Wolves Fined

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/footbal ... 521603.stm

Top sides change their teams around all the time. one rule for the big 4, one for the rest.

Precisely what I said to my mate at work. It's a squad game, surely, and shouldn't have mattered. I'd be pissed off as a Wloves fan, but I don't think they broke any rules and would win an appeal, I guess

What a disgrace that is.

f*cking wankers.
Not that i like Wolves, i hate the bastards, but that's pathetic.

I remember Warnock kicking off about Liverpool playing thier reserves Vs Sheff Utd a few years back.
Did they get fined?
Did they f**k.

Yeah, if this isn't overturned Wolves should go to the European Court of Arbitration for Sport. Fining someone for fielding different players is surely breaching employment regulations. How do the Premier League not know that all the players fielded didn't play well enough in training to warrant a starting berth? Quite disrespectful towards those players brought in isn't it?

Yeah, if this isn't overturned Wolves should go to the European Court of Arbitration for Sport. Fining someone for fielding different players is surely breaching employment regulations. How do the Premier League not know that all the players fielded didn't play well enough in training to warrant a starting berth? Quite disrespectful towards those players brought in isn't it?

How does it breach employment law - players get paid irrespective of playing. Arguably, match/goal bonuses, but no way you'd win a legal case on that basis.

Didn't do enough in training? Didn't the manager admit he was deliberately resting players?

It's disrespectful towards those players the manager making it quite plain their role is solely to fill in when he wants to rest players for a vital game, surely?

It would be breaching an employment regulation by technically not giving squad players an equal opportunity at first team football. Obviously I'm not a lawyer so don't know it in detail but fining a team for using their entire squad? Maybe if the Premier League are so nitty about it they should introduce smaller squad sizes.

It would be breaching an employment regulation by technically not giving squad players an equal opportunity at first team football. Obviously I'm not a lawyer so don't know it in detail but fining a team for using their entire squad? Maybe if the Premier League are so nitty about it they should introduce smaller squad sizes.

Errm, no. No way would you ever win a legal case with that argument.

Players are paid a weekly salary. That's irrespective of playing - where individual contracts have appearance bonuses added. The presence of such a clause does not force the employer to play those players.

The issue isn't "using squad", the issue is their manager gobbed off about DELIBERATELY playing a weakened team.

And let's be honest - if it was say between us and the Jacks last game of season for final playoff spo, Jacks' opponents "used their entire squad", people would be up in arms!

Wolves dramatically increased the chance of losing that game, which advantages their opponents that night. Their opponents are competing for a CL place. Other teams after a CL place are thus disadvantaged as they'll play a full strength Wolves team.

It would be breaching an employment regulation by technically not giving squad players an equal opportunity at first team football. Obviously I'm not a lawyer so don't know it in detail but fining a team for using their entire squad? Maybe if the Premier League are so nitty about it they should introduce smaller squad sizes.

It would only breach employment law if the player’s omission was on the grounds of race, sex, sexual orientation, religious belief or the most likely at Wolves disability. There could be a breach of contract if there was a clause stating the player must start the game, but I doubt anyone apart from McPhail gets one of those.

If I were Wolves I would appeal on the grounds that they have the right to determine their own destiny and they shouldn’t have to worry about the impact on other sides in the league.

IMO if you took this ruling to its logical conclusion, Wolves (or any team) could be fined if they sold their best players in the January transfer window and either didn’t replace them or replaced them with inferior quality. It could be argued that any team Wolves may have played home and away by then would be disadvantaged because they played them when they had a stronger squad.

It’s a nonsense decision by the Premier League and Wolves should appeal.

IMO if you took this ruling to its logical conclusion, Wolves (or any team) could be fined if they sold their best players in the January transfer window and either didn’t replace them or replaced them with inferior quality. It could be argued that any team Wolves may have played home and away by then would be disadvantaged because they played them when they had a stronger squad.

