The rise of the Nazi programme BBC

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The rise of the Nazi programme BBC

Postby Bonner » Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:26 am

Watched it last night, wow, they sit down democracy, shut down parliament, only wanted to know about Germany.. , encouraged in house fighting to get rid of anyone against their ideas...
Let’s hope people learn from history.
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The rise of the Nazi programme BBC

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Re: The rise of the Nazi programme BBC

Postby rumpo kid » Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:18 pm

They haven’t... Momentum are alive, well, and in Parliament.
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Re: The rise of the Nazi programme BBC

Postby BlueGog » Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:26 pm

rumpo kid wrote:They haven’t... Momentum are alive, well, and in Parliament.


The Nazis in Germany were far right! So if you want to make comparisons in Westminster think Conservative or Brexit Party.
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Re: The rise of the Nazi programme BBC

Postby rumpo kid » Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:47 pm

The principle’s the same whichever end of the spectrum.
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Re: The rise of the Nazi programme BBC

Postby Jock » Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:20 pm

BlueGog wrote:
rumpo kid wrote:They haven’t... Momentum are alive, well, and in Parliament.


The Nazis in Germany were far right! So if you want to make comparisons in Westminster think Conservative or Brexit Party.

They were National Socialists and brought in things like rent reductions in the private sector, exactly like Comrades Corbyn and McDonnell propose.
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Re: The rise of the Nazi programme BBC

Postby ealing_ayatollah » Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:42 pm

I've always thought the greatest con trick the left has ever pulled was passing off the Nazis and fascists as far right.

The nazis had big government intervention across everything from manufacturing to child raising. The whole premise was to put the state ahead of the individual.

Big government is a left wing policy.

Right wing politics is predominantly about small government, and individual liberty. This is why America is a naturally more right wing country than anywhere else because they have enshrined personal liberty into their constitution via the bill of rights.

I can only think that the assumption is because the Nazis were at war with the communists who are far left people assume the Nazis were there polar opposite. The truth is that both communism and nazism are examples of extreme left ideology and are just two sides of the same coin.

Fascism was designed to take elements from both the right and the left so at its origins would be best be termed centrist, but that too lurched to the left as it became increasingly authoritarian.
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Re: The rise of the Nazi programme BBC

Postby Stevejonesfrom62 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:18 pm

Rents should be reduced in the private sector and I'm a private landlord
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Re: The rise of the Nazi programme BBC

Postby ealing_ayatollah » Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:26 pm

Stevejonesfrom62 wrote:Rents should be reduced in the private sector and I'm a private landlord

Serious question and this is genuinely not intended as anything other than an honest curiosity but if you believe that why dont you just lower the rent you charge?

Probably something technical I'm missing and like I say not trying to be a smart alec - just curious.
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Re: The rise of the Nazi programme BBC

Postby BluebirdWhitchurch » Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:31 pm

Jock wrote:
BlueGog wrote:
rumpo kid wrote:They haven’t... Momentum are alive, well, and in Parliament.


The Nazis in Germany were far right! So if you want to make comparisons in Westminster think Conservative or Brexit Party.

They were National Socialists and brought in things like rent reductions in the private sector, exactly like Comrades Corbyn and McDonnell propose.


Anyone with a basic knowledge of the history of the time should know that the Nazis only used socialism in their name as to attract as wide a pool of support as possible, taking advantage of contemporary growing support for socialist ideals.

In reality they were the party of big business and allowed them tax breaks amongst other benefits including the absorption of Jewish business.

Politically they were probably more centrist than right/left aside from the nationalism and anti-semitism
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Re: The rise of the Nazi programme BBC

Postby Sneggyblubird » Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:53 pm

Jock wrote:
BlueGog wrote:
rumpo kid wrote:They haven’t... Momentum are alive, well, and in Parliament.


The Nazis in Germany were far right! So if you want to make comparisons in Westminster think Conservative or Brexit Party.

They were National Socialists and brought in things like rent reductions in the private sector, exactly like Comrades Corbyn and McDonnell propose.


And they were all deliriously happy for a couple of years. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Did a great line in bunkers. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: The rise of the Nazi programme BBC

Postby Jock » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:35 am

Sneggyblubird wrote:
Jock wrote:
BlueGog wrote:
rumpo kid wrote:They haven’t... Momentum are alive, well, and in Parliament.


The Nazis in Germany were far right! So if you want to make comparisons in Westminster think Conservative or Brexit Party.

