Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:42 pm
captbirdseye wrote:The EU will be a better organisation without us really as all we've done is shout and moan about it since joining and we've still got this horrible colonial empire idea about ourselves.
I very much doubt that the rest of Europe hate us but they must be sick of our arrogance.
The sooner we get taken down a peg and realise that this country isn't the big boy on the block anymore the better we and the rest of Europe will be.
Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:48 pm
cityone wrote:captbirdseye wrote:The EU will be a better organisation without us really as all we've done is shout and moan about it since joining and we've still got this horrible colonial empire idea about ourselves.
I very much doubt that the rest of Europe hate us but they must be sick of our arrogance.
The sooner we get taken down a peg and realise that this country isn't the big boy on the block anymore the better we and the rest of Europe will be.
Oh dear You don't happen to be on the EU payroll do you?? Let's see how they get on without the obsene amount of money they steal off us every year. (£10 billion net last year)
Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:18 pm
captbirdseye wrote:The EU will be a better organisation without us really as all we've done is shout and moan about it since joining and we've still got this horrible colonial empire idea about ourselves.
I very much doubt that the rest of Europe hate us but they must be sick of our arrogance.
The sooner we get taken down a peg and realise that this country isn't the big boy on the block anymore the better we and the rest of Europe will be.
Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:29 pm
Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:41 pm
captbirdseye wrote:I'm not on the EU payroll.
Our MPs have shown that we can't get out of this colonial obsession with various antics on a weekly basis.
Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:44 pm
Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:45 pm
Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:26 pm
Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:39 pm
Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:54 pm
swilsh wrote:The idea that the EU will be a better organisation without the UK is silly. The EU functions in blocs, and the UK usually aligns with the Netherlands, and Scandinavian countries, on opening-up markets, and with the eastern European countries on resisting direct EU interference. With the UK going this will strengthen France and Germany. The former often guilty of supporting protectionist policies, the latter of overreach on EU controls. Inside the EU the UK had vetoes over things like the creation of an EU army, outside of it, it does not.
The UK had an important role as a pragmatic counterbalance to other Member States. It is a shame that it was lost in the debate how influential the UK has been since it joined the EU in policy, and general direction. But with Brexit the UK’s positive influence in the EU will be lost. This doesn’t even take into consideration that the UK is a net contributor to the budget, has some of the world’s finest universities, and gave the EU, alongside Ireland, an English speaking member state that could support its financial markets with an international pull.
Those that celebrate the UK is the fifth/sixth largest economy seem to forget we got to that position support by being a member of the EU, not despite of it. In my opinion neither the EU nor the UK will benefit from Brexit, but there was a referendum, and there is little evidence support for a second referendum has increased, so in my view Brexit we must.
The reason why no deal must be avoided at all costs is simple, if you just play through the scenario of what a no deal entails. We leave and enter WTO terms- losing all the Free Trade Agreements that we have as an EU member. Most Favoured Nation rules means that outside of an FTA, whatever tariff we apply, to one country, we must apply to all other WTO members. MFN= really bad news.
Therefore if we leave and apply say a 0% tariff to US apples, then all imported apples will have a 0% tariff. Then when we go to agree a FTA with say Australia, and the topic of apples comes up, they will say- you have nothing to offer us – we already have a 0% tariff on apples. And remember this doesn’t have to be reciprocated.
Or say we decide to have tariffs, that instantly increases the cost of our imports, makes the UK a less attractive market for investors as the cost of doing business will increase. But you say- wait! We can sign up to our own Free Trade Agreements. FTAs take a very long time to agree, sometimes negotiations can go on for decades and still not reach agreement. WTO rules will leave us completely powerless and with little leverage in FTA negotiations, as a relatively less attractive place for investment than EU countries, or countries with FTAs with the EU (Japan, Australia, Canada etc). Countries will prioritise the EU market over the UK's not because they are remaniacs, but because it is a much larger market. Businesses will seek to move at least a some of their operations to countries that support access to that wider market, ala Dyson or Nissan.
If you have professional qualifications, these will no longer be accepted in a no deal scenario, this will require another deal. You want to import goods to the EU, you have to prove to the EU's standards it is safe to do so, meanwhile also complying with any new UK regulations. Do you love red tape and bureaucracy? Then boy are you going to love no deal.
