Thu May 21, 2020 2:58 pm
Fri May 22, 2020 9:26 pm
Fri May 22, 2020 9:30 pm
Fri May 22, 2020 10:25 pm
Fri May 22, 2020 11:24 pm
thomasblue wrote:The fact still remains none of these so called experts have been through this before so none of them knew the best way to deal with it.
We still dont know and it will only become apparent in a year or so when everything settles and true figures are known.
For all we know even though it looks wrong , our government may have been right with this approach. We may well have a society with a high number of people with immunity meaning we can carry on with life later without further lockdowns. Other countries may have to have further lockdowns because they have no immunity due to full lockdown approach
There are still a lot of questions to be answered
Fri May 22, 2020 11:33 pm
Fri May 22, 2020 11:52 pm
Sat May 23, 2020 6:50 am
Nuclearblue wrote:THIS IS FROM A DOCTOR WORKING IN BROADGREEN HOSPITAL:
"To all the people on here threatening to unfriend people, or wishing a second wave of COVID on people, for daring to go out in the sun yesterday, you really need to think about what you are writing, and a lot of you are health professionals as well.
What was the aim of lock down? What did every single health "expert" say was the reason to justify a lockdown? And why do we have a Flu season at all? And why have we continued to have a steady incidence rate despite being in lockdown? And why are thousands of elderly people dying in nursing homes?
The reason we had lockdown was to "flatten the curve" or buy time to increase ITU/crit care beds. Well with 4 nightingale hospitals mothballed and 50% of hospital beds lying empty, I think we have achieved that.
Not one "expert" worth his salt will tell you that we can stop a respiratory virus, and if they did they would be lying or I am deluded and we have no common cold or Flu cases every winter. So with a fifth of the country likely to have already had the virus and a health service with a massive amount of level 2 and level 3 beds, we are more than ready for a second spike, as it stands. Remember we cannot lock down forever and we need to come out, which brings me on to the Flu season.
Why do we have a flu season? The main reason we have a Flu season is because as it gets cooler people coop up and spend more time in close proximity, the population becomes denser and therefor it's easier for a virus to travel, also people tend to eat less fruit and veg and see less sunlight and our natural defences are slightly depleted, sound familiar?
The longer we stay locked down, the closer we will be to the next Flu season, so essentially you will be hitting a second spike as people begin to mix, late summer early Autumn which will be just as the next Flu seasons hits, so a second spike will lead nicely into a third and if you want to overwhelm the NHS then this is the exact way to do it.
Lastly why are so many elderly people dying of COVID, well it's largely down to the paranoia that people are displaying on platforms like facebook. GP's are not assessing elderly patients face to face, they are not being taken to hospital or they are terrified to go to hospital incase they get COVID, so they stay at home until it's too late.
Strokes are down up to 70%, where have these patient gone? MI's down 50%, Hospital attendances down 90%, where are all the falls?? But why do they all have COVID signs?
Well anyone who has worked with elderly patients, and I suspect lots of you have, will know there are multiple reasons an elderly person can develop a pneumonia (COVID symptoms). They might fall and be in pain therefore not fully expand their lungs and develop atelectasis and then pneumonia.
They may have reduced mobility, due to quarantine, and become constipated and this may push up on the diaphragm and cause atelectasis or cause them to vomit and aspirate leading to pneumonia.They may develop urinary retention and UTI, secondary to constipation, and become bed bound, causing more time in a prone position and develop a basal collapse of the lungs and again atelectasis and pneumonia. The fact that they have reduced mobility may even mean they spend more time in bed or just sitting, which again is enough to cause chest infection/pneumonia.
Strokes may not present (they aren't) and develop swallow issues and aspirate leading to pneumonia, MIs may present late and develop pulmonary oedema with a secondary infection again leading to pneumonia, and many may have a cold or a Flu (which is down 95%) and go on to develop a pneumonia.
All of the above reasons would cause a patient to have COVID symptoms and will kill elderly patients if not treated, and all of them are enough to be classed as a COVID death currently. And this is why so many nursing homes are being decimated, it's as much through fear as it is through COVID.