They were National Socialists and brought in things like rent reductions in the private sector, exactly like Comrades Corbyn and McDonnell propose.


And they were all deliriously happy for a couple of years. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Did a great line in bunkers. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Every cloud :lol:
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Re: The rise of the Nazi programme BBC

Postby Stevejonesfrom62 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:57 am

To ealing believe it or not i do charge lower rent than most others i do actually charge the same as social housing charge their tenants
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Re: The rise of the Nazi programme BBC

Postby epping blue » Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:47 am

Stevejonesfrom62 wrote:To ealing believe it or not i do charge lower rent than most others i do actually charge the same as social housing charge their tenants



That wont stop you getting shafted by the next Labour Government. They want landlords feel like their guilty of crimes against humanity. I wont dispute that in some cases they pretty much are but they wont discriminate, good or bad your all the same.

Be ready to sell to your tenant with Thatcher level discounts and have no choice in the matter. Be ready to pay the council tax and be ready to become subservient to your tenant and the system.

Read their Land for the Many report, they really want to change our whole philosophy over property ownership in this country. Truly Marxist.
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Re: The rise of the Nazi programme BBC

Postby Stevejonesfrom62 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:55 am

Total bollox is that
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Re: The rise of the Nazi programme BBC

Postby ealing_ayatollah » Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:06 am

Stevejonesfrom62 wrote:To ealing believe it or not i do charge lower rent than most others i do actually charge the same as social housing charge their tenants


Fair enough mate. I just wasnt sure of whether there were restrictions on what you were to do as landlord or whether it is in your control.

Like I said just genuinely curious as i dont know much about how that all works and credit to you for doing that and standing by what you believe
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Re: The rise of the Nazi programme BBC

Postby CF3BLUE » Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:38 am

ealing_ayatollah wrote:I've always thought the greatest con trick the left has ever pulled was passing off the Nazis and fascists as far right.

The nazis had big government intervention across everything from manufacturing to child raising. The whole premise was to put the state ahead of the individual.

Big government is a left wing policy.

Right wing politics is predominantly about small government, and individual liberty. This is why America is a naturally more right wing country than anywhere else because they have enshrined personal liberty into their constitution via the bill of rights.

I can only think that the assumption is because the Nazis were at war with the communists who are far left people assume the Nazis were there polar opposite. The truth is that both communism and nazism are examples of extreme left ideology and are just two sides of the same coin.

Fascism was designed to take elements from both the right and the left so at its origins would be best be termed centrist, but that too lurched to the left as it became increasingly authoritarian.



So Mussolini, Franco & Hitler are all lefties?
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Re: The rise of the Nazi programme BBC

Postby ealing_ayatollah » Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:09 am

BluebirdWhitchurch wrote:
Jock wrote:
BlueGog wrote:
rumpo kid wrote:They haven’t... Momentum are alive, well, and in Parliament.


The Nazis in Germany were far right! So if you want to make comparisons in Westminster think Conservative or Brexit Party.

They were National Socialists and brought in things like rent reductions in the private sector, exactly like Comrades Corbyn and McDonnell propose.


Anyone with a basic knowledge of the history of the time should know that the Nazis only used socialism in their name as to attract as wide a pool of support as possible, taking advantage of contemporary growing support for socialist ideals.

In reality they were the party of big business and allowed them tax breaks amongst other benefits including the absorption of Jewish business.

Politically they were probably more centrist than right/left aside from the nationalism and anti-semitism


I somewhat agree with your conclusion that the Nazis were centrist more than right wing but would politely disagree with a couple of points.

Many contemporary writers at the time defined the Nazis as socialist including Orwell and Hayek two highly respected political commentators who have stood the test of time so I think it is a little bit of a simplification to say they they were socialist in name only. They undoubtedly did usurp the existing socialist party for political gains but the policies they subsequently implemented were undoubtedly of socialist nature.

I'd also say that they weren't pro big business in a capitalist manner, the Nazi charter called for the nationalization of industry much as the communists did. The only difference being Hitler felt he could control and manipulate the industrialists as opposed to Lenin who crushed them more forcefully. Still the absorption of industry into a state mechanism remains at its core the same principle founded on marxist ideologies of state over individual.

Finally, with regards to Nationalism and Anti-semitism being the reasons that the Nazis are identified as right-wing again, whilst this has been repeated so much it has become accepted that these are traits of the far right, the reality doesnt necessarily confirm this to be the case.

