the likeliehood that the football club pull out? what the f**k is all that about, and is the tail wagging the dog yet again, ain't they made enough out of the project yet, or is there a case for drip feeding the cash cow forever?

Many need since 62 here, but is this linked to the Stadium and football club being two separate companies? Who owns shares in which company and where does the langstone and pmg debt sit, and what company does VT hold his shares in. Can VT for example side step any debt by putting one company through but retaining the other and then carry on.

Dont agree, First it is True what has been stated by Gwyn and Daya, But Since 62 just Reads from old accounts.

since 62 has the skills, knowledge and experience to analyse and understand the figures better than any of us Annis, and I include myself as a fully qualified accountant with years of experience of running businesses . It would probably solve a lot of arguments if you sat down with him and showed him what additional info you have available. Maybe his prognosis would be different then.

From the previous threads it doesnt seem that much new has appeared recently, just Sam trying to put a different slant on the figures. Carl, armed with the info given by Sam doesnt seem to dispute that until a court case agreement 2 is now in play, but includes the £9m stadium naming rights and £5m promotion bonus in the £30m figure which he quotes. We all know that the stadium naming rights will never be paid, and can only hope that we will get to a position where the £5m will be paid. And at the moment the balance £15m + about 2m interest doesnt need to be repaid until 2016. This is pretty much the same as what Keith was saying.

Hopefully they can sort something out sooner rather than later, as the promises mean nothing to me. Plenty have been broken regarding this club in the past, and millions of pounds can overcome a supposed 'love' of a club. Whilst this debt is there/or in dispute we have a cloud hanging over us which could destroy our club.

A fuller understanding of the legal relationship between CCFC and CCS would seem to be required. How strong is the legal undertaking between CCFC and CCS? Possibly some gamesmanship as various parties tug for the spoils and control?

Don't worry it's a wasted thread according to Sven it's bollocks

It was in fact Cardiff city's own chief executive who met with the council for PMG - but Sven will probably say that's v
Bollocks too.

My contact at the council claims Jenkins is actually paid/ employed by PMG and not Cardiff city , according to Jenkins.hence why he represented PMG to the council enquiry.

AFAIK, the stadium is owned by a separate CCFC company set up specifically for that purpose... which means, should club go under, that company may not be affected.

Which I believe would leave a company with PMG having a fair whack of shares with a stadium with only the Cardiff Blues playing there... meaning the overheads of the stadium would cost PMG a fair whack. I'd thus assume PMG were looking into the prospect of subsidies...

Its all part of the same thing. Southampton tried that trick and failed. The accounts were delayed in order to get a valuation on the stadium, so the stadium is part of the CCFC group which will collpase completely if the club goes into liquidation.

It depends though. The Southampton thing was pretty blatent. It may well be the composition of the company holding the stadium asset is in fact PMG dominated, which means the Southampton principle may not apply.

Even so, the trick is irrelevant - PMG wouldn't care where the club is or any punishments from liquidation...

Equally, it may well be the case that as secured creditors, PMG would be having an eye on obtaining the stadium and thus siunding out the subsidies?

Yes, thats pretty much what I was on about amongst my typos above. Although I was looking at it from a 'sale' point of view, whereby they sell it back to the council or to The Blues Rugby. There is little or no chance of the club going through and the stadium not being part of it, although I'm pretty sure the council will have some sort of security over it anyway (so it wouldnt necessarily be the actual stadium which was sold, more like seucritisation of future income streams from it).

Yes, thats pretty much what I was on about amongst my typos above. Although I was looking at it from a 'sale' point of view, whereby they sell it back to the council or to The Blues Rugby. There is little or no chance of the club going through and the stadium not being part of it, although I'm pretty sure the council will have some sort of security over it anyway (so it wouldnt necessarily be the actual stadium which was sold, more like seucritisation of future income streams from it).

Blues had their own financial issues, no way they could afford the stadium, or to maintain it. Council,again, no chance there either.

AFAIK, the stadium can't be sold for another 18 years or so - council wary of us selling the stadium ASAP.

This is genuine and I have known about it now for a few weeks but thought it would just add to stirring claims etc. they have asked \\\\\allegedly\\\\\\\\\\\\ the WRU what could they do to help maintain income streams at OUR stadium in the likeliehood that the football club pull out? what the f**k is all that about, and is the tail wagging the dog yet again, ain't they made enough out of the project yet, or is there a case for drip feeding the cash cow forever?

Hmmm, I'll accept that as being right if you are aware, Big Gwyn....

As I said, I'm sure it'll be protectionism form PMG and maybe down to the Malaysians NOT giving them any info on their current thinking/strategies....and quite rightly so!!

Cheers,

Sven

Sven,

" sorry Daya will be suffice"

Like I said, interesting sh1t.

The way it was explained to me was Cardiff City Holdings Ltd is the parent company and Cardiff City FC and Cardiff City Stadium who are subsidiaries (owned by CCFC Holdings).

If either CCFC or CCS went bust then Cardiff City Holdings would continue to trade as would CCFC if CCS went bust and CCS would continue to trade if CCFC went bust.

However, if Cardiff City Holdings Ltd went bust then both CCFC and CCS would be wound up as assets of that company.

what do PMG do anymore? do they fund the club or just take their 83k a month?
Surely Guy will have to let the club go to those who fund its running? Like has been said, surely they have bled the club dry enough.....

what do PMG do anymore? do they fund the club or just take their 83k a month?
Surely Guy will have to let the club go to those who fund its running? Like has been said, surely they have bled the club dry enough.....

They are owed money so have ever write to want it back no matter of peoples feeling towards PMG.

This is genuine and I have known about it now for a few weeks but thought it would just add to stirring claims etc. they have asked \\\\\allegedly\\\\\\\\\\\\ the WRU what could they do to help maintain income streams at OUR stadium in the likeliehood that the football club pull out? what the f**k is all that about, and is the tail wagging the dog yet again, ain't they made enough out of the project yet, or is there a case for drip feeding the cash cow forever?

Many need since 62 here, but is this linked to the Stadium and football club being two separate companies? Who owns shares in which company and where does the langstone and pmg debt sit, and what company does VT hold his shares in. Can VT for example side step any debt by putting one company through but retaining the other and then carry on.

Dont agree, First it is True what has been stated by Gwyn and Daya, But Since 62 just Reads from old accounts.

I tell you what , its a good job you stick to the rule of not allowing "sniping" on here when you post Annis.

Shadwell asked who owned shares in which company , nothing to do with old accounts (which contain info. up to July 2010 so are fairly recent anyway). The answer is that VT holds in shares in Cardiff City Football Club (Holdings) Ltd - as disclosed in all the papers sent out to shareholders , including yourself , before the meeting to approve the share issue last May.
Holdings then owns all the shares in both Cardiff City Football Club and Cardiff City Stadium - they are both wholly owned subsidiaries.

The chances of anyone trying to avoid debt by putting one company through but retaining assets in a closely connected one are pretty slim , both under insolvency legislation and in football terms.You may remember Southampton F.C claiming their holding company was totally seperate from their football club when they went into Admin , and failed.

If PMG have made a formal approach to the Council over this and it is given any kind of serious consideration, it is likely to appear shortly in published minutes on their website.