Before you campaign and sign petitions to lock yourselves and your family away, remember also that lock down has consequences.
The first 2 reasons are clear above, the elderly will become frail, not be treated and die in their thousands, and thousands of people will not attend A&E at all, or until it's too late and again will die. This is before you factor in the 60 thousand cancer patients that will lose their lives because of missed screening or delayed operations. And then there is the burden on mental health services and the deaths caused by domestic abuse or suicide. And that's before the biggest killer by far which will be austerity.
We are heading for the biggest recession in 300 years, the last one has cost an estimated 500000 lives, why will this one be any different? And even with the lock down measures prolonged, will we have saved any lives any way, as our frail residents face a second and third spike in quick succession.
I understand that you my be scared and its overwhelming being constantly bombarded with negativity and fear, but before you completely isolate yourselves and fall out with loved ones and friends, ask yourself is lockdown still working, and what are the potential benefits of staying locked down versus, carrying on with some semblance of a normal life?"
Sat May 23, 2020 8:50 am
Nuclearblue wrote:THIS IS FROM A DOCTOR WORKING IN BROADGREEN HOSPITAL:
"To all the people on here threatening to unfriend people, or wishing a second wave of COVID on people, for daring to go out in the sun yesterday, you really need to think about what you are writing, and a lot of you are health professionals as well.
What was the aim of lock down? What did every single health "expert" say was the reason to justify a lockdown? And why do we have a Flu season at all? And why have we continued to have a steady incidence rate despite being in lockdown? And why are thousands of elderly people dying in nursing homes?
The reason we had lockdown was to "flatten the curve" or buy time to increase ITU/crit care beds. Well with 4 nightingale hospitals mothballed and 50% of hospital beds lying empty, I think we have achieved that.
Not one "expert" worth his salt will tell you that we can stop a respiratory virus, and if they did they would be lying or I am deluded and we have no common cold or Flu cases every winter. So with a fifth of the country likely to have already had the virus and a health service with a massive amount of level 2 and level 3 beds, we are more than ready for a second spike, as it stands. Remember we cannot lock down forever and we need to come out, which brings me on to the Flu season.
Why do we have a flu season? The main reason we have a Flu season is because as it gets cooler people coop up and spend more time in close proximity, the population becomes denser and therefor it's easier for a virus to travel, also people tend to eat less fruit and veg and see less sunlight and our natural defences are slightly depleted, sound familiar?
The longer we stay locked down, the closer we will be to the next Flu season, so essentially you will be hitting a second spike as people begin to mix, late summer early Autumn which will be just as the next Flu seasons hits, so a second spike will lead nicely into a third and if you want to overwhelm the NHS then this is the exact way to do it.
Lastly why are so many elderly people dying of COVID, well it's largely down to the paranoia that people are displaying on platforms like facebook. GP's are not assessing elderly patients face to face, they are not being taken to hospital or they are terrified to go to hospital incase they get COVID, so they stay at home until it's too late.
Strokes are down up to 70%, where have these patient gone? MI's down 50%, Hospital attendances down 90%, where are all the falls?? But why do they all have COVID signs?
Well anyone who has worked with elderly patients, and I suspect lots of you have, will know there are multiple reasons an elderly person can develop a pneumonia (COVID symptoms). They might fall and be in pain therefore not fully expand their lungs and develop atelectasis and then pneumonia.
They may have reduced mobility, due to quarantine, and become constipated and this may push up on the diaphragm and cause atelectasis or cause them to vomit and aspirate leading to pneumonia.They may develop urinary retention and UTI, secondary to constipation, and become bed bound, causing more time in a prone position and develop a basal collapse of the lungs and again atelectasis and pneumonia. The fact that they have reduced mobility may even mean they spend more time in bed or just sitting, which again is enough to cause chest infection/pneumonia.
