Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:19 pm
Calzaghes trainset wrote:captbirdseye wrote:The sovereignty argument is also bullshit as though we don't have it anymore, and will somehow get it back through Brexit. You do realise that we make our own laws and make changes/recommendations to EU ones. The US and China will make sure that sovereignty gets kick into touch when we when take 20 years to agree a trade deal.
At present our sovereignty lies with the European court of justice.
You can try and argue we make our own laws all you want but the truth is the Eu can have us in court in a heartbeat and change any of our laws.
Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:29 pm
jon1959 wrote:Calzaghes trainset wrote:captbirdseye wrote:The sovereignty argument is also bullshit as though we don't have it anymore, and will somehow get it back through Brexit. You do realise that we make our own laws and make changes/recommendations to EU ones. The US and China will make sure that sovereignty gets kick into touch when we when take 20 years to agree a trade deal.
At present our sovereignty lies with the European court of justice.
You can try and argue we make our own laws all you want but the truth is the Eu can have us in court in a heartbeat and change any of our laws.
That is not the truth though. It is true that 50,000 laws enacted in the UK in the last 25 years have been derived from or influenced by EU law (which the UK helped to create), but even the most partisan Leave organisations (often advocates of widescale deregulation) like Business For Britain say that applies to up to 60% of UK law (other organisations and commentators put the % lower). And how does sovereignty lie with the ECJ? The ECJ is supposed to interpret EU law and ensure it is being fairly applied. You could say that the Commission (including UK commissioners) exercises some shared sovereignty through proposing new laws, although they have to be approved by the Council (representatives of the EU states but with votes weighted to reflect population - so the UK has one of the larger voices) and the Parliament (made up of elected MEPs from all countries - including the UK!).
It is easy enough to make a case against the purpose, maybe some laws, and the institutions of the EU (if the referendum had gone the other way I would want to see major reforms to the EU) without making exaggerated or totally inaccurate claims!
Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:34 pm
captbirdseye wrote:If that's what you believe then fair enough but don't think for one second that we will magically get through endless trade deals in a short amount time especially when we don't even have the expertise.
The only possible way would be bending over backwards for deregulation. Just look at what US lobbyists are proposing for our free trade deal.
Our own Government said we'd have free trade deals sorted and ready to sign on 29th March. I'm still looking.
Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:44 pm
Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:47 pm
Bananas wrote:#wexit
Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:51 pm
Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:01 pm
Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:58 pm
Jimmy Scoular wrote:I am feeling the heated debate should not erode one's sense of humour have a butchers at this. It's hysterical:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3TT1VE8Jq0
Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:02 pm
And pro EU people said exactly the same before we left the ERM before we didn't join the Euro and before the 2016 referendum saying the world would fall in just for voting to leave (remember Osborne's punishment budjet?). They were wrong every time.......swilsh wrote:I don’t think that people who voted to leave are morons. plenty of reasonable arguments for leaving the EU. The democratic deficit, difficulties of a two speed Europe, wanting to resist further pooling of sovereignty, believing a state should have an independent immigration policy, these are all logical arguments for choosing to leave the EU.
Leaving without a deal is not the same thing. Leaving is a barbaric act of self-harm and those claiming WTO would be better have no logic on their side. WTO terms are a terrible position to be in, and will tie our hands in any negotiations with other states in the future. The rules of Most Favoured Nation status means that we will have little to no leverage if the plums arguing for zero tariff on all imports win.
I reiterate you’re not a moron if you voted to leave. No reasonable person advocated voting for leaving with no deal during the referendum. It was supposed to be “the easiest deal in history” we were supposed to be “holding all the cards”. Arguing that no deal was what was voted for now is blatantly dishonest.
I think we should leave the EU, but there are many ways to do that which doesn’t destroy our economy for years and years to come.
Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:46 pm
Tony Blue Williams wrote:And pro EU people said exactly the same before we left the ERM before we didn't join the Euro and before the 2016 referendum saying the world would fall in just for voting to leave (remember Osborne's punishment budjet?). They were wrong every time.......swilsh wrote:I don’t think that people who voted to leave are morons. plenty of reasonable arguments for leaving the EU. The democratic deficit, difficulties of a two speed Europe, wanting to resist further pooling of sovereignty, believing a state should have an independent immigration policy, these are all logical arguments for choosing to leave the EU.
Leaving without a deal is not the same thing. Leaving is a barbaric act of self-harm and those claiming WTO would be better have no logic on their side. WTO terms are a terrible position to be in, and will tie our hands in any negotiations with other states in the future. The rules of Most Favoured Nation status means that we will have little to no leverage if the plums arguing for zero tariff on all imports win.
I reiterate you’re not a moron if you voted to leave. No reasonable person advocated voting for leaving with no deal during the referendum. It was supposed to be “the easiest deal in history” we were supposed to be “holding all the cards”. Arguing that no deal was what was voted for now is blatantly dishonest.
I think we should leave the EU, but there are many ways to do that which doesn’t destroy our economy for years and years to come.
Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:19 pm
Jimmy Scoular wrote:I am feeling the heated debate should not erode one's sense of humour have a butchers at this. It's hysterical:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3TT1VE8Jq0
Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:48 pm
Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:45 am
Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:12 am
Bluedriver wrote:A no deal brexit will remove freetrade within the EU. Under WTO rules all exports will have duty/VAT to be reclaimed. How many products are unique to the UK and cannot be manufactured elsewhere in the EU? Not many is the simple answer! Why would anybody in the EU buy from the UK when they can buy the same product under free trade conditions from elsewhere in the EU? In 2017 44% of all UK exports were to the EU, £274 billion. A no deal Brexit is a disaster for UK manufacturing and UK jobs.
Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:24 am
Igovernor wrote:Bluedriver wrote:A no deal brexit will remove freetrade within the EU. Under WTO rules all exports will have duty/VAT to be reclaimed. How many products are unique to the UK and cannot be manufactured elsewhere in the EU? Not many is the simple answer! Why would anybody in the EU buy from the UK when they can buy the same product under free trade conditions from elsewhere in the EU? In 2017 44% of all UK exports were to the EU, £274 billion. A no deal Brexit is a disaster for UK manufacturing and UK jobs.
£341 billion imported to the uk from the eu, absolutely no one knows what a no deal brexit will be like! but I do reckon that the eu will be worse off, than the uk!
Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:10 am
Bluedriver wrote:A no deal brexit will remove freetrade within the EU. Under WTO rules all exports will have duty/VAT to be reclaimed. How many products are unique to the UK and cannot be manufactured elsewhere in the EU? Not many is the simple answer! Why would anybody in the EU buy from the UK when they can buy the same product under free trade conditions from elsewhere in the EU? In 2017 44% of all UK exports were to the EU, £274 billion. A no deal Brexit is a disaster for UK manufacturing and UK jobs.
Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:16 am
Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:20 am
Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:21 am
Bluedriver wrote:Igovernor wrote:Bluedriver wrote:A no deal brexit will remove freetrade within the EU. Under WTO rules all exports will have duty/VAT to be reclaimed. How many products are unique to the UK and cannot be manufactured elsewhere in the EU? Not many is the simple answer! Why would anybody in the EU buy from the UK when they can buy the same product under free trade conditions from elsewhere in the EU? In 2017 44% of all UK exports were to the EU, £274 billion. A no deal Brexit is a disaster for UK manufacturing and UK jobs.
£341 billion imported to the uk from the eu, absolutely no one knows what a no deal brexit will be like! but I do reckon that the eu will be worse off, than the uk!
£341 split between 27 countries. Much less impact per country, per head than in the UK.
Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:22 am
rumpo kid wrote:Your beard will be down to your arse before that happens Jock..
Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:06 am
Igovernor wrote:Bluedriver wrote:A no deal brexit will remove freetrade within the EU. Under WTO rules all exports will have duty/VAT to be reclaimed. How many products are unique to the UK and cannot be manufactured elsewhere in the EU? Not many is the simple answer! Why would anybody in the EU buy from the UK when they can buy the same product under free trade conditions from elsewhere in the EU? In 2017 44% of all UK exports were to the EU, £274 billion. A no deal Brexit is a disaster for UK manufacturing and UK jobs.
£341 billion imported to the uk from the eu, absolutely no one knows what a no deal brexit will be like! but I do reckon that the eu will be worse off, than the uk!
Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:11 am
Jock wrote:Countries like Cyprus, Malta, Lithuania,Estonia, Latvia or Slovenia? Fact is Italy is bolloxed, France is not far behind and Germany is on the brink of recession, we are the biggest export market for the Netherlands we buy lots of German Cars and French wine, do you really believe other EU countries will take up the slack when we leave. Which leaves individual countries fekked because they can’t do individual trade deals with non eu states because everything has to be as a block.
Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:18 am
mistaflux75 wrote:Wow!! I cannot believe how some people on here are so insulting to others just for posting an opinion. Seems to always be the whinging, bitching remainers. Get over it, you lost, we are leaving!!
Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:56 am
Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:08 pm
Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:40 pm
Liles93 wrote:Think regardless of how people voted, we can largely agree that it hasn't been handled as well as it could. Unfortunately both the government and opposition are in turmoil right now and we've all had tunnel vision for Brexit for two years. It would not surprise me to see big changes in our electoral system after Brexit is over and implemented (whenever or however that may be!).
Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:53 pm
jon1959 wrote:Calzaghes trainset wrote:captbirdseye wrote:The sovereignty argument is also bullshit as though we don't have it anymore, and will somehow get it back through Brexit. You do realise that we make our own laws and make changes/recommendations to EU ones. The US and China will make sure that sovereignty gets kick into touch when we when take 20 years to agree a trade deal.
At present our sovereignty lies with the European court of justice.
You can try and argue we make our own laws all you want but the truth is the Eu can have us in court in a heartbeat and change any of our laws.
That is not the truth though. It is true that 50,000 laws enacted in the UK in the last 25 years have been derived from or influenced by EU law (which the UK helped to create), but even the most partisan Leave organisations (often advocates of widescale deregulation) like Business For Britain say that applies to up to 60% of UK law (other organisations and commentators put the % lower). And how does sovereignty lie with the ECJ? The ECJ is supposed to interpret EU law and ensure it is being fairly applied. You could say that the Commission (including UK commissioners) exercises some shared sovereignty through proposing new laws, although they have to be approved by the Council (representatives of the EU states but with votes weighted to reflect population - so the UK has one of the larger voices) and the Parliament (made up of elected MEPs from all countries - including the UK!).
It is easy enough to make a case against the purpose, maybe some laws, and the institutions of the EU (if the referendum had gone the other way I would want to see major reforms to the EU) without making exaggerated or totally inaccurate claims!
Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:15 pm
Tony Blue Williams wrote:mistaflux75 wrote:Wow!! I cannot believe how some people on here are so insulting to others just for posting an opinion. Seems to always be the whinging, bitching remainers. Get over it, you lost, we are leaving!!
Nearly 3 years on and most people are used to it by now and frankly it has no impact as it proves they are losing the argument. The whole EEC/EU project from the start was about deluding people by frighten them with horror stories about the alternatives.
However as the say goes "you can fool the people some of the time but you can't fool them all of the time" proves that there are many strong willed individuals in this country who won't swallow the nonsense that comes from the remain side of the argument.
And thank God for that!
Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:10 pm
Jock wrote:Liles93 wrote:Think regardless of how people voted, we can largely agree that it hasn't been handled as well as it could. Unfortunately both the government and opposition are in turmoil right now and we've all had tunnel vision for Brexit for two years. It would not surprise me to see big changes in our electoral system after Brexit is over and implemented (whenever or however that may be!).
I think both Labour and The Tory’s will split post Brexit and the two party system is finished.
Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:40 pm