That's stretching logic to the point of absurdity!

The equivalent would be Wolves loaning their best players out, recalling them all after they've missed a single game.

IIRC, one of the PL rules is you must play your strongest side unless there's an incredibly good reason. Wolves facing a relegation 6 pointer a few days later isn't a good excuse. Nor should it be.

It would be breaching an employment regulation by technically not giving squad players an equal opportunity at first team football. Obviously I'm not a lawyer so don't know it in detail but fining a team for using their entire squad? Maybe if the Premier League are so nitty about it they should introduce smaller squad sizes.

Errm, no. No way would you ever win a legal case with that argument.

Players are paid a weekly salary. That's irrespective of playing - where individual contracts have appearance bonuses added. The presence of such a clause does not force the employer to play those players.

The issue isn't "using squad", the issue is their manager gobbed off about DELIBERATELY playing a weakened team.

And let's be honest - if it was say between us and the Jacks last game of season for final playoff spo, Jacks' opponents "used their entire squad", people would be up in arms!

Wolves dramatically increased the chance of losing that game, which advantages their opponents that night. Their opponents are competing for a CL place. Other teams after a CL place are thus disadvantaged as they'll play a full strength Wolves team.

You are right there would be no employment law argument, but I also don't see why McCarthy admitting he put out a weakened team should attract any kind of penalty.

He is paid to worry about Wolves not anyone else. Provided the team he selected didn't lose on purpose (there is no evidence of that whatsoever) then frankly the result is of no sigifigance to anyone else apart from Manchester United and Wolves.

If Liverpool, Spurs, Arsenal, Manchester City and Aston Villa are worried about CL places then they will have to get enough points themselves to qualify without having to rely on others to do the job for them.

This does actually introduce an article I read a good year or so ago when someone in League One claimed that clubs were cheating by loaning players. Instantly you think 'it's part of the game, f**k off' but the more the guy talked about it the more you could see his logic behind it.

I still think that a squad is there to be used. If a club is moaning about how another team puts out its squad then maybe they should have won more points and not have to worry about the situation?

It's a tricky area but I can certainly see why Wolves are pissed off at getting fined when the bigger clubs do it all the time.

IMO if you took this ruling to its logical conclusion, Wolves (or any team) could be fined if they sold their best players in the January transfer window and either didn’t replace them or replaced them with inferior quality. It could be argued that any team Wolves may have played home and away by then would be disadvantaged because they played them when they had a stronger squad.

That's stretching logic to the point of absurdity!

The equivalent would be Wolves loaning their best players out, recalling them all after they've missed a single game.

IIRC, one of the PL rules is you must play your strongest side unless there's an incredibly good reason. Wolves facing a relegation 6 pointer a few days later isn't a good excuse. Nor should it be.

Sorry I don't think it's absurd at all. What if Wolves had to sell for financial reasons? Should they then also be fined for weakening their squad due to financial mismanagement? If you are logical you can certainly see the paradox

It is also might be a rule of the Premier League to field your strongest team. But who is the judge of Wolves' 'strongest team?'

It has to be the manager considering all the circumstances. In this circumstance Wolves had gained a very good point at Spurs only days earlier and his so called best players were dead on their feet.

Therefore he had every right to rotate his squad so that those same players came back fresh against Burnley were the likelihood of 3 points was much higher than it would have been at Old Trafford.

Sorry I don't think it's absurd at all. What if Wolves had to sell for financial reasons? Should they then also be fined for weakening their squad due to financial mismanagement? If you are logical you can certainly see the paradox

It is also might be a rule of the Premier League to field your strongest team. But who is the judge of Wolves' 'strongest team?'

It has to be the manager considering all the circumstances. In this circumstance Wolves had gained a very good point at Spurs only days earlier and his so called best players were dead on their feet.

Therefore he had every right to rotate his squad so that those same players came back fresh against Burnley were the likelihood of 3 points was much higher than it would have been at Old Trafford.