Strokes may not present (they aren't) and develop swallow issues and aspirate leading to pneumonia, MIs may present late and develop pulmonary oedema with a secondary infection again leading to pneumonia, and many may have a cold or a Flu (which is down 95%) and go on to develop a pneumonia.
All of the above reasons would cause a patient to have COVID symptoms and will kill elderly patients if not treated, and all of them are enough to be classed as a COVID death currently. And this is why so many nursing homes are being decimated, it's as much through fear as it is through COVID.
Before you campaign and sign petitions to lock yourselves and your family away, remember also that lock down has consequences.
The first 2 reasons are clear above, the elderly will become frail, not be treated and die in their thousands, and thousands of people will not attend A&E at all, or until it's too late and again will die. This is before you factor in the 60 thousand cancer patients that will lose their lives because of missed screening or delayed operations. And then there is the burden on mental health services and the deaths caused by domestic abuse or suicide. And that's before the biggest killer by far which will be austerity.
We are heading for the biggest recession in 300 years, the last one has cost an estimated 500000 lives, why will this one be any different? And even with the lock down measures prolonged, will we have saved any lives any way, as our frail residents face a second and third spike in quick succession.
I understand that you my be scared and its overwhelming being constantly bombarded with negativity and fear, but before you completely isolate yourselves and fall out with loved ones and friends, ask yourself is lockdown still working, and what are the potential benefits of staying locked down versus, carrying on with some semblance of a normal life?"
Sat May 23, 2020 9:09 am
TopCat CCFC wrote:Let's be fair - it's a free for all over here !!! People being paid while off work and in England - Do as you like .
Mixed Messages - Stay Home / Stay Safe - False Figures in Reports - Rule Breakers - Nations Not United ....
And Tonight we have this - Talking of advice ......
Dominic Cummings spoken to by police after breaching lockdown rules
Dominic Cummings, the Prime Minister's chief adviser, was spoken to by police after breaching lockdown rules by travelling from London to Durham to self-isolate at his parents' house.
Downing Street claimed at the time that Mr Cummings was "at home" in isolation after developing coronavirus symptoms, when in fact he was more than 260 miles away.
Labour said No 10 needed to provide a "very swift explanation" for Mr Cummings' actions.
"If accurate, the prime minister's chief adviser appears to have breached the lockdown rules. The government's guidance was very clear: stay at home and no non-essential travel," a spokesman said.
"The British people do not expect there to be one rule for
them and another rule for Dominic Cummings."
Sat May 23, 2020 10:34 am
Sat May 23, 2020 11:20 am
rumpo kid wrote:TopCat CCFC wrote:Let's be fair - it's a free for all over here !!! People being paid while off work and in England - Do as you like .
Mixed Messages - Stay Home / Stay Safe - False Figures in Reports - Rule Breakers - Nations Not United ....
And Tonight we have this - Talking of advice ......
Dominic Cummings spoken to by police after breaching lockdown rules
Dominic Cummings, the Prime Minister's chief adviser, was spoken to by police after breaching lockdown rules by travelling from London to Durham to self-isolate at his parents' house.
Downing Street claimed at the time that Mr Cummings was "at home" in isolation after developing coronavirus symptoms, when in fact he was more than 260 miles away.
Labour said No 10 needed to provide a "very swift explanation" for Mr Cummings' actions.
"If accurate, the prime minister's chief adviser appears to have breached the lockdown rules. The government's guidance was very clear: stay at home and no non-essential travel," a spokesman said.
"The British people do not expect there to be one rule for
them and another rule for Dominic Cummings."
I think if you dig around you'll find its the same in most countries, other than those where the people are shit scared of the police..
As for the political tit for tat, I dont even know why its being posted on a football forum. We come on here to get away from all that bollox..no chance of that these days.
Sat May 23, 2020 12:19 pm
Sat May 23, 2020 12:56 pm
ReesWestonSuperMare wrote:Lets be honest - the journalist is from the Guardian - so as a newspaper on the far left of journalism I'd be surprised if she came out in support of the Govt.