Marx and Engels themselves were both anti-semitic and deeply rascist (even though Marx himself had Jewish ancestory). Similarly Lenin was also a massive anti-semite. Che Guevara was a phenomenally rascist guy. So was Mao. All of whom are icons of left wing philosophy. In the US Margaret Sanger a Democrat who founded planned parenthood did so to limit the black population and was totally open about her intentions. The list goes on.

To be clear the point I'm making is not that racism and anti semitism exist only on the left, just that it is not an exclusively right wing phenomenon and so isn't a solid argument for why the nazis were right wing.

Similarly, if we think of some of the most nationalist countries today. China, Cuba, Venezuala, North Korea etc they are all socialist. Again there are equal number of right wing countries who favour nationalism Hungary, Brazil and the US come to mind so I'm not suggesting Nationalism is a left wing policy, merely that is also not necessarily a right wing policy either.

When you strip out these two points (ie Nationalism and Anti-semitism) from the argument as to why the Nazis are right wing then you all that is left is the policies of the Nazi party - which had much more in common with left wing politics than it did with the right.

Apologies for the long post. It's a question I've been thinking on for some time so I wrote more than I probably should have.
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Re: The rise of the Nazi programme BBC

Postby ealing_ayatollah » Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:37 am

CF3BLUE wrote:
ealing_ayatollah wrote:I've always thought the greatest con trick the left has ever pulled was passing off the Nazis and fascists as far right.

The nazis had big government intervention across everything from manufacturing to child raising. The whole premise was to put the state ahead of the individual.

Big government is a left wing policy.

Right wing politics is predominantly about small government, and individual liberty. This is why America is a naturally more right wing country than anywhere else because they have enshrined personal liberty into their constitution via the bill of rights.

I can only think that the assumption is because the Nazis were at war with the communists who are far left people assume the Nazis were there polar opposite. The truth is that both communism and nazism are examples of extreme left ideology and are just two sides of the same coin.

Fascism was designed to take elements from both the right and the left so at its origins would be best be termed centrist, but that too lurched to the left as it became increasingly authoritarian.



So Mussolini, Franco & Hitler are all lefties?

I'd argue there is a decent case for Hitler and Mussolini being leftists. Fascsim, Communism and Nazism are all essentially the same authoritarian tune just played in different keys - so I guess the question is if communism is widely accepted as left why aren't the other two?

Franco is a more complicated question as he evolved over time. During WW2 he was definitely in line with Hitler and Mussolini, but in the 50's he became a lot more liberally minded.
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Re: The rise of the Nazi programme BBC

Postby glas » Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:52 pm

Stevejonesfrom62 wrote:Rents should be reduced in the private sector and I'm a private landlord


Would you be happy for your tenants to be able to buy your property, whether you wanted to sell or not, at well under market value if they wanted to?
A key Corbyn policy for government.
He believes (Unbelievably) that it would increase available property for sale and reduce rents.

The exact opposite would happen as house prices would crash, many would have negative equity (not just landlords) and a reduction in available rental property would push up rents.
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Re: The rise of the Nazi programme BBC

Postby CCFCJosh75 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:01 pm

glas wrote:
Stevejonesfrom62 wrote:Rents should be reduced in the private sector and I'm a private landlord


Would you be happy for your tenants to be able to buy your property, whether you wanted to sell or not, at well under market value if they wanted to?
A key Corbyn policy for government.
He believes (Unbelievably) that it would increase available property for sale and reduce rents.

The exact opposite would happen as house prices would crash, many would have negative equity (not just landlords) and a reduction in available rental property would push up rents.

Really?

I've had a look and all I could find on his and labours policies is this (and I can't see that policy mentioned)
https://labour.org.uk/issues/housing-for-the-many/
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Re: The rise of the Nazi programme BBC

Postby rumpo kid » Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:47 pm

I always thought of the Nazis as left wing, ever since watching the World at War in the 80s. No difference between Hitler or Mao. Equally ridiculous are claims that racism only exists on the right, but as said, this claim is the preserve of the moderate left with no justification at all.
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Re: The rise of the Nazi programme BBC

Postby FOOTSOLDIER » Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:50 pm

ealing_ayatollah wrote:I've always thought the greatest con trick the left has ever pulled was passing off the Nazis and fascists as far right.