That is the key here. I suppose Mick McCarthy publicly stating he was playing a weakened team might weigh against him but does Mick McCarthy's opinion cover everyone's opinion? Their strongest team is very subjective view which is why the rule is stupid in the first place.

This does actually introduce an article I read a good year or so ago when someone in League One claimed that clubs were cheating by loaning players. Instantly you think 'it's part of the game, f**k off' but the more the guy talked about it the more you could see his logic behind it.

I still think that a squad is there to be used. If a club is moaning about how another team puts out its squad then maybe they should have won more points and not have to worry about the situation?

It's a tricky area but I can certainly see why Wolves are pissed off at getting fined when the bigger clubs do it all the time.

I can see the point that the loan system is a form of cheating but the alternative argument is every team can loan players (provided they have paid their tax note to Mr Ridsdale).

So if some clubs are more proactive than others then surely they have made their own good fortune.

That said loaning players from teams in the same division should be looked at as that is obviously open to abuse.

Sorry I don't think it's absurd at all. What if Wolves had to sell for financial reasons? Should they then also be fined for weakening their squad due to financial mismanagement? If you are logical you can certainly see the paradox

It is also might be a rule of the Premier League to field your strongest team. But who is the judge of Wolves' 'strongest team?'

It has to be the manager considering all the circumstances. In this circumstance Wolves had gained a very good point at Spurs only days earlier and his so called best players were dead on their feet.

Therefore he had every right to rotate his squad so that those same players came back fresh against Burnley were the likelihood of 3 points was much higher than it would have been at Old Trafford.

That is the key here. I suppose Mick McCarthy publicly stating he was playing a weakened team might weigh against him but does Mick McCarthy's opinion cover everyone's opinion? Their strongest team is very subjective view which is why the rule is stupid in the first place.

Totally agree and in that week Wolves' strongest team may well have been the one he put out has the one which played at Spurs 3 days earlier might have been shatterred. As you say the rule is stupid because it is so subjective.

Sorry I don't think it's absurd at all. What if Wolves had to sell for financial reasons? Should they then also be fined for weakening their squad due to financial mismanagement? If you are logical you can certainly see the paradox

No, if a team need to sell they need to sell. That is nothing to do with this situation, which is deliberately fielding a wekened team for ONE match!

It is also might be a rule of the Premier League to field your strongest team. But who is the judge of Wolves' 'strongest team?'

How many of those coming into the team for that game stayed there for the relegation 6 pointer game? That answers any question about judging Wolves, surely.

It has to be the manager considering all the circumstances. In this circumstance Wolves had gained a very good point at Spurs only days earlier and his so called best players were dead on their feet.

Therefore he had every right to rotate his squad so that those same players came back fresh against Burnley were the likelihood of 3 points was much higher than it would have been at Old Trafford.

Ah, right - so basically "Big team should always beat little team, so it doesn't matter if little team throw the game"? If that's their best defence against the charge...

Wolves cynically broke league rules to obtain an advantage. They got caught. Don't do the crime etc.

Going on that basis then nerd, should teams like Man Utd, Arsenal, Liverpool and Chelsea be fined every time they field a slightly weakened team against 'lesser' opposition? I think it's an unrealistic rule given the fixture intensity these days and it should be the manager's right to choose who he plays and when.

The problem I have with this is that if players are tired and in need of a rest, carrying small knocks etc, are they operating at 100% ?

I have no problem with Wolves being fined, but so should every other club that does it. It s the whole one rule for one issue.

It doesn't seem to be you have to field a full strength squad as the rule states, just not to make too many changes .

Sorry I don't think it's absurd at all. What if Wolves had to sell for financial reasons? Should they then also be fined for weakening their squad due to financial mismanagement? If you are logical you can certainly see the paradox

No, if a team need to sell they need to sell. That is nothing to do with this situation, which is deliberately fielding a wekened team for ONE match!