It is very very easy to be correct in hindsight and Ive not yet known anyone give the wrong advice in hindsight.
You cant base today's knowledge on yesterday's decisions. The Guardian seem to be looking everywhere for the smallest nugget of a story that may point to someone making the wrong decision - FFS - we were in the middle of a global pandemic. I never knew any global pandemic experts or virologists before this all kicked off - but now you find them everywhere in newspapers giving their opinion of what should have been done.
I dont recall hearing any of them give this advice before or as it started - perhaps Im wrong there - maybe the journalist did a piece on what she would have done
Sat May 23, 2020 1:04 pm
ReesWestonSuperMare wrote:Lets be honest - the journalist is from the Guardian - so as a newspaper on the far left of journalism I'd be surprised if she came out in support of the Govt.
It is very very easy to be correct in hindsight and Ive not yet known anyone give the wrong advice in hindsight.
You cant base today's knowledge on yesterday's decisions. The Guardian seem to be looking everywhere for the smallest nugget of a story that may point to someone making the wrong decision - FFS - we were in the middle of a global pandemic. I never knew any global pandemic experts or virologists before this all kicked off - but now you find them everywhere in newspapers giving their opinion of what should have been done.
I dont recall hearing any of them give this advice before or as it started - perhaps Im wrong there - maybe the journalist did a piece on what she would have done
Sat May 23, 2020 1:12 pm
Nuclearblue wrote:THIS IS FROM A DOCTOR WORKING IN BROADGREEN HOSPITAL:
"To all the people on here threatening to unfriend people, or wishing a second wave of COVID on people, for daring to go out in the sun yesterday, you really need to think about what you are writing, and a lot of you are health professionals as well.
What was the aim of lock down? What did every single health "expert" say was the reason to justify a lockdown? And why do we have a Flu season at all? And why have we continued to have a steady incidence rate despite being in lockdown? And why are thousands of elderly people dying in nursing homes?
The reason we had lockdown was to "flatten the curve" or buy time to increase ITU/crit care beds. Well with 4 nightingale hospitals mothballed and 50% of hospital beds lying empty, I think we have achieved that.
Not one "expert" worth his salt will tell you that we can stop a respiratory virus, and if they did they would be lying or I am deluded and we have no common cold or Flu cases every winter. So with a fifth of the country likely to have already had the virus and a health service with a massive amount of level 2 and level 3 beds, we are more than ready for a second spike, as it stands. Remember we cannot lock down forever and we need to come out, which brings me on to the Flu season.
Why do we have a flu season? The main reason we have a Flu season is because as it gets cooler people coop up and spend more time in close proximity, the population becomes denser and therefor it's easier for a virus to travel, also people tend to eat less fruit and veg and see less sunlight and our natural defences are slightly depleted, sound familiar?
The longer we stay locked down, the closer we will be to the next Flu season, so essentially you will be hitting a second spike as people begin to mix, late summer early Autumn which will be just as the next Flu seasons hits, so a second spike will lead nicely into a third and if you want to overwhelm the NHS then this is the exact way to do it.
Lastly why are so many elderly people dying of COVID, well it's largely down to the paranoia that people are displaying on platforms like facebook. GP's are not assessing elderly patients face to face, they are not being taken to hospital or they are terrified to go to hospital incase they get COVID, so they stay at home until it's too late.
Strokes are down up to 70%, where have these patient gone? MI's down 50%, Hospital attendances down 90%, where are all the falls?? But why do they all have COVID signs?
Well anyone who has worked with elderly patients, and I suspect lots of you have, will know there are multiple reasons an elderly person can develop a pneumonia (COVID symptoms). They might fall and be in pain therefore not fully expand their lungs and develop atelectasis and then pneumonia.
They may have reduced mobility, due to quarantine, and become constipated and this may push up on the diaphragm and cause atelectasis or cause them to vomit and aspirate leading to pneumonia.They may develop urinary retention and UTI, secondary to constipation, and become bed bound, causing more time in a prone position and develop a basal collapse of the lungs and again atelectasis and pneumonia. The fact that they have reduced mobility may even mean they spend more time in bed or just sitting, which again is enough to cause chest infection/pneumonia.