The nazis had big government intervention across everything from manufacturing to child raising. The whole premise was to put the state ahead of the individual.

Big government is a left wing policy.

Right wing politics is predominantly about small government, and individual liberty. This is why America is a naturally more right wing country than anywhere else because they have enshrined personal liberty into their constitution via the bill of rights.

I can only think that the assumption is because the Nazis were at war with the communists who are far left people assume the Nazis were there polar opposite. The truth is that both communism and nazism are examples of extreme left ideology and are just two sides of the same coin.

Fascism was designed to take elements from both the right and the left so at its origins would be best be termed centrist, but that too lurched to the left as it became increasingly authoritarian.

This ^ well said . The Nazi's were Left wing. That's how much propaganda can influence people's thoughts. BBC at it's best.
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Re: The rise of the Nazi programme BBC

Postby Stevejonesfrom62 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:31 pm

Glas please read the labour party plans on this not the daily mails then u can reply to me on it if u like
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Re: The rise of the Nazi programme BBC

Postby CCFCJosh75 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:15 pm

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.indy10 ... 0001%3famp
Hopefully that'll help with deciding what 'side' they were
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Re: The rise of the Nazi programme BBC

Postby glas » Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:28 pm

Shadow chancellor John McDonnell suggested in a conversation with the Financial Times earlier this week that Labour could introduce a “right-to-buy” scheme which would allow private tenants to buy the home they are currently renting.
There aren’t many details and it’s not an official policy yet. But the idea is modelled loosely on the scheme introduced by Margaret Thatcher that gave council tenants the right to buy their council house at a discount.
How would it work? McDonnell doesn’t elaborate much in the interview. “You’d want to establish what is a reasonable price, you can establish that and then that becomes the right to buy… I don’t think it’s complicated.”
Of course, a “reasonable price” may be quite different to the “market price”. It’s worth remembering that the official “right-to-buy” discount is up to 35%. So it certainly implies that tenants would be able to purchase at below-market value.
So not only could landlords be forced to sell up, they’d be forced to sell up at a state-specified price. That’s a very different world to the one that any of us has been used to in the last few decades.
Stevejonesfrom62 wrote:Glas please read the labour party plans on this not the daily mails then u can reply to me on it if u like


There's your answer widely repoprted. But obviously the BBC and Guardian would not dare draw peoples attention to it.
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Re: The rise of the Nazi programme BBC

Postby rumpo kid » Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:36 pm

CCFCJosh75 wrote:https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.indy100.com/article/nazi-socialist-right-wing-white-supremacists-history-twitter-mikestuchbery-7900001%3famp
Hopefully that'll help with deciding what 'side' they were


Not at all. Some of the points raised above were sound and are opinions as valid as any other, and mainly refer to policy.

I dont think 'Oi, dickhead. I'm gonna rinse you', will convince anyone of anything, other than there are some right numbnuts on the internet. Sort of thing a gangster would say in the 70's.
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Re: The rise of the Nazi programme BBC

Postby Stevejonesfrom62 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:10 pm

Ok.glas mr McDonald has suggested in the times so it is not in the labour parties plans then just a suggestion another bullshit smear at the labour party lol
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Re: The rise of the Nazi programme BBC

Postby ealing_ayatollah » Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:30 pm

CCFCJosh75 wrote:https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.indy100.com/article/nazi-socialist-right-wing-white-supremacists-history-twitter-mikestuchbery-7900001%3famp
Hopefully that'll help with deciding what 'side' they were

Mike Stuchberry is not only a moron, but a phenomenally left leaning and completely dishonest moron at that.

Completley glosses over the origins of fascism which was a specifically centrist movement designed to take elements of left and right.

He uses fascism and nazism interchangeably but then states they are the opposite of communism.

This argument falls down when we factor in the historical evidence that shows Hitler by his own admission took a lot from Marx, even referencing it in Mein Kamp and stating the reason the Weirmach fell was because its leaders hadnt read Marx.

So if Nazism = Fascism as per Stuchberry's argument. Yet both Lenin and Hitler were inspired by Marx. Yet fascism is the polar opposite of communism?

Add to this he goes with the default lazy assertion that right wing equals racism which as I pointed out earlier is also very flawed logic.

The guy is merely an obnoxious loudmouth left wing activist spoon feeding his echo chamber pseudo intellectual bullshit and doesnt have an objective bone in his body.

So no didn't really help at all in the end I'm afraid.
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