This is why no one ever advocated for this outcome in the referendum, because it is bloody nuts! Those that say businesses will sort it out. Just like German car makers have convinced the EU to go easy? Trust me, they wont. No deal terrifies businesses both in and out of the UK. It will be an unparalleled shit show, with all the grace of Leo Fortune West closing down a keeper. An intention to agree an FTA in the future framework is imperative.
Thank you for coming to my Ted talk.
Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:06 pm
swilsh wrote:The idea that the EU will be a better organisation without the UK is silly. The EU functions in blocs, and the UK usually aligns with the Netherlands, and Scandinavian countries, on opening-up markets, and with the eastern European countries on resisting direct EU interference. With the UK going this will strengthen France and Germany. The former often guilty of supporting protectionist policies, the latter of overreach on EU controls. Inside the EU the UK had vetoes over things like the creation of an EU army, outside of it, it does not.
The UK had an important role as a pragmatic counterbalance to other Member States. It is a shame that it was lost in the debate how influential the UK has been since it joined the EU in policy, and general direction. But with Brexit the UK’s positive influence in the EU will be lost. This doesn’t even take into consideration that the UK is a net contributor to the budget, has some of the world’s finest universities, and gave the EU, alongside Ireland, an English speaking member state that could support its financial markets with an international pull.
Those that celebrate the UK is the fifth/sixth largest economy seem to forget we got to that position support by being a member of the EU, not despite of it. In my opinion neither the EU nor the UK will benefit from Brexit, but there was a referendum, and there is little evidence support for a second referendum has increased, so in my view Brexit we must.
The reason why no deal must be avoided at all costs is simple, if you just play through the scenario of what a no deal entails. We leave and enter WTO terms- losing all the Free Trade Agreements that we have as an EU member. Most Favoured Nation rules means that outside of an FTA, whatever tariff we apply, to one country, we must apply to all other WTO members. MFN= really bad news.
Therefore if we leave and apply say a 0% tariff to US apples, then all imported apples will have a 0% tariff. Then when we go to agree a FTA with say Australia, and the topic of apples comes up, they will say- you have nothing to offer us – we already have a 0% tariff on apples. And remember this doesn’t have to be reciprocated.
Or say we decide to have tariffs, that instantly increases the cost of our imports, makes the UK a less attractive market for investors as the cost of doing business will increase. But you say- wait! We can sign up to our own Free Trade Agreements. FTAs take a very long time to agree, sometimes negotiations can go on for decades and still not reach agreement. WTO rules will leave us completely powerless and with little leverage in FTA negotiations, as a relatively less attractive place for investment than EU countries, or countries with FTAs with the EU (Japan, Australia, Canada etc). Countries will prioritise the EU market over the UK's not because they are remaniacs, but because it is a much larger market. Businesses will seek to move at least a some of their operations to countries that support access to that wider market, ala Dyson or Nissan.
If you have professional qualifications, these will no longer be accepted in a no deal scenario, this will require another deal. You want to import goods to the EU, you have to prove to the EU's standards it is safe to do so, meanwhile also complying with any new UK regulations. Do you love red tape and bureaucracy? Then boy are you going to love no deal.
This is why no one ever advocated for this outcome in the referendum, because it is bloody nuts! Those that say businesses will sort it out. Just like German car makers have convinced the EU to go easy? Trust me, they wont. No deal terrifies businesses both in and out of the UK. It will be an unparalleled shit show, with all the grace of Leo Fortune West closing down a keeper. An intention to agree an FTA in the future framework is imperative.
Thank you for coming to my Ted talk.
Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:12 pm
Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:15 pm
Bananas wrote:#welshandeuropean
#wexit
Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:26 pm
swilsh wrote:Thank you for coming to my Ted talk.
Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:35 am
Lengee wrote:swilsh wrote:The idea that the EU will be a better organisation without the UK is silly. The EU functions in blocs, and the UK usually aligns with the Netherlands, and Scandinavian countries, on opening-up markets, and with the eastern European countries on resisting direct EU interference. With the UK going this will strengthen France and Germany. The former often guilty of supporting protectionist policies, the latter of overreach on EU controls. Inside the EU the UK had vetoes over things like the creation of an EU army, outside of it, it does not.
The UK had an important role as a pragmatic counterbalance to other Member States. It is a shame that it was lost in the debate how influential the UK has been since it joined the EU in policy, and general direction. But with Brexit the UK’s positive influence in the EU will be lost. This doesn’t even take into consideration that the UK is a net contributor to the budget, has some of the world’s finest universities, and gave the EU, alongside Ireland, an English speaking member state that could support its financial markets with an international pull.