Strokes may not present (they aren't) and develop swallow issues and aspirate leading to pneumonia, MIs may present late and develop pulmonary oedema with a secondary infection again leading to pneumonia, and many may have a cold or a Flu (which is down 95%) and go on to develop a pneumonia.
All of the above reasons would cause a patient to have COVID symptoms and will kill elderly patients if not treated, and all of them are enough to be classed as a COVID death currently. And this is why so many nursing homes are being decimated, it's as much through fear as it is through COVID.
Before you campaign and sign petitions to lock yourselves and your family away, remember also that lock down has consequences.
The first 2 reasons are clear above, the elderly will become frail, not be treated and die in their thousands, and thousands of people will not attend A&E at all, or until it's too late and again will die. This is before you factor in the 60 thousand cancer patients that will lose their lives because of missed screening or delayed operations. And then there is the burden on mental health services and the deaths caused by domestic abuse or suicide. And that's before the biggest killer by far which will be austerity.
We are heading for the biggest recession in 300 years, the last one has cost an estimated 500000 lives, why will this one be any different? And even with the lock down measures prolonged, will we have saved any lives any way, as our frail residents face a second and third spike in quick succession.
I understand that you my be scared and its overwhelming being constantly bombarded with negativity and fear, but before you completely isolate yourselves and fall out with loved ones and friends, ask yourself is lockdown still working, and what are the potential benefits of staying locked down versus, carrying on with some semblance of a normal life?"
Sat May 23, 2020 1:15 pm
Panzermouse wrote:ReesWestonSuperMare wrote:Lets be honest - the journalist is from the Guardian - so as a newspaper on the far left of journalism I'd be surprised if she came out in support of the Govt.
It is very very easy to be correct in hindsight and Ive not yet known anyone give the wrong advice in hindsight.
You cant base today's knowledge on yesterday's decisions. The Guardian seem to be looking everywhere for the smallest nugget of a story that may point to someone making the wrong decision - FFS - we were in the middle of a global pandemic. I never knew any global pandemic experts or virologists before this all kicked off - but now you find them everywhere in newspapers giving their opinion of what should have been done.
I dont recall hearing any of them give this advice before or as it started - perhaps Im wrong there - maybe the journalist did a piece on what she would have done
The Guardian is hardly far left is it. Apart from Owen Jones they rarely had anything positive to say about the last Labour leader.
Sat May 23, 2020 2:06 pm
skidemin wrote:Panzermouse wrote:ReesWestonSuperMare wrote:Lets be honest - the journalist is from the Guardian - so as a newspaper on the far left of journalism I'd be surprised if she came out in support of the Govt.
It is very very easy to be correct in hindsight and Ive not yet known anyone give the wrong advice in hindsight.
You cant base today's knowledge on yesterday's decisions. The Guardian seem to be looking everywhere for the smallest nugget of a story that may point to someone making the wrong decision - FFS - we were in the middle of a global pandemic. I never knew any global pandemic experts or virologists before this all kicked off - but now you find them everywhere in newspapers giving their opinion of what should have been done.
I dont recall hearing any of them give this advice before or as it started - perhaps Im wrong there - maybe the journalist did a piece on what she would have done
The Guardian is hardly far left is it. Apart from Owen Jones they rarely had anything positive to say about the last Labour leader.
not the best of yardsticks.. was very difficult to find anyone with positive things to say about him ?
even lost a confidence vote by Labour MPs 172 to 40...
Sat May 23, 2020 2:23 pm
Panzermouse wrote:skidemin wrote:Panzermouse wrote:ReesWestonSuperMare wrote:Lets be honest - the journalist is from the Guardian - so as a newspaper on the far left of journalism I'd be surprised if she came out in support of the Govt.
It is very very easy to be correct in hindsight and Ive not yet known anyone give the wrong advice in hindsight.