It is also might be a rule of the Premier League to field your strongest team. But who is the judge of Wolves' 'strongest team?'

How many of those coming into the team for that game stayed there for the relegation 6 pointer game? That answers any question about judging Wolves, surely.

It has to be the manager considering all the circumstances. In this circumstance Wolves had gained a very good point at Spurs only days earlier and his so called best players were dead on their feet.

Therefore he had every right to rotate his squad so that those same players came back fresh against Burnley were the likelihood of 3 points was much higher than it would have been at Old Trafford.

Ah, right - so basically "Big team should always beat little team, so it doesn't matter if little team throw the game"? If that's their best defence against the charge...

Wolves cynically broke league rules to obtain an advantage. They got caught. Don't do the crime etc.

You have compeletly missed the point that Judging what is Wolves strongest team is down to the manager, not the Premier League. That includes all situations before all games and frankly your arguments don't water at all.

What about last season when Man utd played their reserves against Hull on the last game when Hull and Newcastle were in a relegation battle,Newcastle were all iffy about it but in the end Hull lost anyway and Newcastle went down.

So whats the diference between Utd situation and Wolves,none so Wolves shouldn't be fined.

What about last season when Man utd played their reserves against Hull on the last game when Hull and Newcastle were in a relegation battle,Newcastle were all iffy about it but in the end Hull lost anyway and Newcastle went down.

So whats the diference between Utd situation and Wolves,none so Wolves shouldn't be fined.

Compare Man Utd reserves and Wolves reserves. Massive difference.

You have compeletly missed the point that Judging what is Wolves strongest team is down to the manager, not the Premier League. That includes all situations before all games and frankly your arguments don't water at all.

So if Wolves manager say sent out a purely youth team, then the Prem League couldn't claim that wasn't their strongest team? Since according to you it's purely down to the manager.

Like it or not, Wolves made a choice. Their first team could have played that night. They cynically decided to drop them, claiming they needed rest. They made their choice, got correctly punished for it. Wolves manager did NOT judge what his best team was. That's a false argument. His decision was to hold his best players out of one particular game to try to gain an advantage going into another game.

If the situation was reversed, we were in position to achieve something only for rivals to face a similarly weakened team, it would be highly interesting to see how many would still hold the "it's ok" line.

Not to mention it would also be interesting to see how many defending it would continue to do so if DJ sent out a team purely of youths for an away game.

You have compeletly missed the point that Judging what is Wolves strongest team is down to the manager, not the Premier League. That includes all situations before all games and frankly your arguments don't water at all.

So if Wolves manager say sent out a purely youth team, then the Prem League couldn't claim that wasn't their strongest team? Since according to you it's purely down to the manager.

Like it or not, Wolves made a choice. Their first team could have played that night. They cynically decided to drop them, claiming they needed rest. They made their choice, got correctly punished for it. Wolves manager did NOT judge what his best team was. That's a false argument. His decision was to hold his best players out of one particular game to try to gain an advantage going into another game.

If the situation was reversed, we were in position to achieve something only for rivals to face a similarly weakened team, it would be highly interesting to see how many would still hold the "it's ok" line.

Not to mention it would also be interesting to see how many defending it would continue to do so if DJ sent out a team purely of youths for an away game.

Firstly I am going to ignore all references to ‘youth teams’ as that was not the circumstance. Instead McCarthy ‘rotated’ his squad as I believe he is perfectly entitled to do.

On that of course the manager made a judgement that's what he is paid to do. If he 'cynically' believes other members of that squad are best suited to play in a particular game for the better good of his side, then he makes that call. With regard to Wolves vs. Manchester United McCarthy made that 'Judgement' and good luck to him.

As to the question you posed if another side rotated their squad (again the youth team argument is irrelevant) then by all means that is their choice. Even if I was unhappy with their actions I would still understand only CCFC earn the right to dictate our destiny and we should-not rely on others to do it for us.