Those that celebrate the UK is the fifth/sixth largest economy seem to forget we got to that position support by being a member of the EU, not despite of it. In my opinion neither the EU nor the UK will benefit from Brexit, but there was a referendum, and there is little evidence support for a second referendum has increased, so in my view Brexit we must.
The reason why no deal must be avoided at all costs is simple, if you just play through the scenario of what a no deal entails. We leave and enter WTO terms- losing all the Free Trade Agreements that we have as an EU member. Most Favoured Nation rules means that outside of an FTA, whatever tariff we apply, to one country, we must apply to all other WTO members. MFN= really bad news.
Therefore if we leave and apply say a 0% tariff to US apples, then all imported apples will have a 0% tariff. Then when we go to agree a FTA with say Australia, and the topic of apples comes up, they will say- you have nothing to offer us – we already have a 0% tariff on apples. And remember this doesn’t have to be reciprocated.
Or say we decide to have tariffs, that instantly increases the cost of our imports, makes the UK a less attractive market for investors as the cost of doing business will increase. But you say- wait! We can sign up to our own Free Trade Agreements. FTAs take a very long time to agree, sometimes negotiations can go on for decades and still not reach agreement. WTO rules will leave us completely powerless and with little leverage in FTA negotiations, as a relatively less attractive place for investment than EU countries, or countries with FTAs with the EU (Japan, Australia, Canada etc). Countries will prioritise the EU market over the UK's not because they are remaniacs, but because it is a much larger market. Businesses will seek to move at least a some of their operations to countries that support access to that wider market, ala Dyson or Nissan.
If you have professional qualifications, these will no longer be accepted in a no deal scenario, this will require another deal. You want to import goods to the EU, you have to prove to the EU's standards it is safe to do so, meanwhile also complying with any new UK regulations. Do you love red tape and bureaucracy? Then boy are you going to love no deal.
This is why no one ever advocated for this outcome in the referendum, because it is bloody nuts! Those that say businesses will sort it out. Just like German car makers have convinced the EU to go easy? Trust me, they wont. No deal terrifies businesses both in and out of the UK. It will be an unparalleled shit show, with all the grace of Leo Fortune West closing down a keeper. An intention to agree an FTA in the future framework is imperative.
Thank you for coming to my Ted talk.
We have had all this discussion on the forum before. Unfortunately you are using facts in this discussion. The vast majority here do not wish to read or hear facts. And both sides just abuse each othwr. Primary school stuff.
There have been numerous independent studies by people far more qualified than me and almost all agree Brexit will be economically detrimental to Britain. Time will tell the exact impact of Brexit.I
However, if it is proved to be a very bad move, so not expect some of the chief advocates of Brwxit in this forum to come back and admit they were mistaken.
In terms of limiting immigration it will have little effect. In any case you are 40 years too late. Take a walk up the curry mile in Manchester.
But what annoys me most is people claiming Brexit as some kind of patriotic vote. F*** off. Most working class people from a previous generation ( both my parents families included r.i.p.) who fought in the WW2 would turn in their graves to see working classes rushing to break away and support Farage Johnson, Duncan Smith, Gove The phrase lions led by donkeys springs to mind (WW1). - although weasels is a better description for that Morley crew.
I am a working class and proud to have voted remain. Nis the good news this is my last comment on this thread!
Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:56 am
Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:03 am
Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:11 am
captbirdseye wrote:I never get the whole EU army argument because what difference does it make? Our armed services have been ripped apart for years because of austerity and surely sharing resources with other countries is a better option in the long run especially with the US being a f*cking mess in terms of its foreign policy.
People talk about the EU state but we might well end up as another US state if Trump and Co get their way with deregulation. Enjoy your chlorinated chicken.
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/ ... 87b5579f64
Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:13 am
Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:22 am
Jock wrote:captbirdseye wrote:I never get the whole EU army argument because what difference does it make? Our armed services have been ripped apart for years because of austerity and surely sharing resources with other countries is a better option in the long run especially with the US being a f*cking mess in terms of its foreign policy.
People talk about the EU state but we might well end up as another US state if Trump and Co get their way with deregulation. Enjoy your chlorinated chicken.