You cant base today's knowledge on yesterday's decisions. The Guardian seem to be looking everywhere for the smallest nugget of a story that may point to someone making the wrong decision - FFS - we were in the middle of a global pandemic. I never knew any global pandemic experts or virologists before this all kicked off - but now you find them everywhere in newspapers giving their opinion of what should have been done.
I dont recall hearing any of them give this advice before or as it started - perhaps Im wrong there - maybe the journalist did a piece on what she would have done
The Guardian is hardly far left is it. Apart from Owen Jones they rarely had anything positive to say about the last Labour leader.
not the best of yardsticks.. was very difficult to find anyone with positive things to say about him ?
even lost a confidence vote by Labour MPs 172 to 40...
I was simply pointing out that the Guardian is not far left newspaper and gave an example. Easy really.
Sat May 23, 2020 3:31 pm
Sat May 23, 2020 4:07 pm
rumpo kid wrote:TopCat.. you’re right mate, I’ll avoid these threads. They’re so full of inaccuracies and hearsay, I should have known better.
Sun May 24, 2020 11:35 am
skidemin wrote:Panzermouse wrote:skidemin wrote:Panzermouse wrote:ReesWestonSuperMare wrote:Lets be honest - the journalist is from the Guardian - so as a newspaper on the far left of journalism I'd be surprised if she came out in support of the Govt.
It is very very easy to be correct in hindsight and Ive not yet known anyone give the wrong advice in hindsight.
You cant base today's knowledge on yesterday's decisions. The Guardian seem to be looking everywhere for the smallest nugget of a story that may point to someone making the wrong decision - FFS - we were in the middle of a global pandemic. I never knew any global pandemic experts or virologists before this all kicked off - but now you find them everywhere in newspapers giving their opinion of what should have been done.
I dont recall hearing any of them give this advice before or as it started - perhaps Im wrong there - maybe the journalist did a piece on what she would have done
The Guardian is hardly far left is it. Apart from Owen Jones they rarely had anything positive to say about the last Labour leader.
not the best of yardsticks.. was very difficult to find anyone with positive things to say about him ?
even lost a confidence vote by Labour MPs 172 to 40...
I was simply pointing out that the Guardian is not far left newspaper and gave an example. Easy really.
#and I was only pointing out that most labour supporters/ MPs could see he was going to hamstring them in any election..
bit like fans losing faith in and slaughtering a manager which happens frequently... going on a clubs message board reading this slaughtering and then concluding they are not Cardiff fans would be in error ?
Sun May 24, 2020 1:13 pm
Sun May 24, 2020 5:47 pm
davids wrote:The problem is that even the scientists can't agree.
Yesterday I read two different articles where one set of "experts" said that lockdown had virtually no effect on the spread of the virus and a different set of "experts" said that if we had started lockdown two weeks sooner we would have saved thousands of lives.
The government have chosen to believe the philanderer Ferguson who has a history of being wildly inaccurate with his guesses previously with regards to SARS and the foot and mouth epidemic a few years ago. If I was as shit at my job as some of these clowns seem to be I'd expect to be laughed at and sacked rather than have my guesswork used as a means of formulating government policy affecting millions of lives.
Then we have that cockwomble Drayford who despite there being only 6 new deaths yesterday in Wales due to the virus (in a population of 3.5 million) is probably sitting at home trying to work out a way of keeping Wales in lockdown for another two to three years.
Although you will be allowed to sit on a bench and eat chips if you work at the Welsh Assembly.
I never vote at elections and people ask me why. I fully appreciate that many brave men and women have died over the years to earn me the freedom to vote and believe me when I say that I am forever in their debt. What they also gave me was the freedom to choose not to vote for any of the self serving, incompetent, do what I say and not what I do bunch of absolute fucktards that make up the vast majority of politicians of all political persuasions in this country.
Fri Jun 05, 2020 9:42 pm
Sun Jun 07, 2020 8:52 pm
Sun Jun 07, 2020 8:53 pm