You have compeletly missed the point that Judging what is Wolves strongest team is down to the manager, not the Premier League. That includes all situations before all games and frankly your arguments don't water at all.

So if Wolves manager say sent out a purely youth team, then the Prem League couldn't claim that wasn't their strongest team? Since according to you it's purely down to the manager.

Like it or not, Wolves made a choice. Their first team could have played that night. They cynically decided to drop them, claiming they needed rest. They made their choice, got correctly punished for it. Wolves manager did NOT judge what his best team was. That's a false argument. His decision was to hold his best players out of one particular game to try to gain an advantage going into another game.

If the situation was reversed, we were in position to achieve something only for rivals to face a similarly weakened team, it would be highly interesting to see how many would still hold the "it's ok" line.

Not to mention it would also be interesting to see how many defending it would continue to do so if DJ sent out a team purely of youths for an away game.

Firstly I am going to ignore all references to ‘youth teams’ as that was not the circumstance. Instead McCarthy ‘rotated’ his squad as I believe he is perfectly entitled to do.

On that of course the manager made a judgement that's what he is paid to do. If he 'cynically' believes other members of that squad are best suited to play in a particular game for the better good of his side, then he makes that call. With regard to Wolves vs. Manchester United McCarthy made that 'Judgement' and good luck to him.

As to the question you posed if another side rotated their squad (again the youth team argument is irrelevant) then by all means that is their choice. Even if I was unhappy with their actions I would still understand only CCFC earn the right to dictate our destiny and we should-not rely on others to do it for us.

Can you drop the "rotation" claim because that's an out and out lie.

Teams rotate players within squads. Teams do not drop an entire first team under "rotation". Those players brought in had played precisely how many minutes of time in the Prem that season? Which in turn makes it scarcely credible he'd believe those players were the best to face Man United.

Firstly I am going to ignore all references to ‘youth teams’ as that was not the circumstance. Instead McCarthy ‘rotated’ his squad as I believe he is perfectly entitled to do.

Ah, but playing youths could well be a circumstance. You claim Wolves manager perfectly entitled to select "best team". That could well be purely youths, eh?

Aaron Ramsey was a youth player when he started playing for us yet he was better than what we had. Due to being a youth player does that mean Dave Jones should have been fined?

Aaron Ramsey was a youth player when he started playing for us yet he was better than what we had. Due to being a youth player does that mean Dave Jones should have been fined?

Did we drop ten players?

No.

So you're nowhere near close to comparing like with like.

Rotating a few players is fine. Squad game, that's acceptable. Dropping TEN players to rest for a game a few days away is unacceptable and funny enough is somewhat different than picking Aaron Ramsey.

Still, regardless of the squirming to justify it, they've been correctly found to have breached the rules and been punished.

How do you draw the line though? It's impossible. The only way to change it is by bringing in a rule to disallow changing more than 3 or 4 players from game to game unless the changes are forced. The managers would be up in arms about something like that though.

How do you draw the line though? It's impossible. The only way to change it is by bringing in a rule to disallow changing more than 3 or 4 players from game to game unless the changes are forced. The managers would be up in arms about something like that though.

The point is Zabier, no-one thinks legit squad rotation is wrong.

The issue with this was the incredible way Wolves seemed to think they could get away with :-

a) Dropping ten players.
b) Putting in players who had barely played - even as subs - in the Prem this season.
c) Openly telling the media they were resting players for a game on the weekend.

The issue of the rotation is always gong to be subjective - top clubs like say Man Utd, their "reserves" would walk into most other Prem clubs easily. So rotating several players isn't going to unduly waken their team whatsoever.

Wolves, totally different story. They may as well simply have not turned up.

I see what you're saying and I do agree, but how do they regulate this in the future to stop it from happening? It's all very well punishing teams after the incident but how does a manager know where the line is?