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/ ... 87b5579f64
Your scraping the barrel now. You’ve obviously heard of NATO, you know the group we share resources with, the group that apart from ourselves, no European country meets its 2% of GDP obligation to. If Russia decides to bring some of the old communist block back into the fold what’s a European Defence Force going to do.
Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:33 am
captbirdseye wrote:Jock wrote:captbirdseye wrote:I never get the whole EU army argument because what difference does it make? Our armed services have been ripped apart for years because of austerity and surely sharing resources with other countries is a better option in the long run especially with the US being a f*cking mess in terms of its foreign policy.
People talk about the EU state but we might well end up as another US state if Trump and Co get their way with deregulation. Enjoy your chlorinated chicken.
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/ ... 87b5579f64
Your scraping the barrel now. You’ve obviously heard of NATO, you know the group we share resources with, the group that apart from ourselves, no European country meets its 2% of GDP obligation to. If Russia decides to bring some of the old communist block back into the fold what’s a European Defence Force going to do.
That great organisation that let Russia steamroll through Ukraine and the one the US has constantly complained about. This is the reason the EU are looking at its own armed forces.
Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:42 am
Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:57 am
captbirdseye wrote:The sovereignty argument is also bullshit as though we don't have it anymore, and will somehow get it back through Brexit. You do realise that we make our own laws and make changes/recommendations to EU ones. The US and China will make sure that sovereignty gets kick into touch when we when take 20 years to agree a trade deal.
Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:58 am
captbirdseye wrote:Not disagreeing but the EU can no longer rely on the Nato or the US to protect it. Hence why they want an EU army.
Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:05 pm
Calzaghes trainset wrote:captbirdseye wrote:The sovereignty argument is also bullshit as though we don't have it anymore, and will somehow get it back through Brexit. You do realise that we make our own laws and make changes/recommendations to EU ones. The US and China will make sure that sovereignty gets kick into touch when we when take 20 years to agree a trade deal.
At present our sovereignty lies with the European court of justice.
You can try and argue we make our own laws all you want but the truth is the Eu can have us in court in a heartbeat and change any of our laws.
Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:14 pm
Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:04 pm
captbirdseye wrote:Calzaghes trainset wrote:captbirdseye wrote:The sovereignty argument is also bullshit as though we don't have it anymore, and will somehow get it back through Brexit. You do realise that we make our own laws and make changes/recommendations to EU ones. The US and China will make sure that sovereignty gets kick into touch when we when take 20 years to agree a trade deal.
At present our sovereignty lies with the European court of justice.
You can try and argue we make our own laws all you want but the truth is the Eu can have us in court in a heartbeat and change any of our laws.
Which is exactly what other countries will do with our supposed trade deals. They will deregulate large parts of laws and systems for their own profit which will probably bend over backwards for.
Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:16 pm
captbirdseye wrote:Jock wrote:captbirdseye wrote:I never get the whole EU army argument because what difference does it make? Our armed services have been ripped apart for years because of austerity and surely sharing resources with other countries is a better option in the long run especially with the US being a f*cking mess in terms of its foreign policy.
People talk about the EU state but we might well end up as another US state if Trump and Co get their way with deregulation. Enjoy your chlorinated chicken.
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/ ... 87b5579f64
Your scraping the barrel now. You’ve obviously heard of NATO, you know the group we share resources with, the group that apart from ourselves, no European country meets its 2% of GDP obligation to. If Russia decides to bring some of the old communist block back into the fold what’s a European Defence Force going to do.
That great organisation that let Russia steamroll through Ukraine and the one the US has constantly complained about. This is the reason the EU are looking at its own armed forces.
Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:01 pm
Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:13 pm
Calzaghes trainset wrote:captbirdseye wrote:Calzaghes trainset wrote:captbirdseye wrote:The sovereignty argument is also bullshit as though we don't have it anymore, and will somehow get it back through Brexit. You do realise that we make our own laws and make changes/recommendations to EU ones. The US and China will make sure that sovereignty gets kick into touch when we when take 20 years to agree a trade deal.
At present our sovereignty lies with the European court of justice.
You can try and argue we make our own laws all you want but the truth is the Eu can have us in court in a heartbeat and change any of our laws.
Which is exactly what other countries will do with our supposed trade deals. They will deregulate large parts of laws and systems for their own profit which will probably bend over backwards for.
My post is nothing to do with trade at all.
You know it has nothing to do with trade but refuse to give a concession on your beloved Eu so you have answered a question that hasn’t been asked.
On top of that your answer is an opinion and not a fact.